Morality in Bible stories that you don't understand

[excreationist]

Hi ex, I'm still interested with discussing the genealogy. (Been busy with this coronation, helping our local community event... tired me out mentally and physically).
Just need do a bit of my own research.

About Number 15 - it seems like God is harsh - though I've heard it said that it's about the law and the old covenant or something

I would ask.. which out of all the ancient nations were harshest? Was God of the bibles laws that bad in comparison to the nations who had different traditions, blood sacrifices etc. of the time?

Some other nations had child sacrifice but I think Deuteronomy 20:16-18 is worse... "But what about the cities the Lord your God is giving you as your own? Kill everything that breathes in those cities...."

 

[bilby]

If a verse seems contradictory against many other verses, that suggests the opposite -then it must mean the issue is a contextual one.

Not at all.

It could just mean that the whole thing is a worthless mess of contradictions that can't provide any moral guidance at all; A "Forer Effect" document, onto which any reader can project his or her own prejudices.

 

[Elixir]

If a verse seems contradictory against many other verses, that suggests the opposite -then it must mean the issue is a contextual one.

Not at all.

It could just mean that the whole thing is a worthless mess of contradictions that can't provide any moral guidance at all; A "Forer Effect" document, onto which any reader can project his or her own prejudices.

“Yeah maybe, but maybe the scriptures’ self referential maze of internally contradictory premises is indicative of an accurate reflection of the surpassing complexity of the universe itself, and in fact god so much as says so himself in Godsez X:XX:Xx !”

 

[James Brown]

Yes, there are nuggets of wisdom in the Bible. There are also far, far more incidents of cruelty, absurdity, and injustice in the Bible. This suggests to me that it is not a book that sprang from the head of a single author but is in fact a Wiki. The "Bible" (whatever version you hold as 'the correct one') is a mash of conflicting ideas and ideologies.

For me, the simpler and more likely explanation is that the Bible is not God's ideas about humankind, but humankind's ideas about God. God is a reflection of the believer. A barbaric people have barbaric gods. Enlightened people have enlightened gods. And there are some who insist that all those gods are exactly the same. When someone points to a horrific idea from a horrific idea, apologists are quick to shout "Look over there!" They point to the enlightened idea found elsewhere and declare that the whole thing has a enlightened theme (without consulting the original authors, of course.)

It's a sneaky trick, one that the Christian would never accept from another religion's apologist. The Book of Quran also contains nuggets of wisdom and far more passages of threats, cruelty, and absurdity. But I wager few Christians are swayed by a Muslim apologist's claims that "Well, it was a different time and place. Everyone was barbaric back then. You have to read the whole thing to get the overall theme. Look over there!"

 

[Learner]

If a verse seems contradictory against many other verses, that suggests the opposite -then it must mean the issue is a contextual one.

Not at all.

It could just mean that the whole thing is a worthless mess of contradictions that can't provide any moral guidance at all; A "Forer Effect" document, onto which any reader can project his or her own prejudices.

Not many Christians claim to have "special" gifts or powers. The 'Forer Effect' in contrast, relating to individuals who are in self-belief, grandiose delusion - make those claims.

 

[bilby]

If a verse seems contradictory against many other verses, that suggests the opposite -then it must mean the issue is a contextual one.

Not at all.

It could just mean that the whole thing is a worthless mess of contradictions that can't provide any moral guidance at all; A "Forer Effect" document, onto which any reader can project his or her own prejudices.

Not many Christians claim to have "special" gifts or powers. The 'Forer Effect' in contrast, relates to individuals who are in self-belief, grandiose delusion.

Many Christians believe that their prayers can alter reality.

So the statement "Not many Christians claim to have "special" gifts or powers" is flat out wrong right there.

 

[bilby]

It's a sneaky trick, one that the Christian would never accept from another religion's apologist.

Yeah, the referees are obviously biased; Our team doesn't commit anything like as many fouls as our darstadly opponents.
- Every sports fan ever.

 

[Learner]

If a verse seems contradictory against many other verses, that suggests the opposite -then it must mean the issue is a contextual one.

Not at all.

It could just mean that the whole thing is a worthless mess of contradictions that can't provide any moral guidance at all; A "Forer Effect" document, onto which any reader can project his or her own prejudices.

Not many Christians claim to have "special" gifts or powers. The 'Forer Effect' in contrast, relates to individuals who are in self-belief, grandiose delusion.

Many Christians believe that their prayers can alter reality.

Christians pray in the belief, that someone else has that ability to answer their prays.

So the statement "Not many Christians claim to have "special" gifts or powers" is flat out wrong right there.

I suppose so, depending on the numbers criteria. More than ten or a hundred is still a lot. Several thousands... indeed that's many. Out of 2.4 billion Christians in the world, I'm not sure if many is comparably the same, statistically.

 

[bilby]

Christians pray in the belief, that someone else has that ability to answer their prays.

...and will act on their requests.

The mechanism isn't important; The belief that they are different from non-Christians in significant ways is easily sufficient for the Forer Effect to kick in.

 

[bilby]

I suppose so, depending on the numbers criteria. More than ten or a hundred is still a lot. Several thousands... indeed that's many. Out of 2.4 billion Christians in the world, I'm not sure if many is comparably the same, statistically.

What proportion of Christians do you think believe that prayer works?

It's likely more than three quarters of them, and probably more than 90%.

What about you? Do you believe that your prayers are answered, at least some of the time?

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

If a verse seems contradictory against many other verses, that suggests the opposite -then it must mean the issue is a contextual one.

Not at all.

It could just mean that the whole thing is a worthless mess of contradictions that can't provide any moral guidance at all; A "Forer Effect" document, onto which any reader can project his or her own prejudices.

Not many Christians claim to have "special" gifts or powers. The 'Forer Effect' in contrast, relating to individuals who are in self-belief, grandiose delusion - make those claims.

For years now, I heard right winged evangelicals claim to have the God given gift of "discernment". The gift of always being right about religious claims. Thanks to God. A TV evangelist mind trick. How can they be wrong if granted discernment by God?

 

[Learner]

Hi ex, I'm still interested with discussing the genealogy. (Been busy with this coronation, helping our local community event... tired me out mentally and physically).
Just need do a bit of my own research.

About Number 15 - it seems like God is harsh - though I've heard it said that it's about the law and the old covenant or something

I would ask.. which out of all the ancient nations were harshest? Was God of the bibles laws that bad in comparison to the nations who had different traditions, blood sacrifices etc. of the time?

Some other nations had child sacrifice but I think Deuteronomy 20:16-18 is worse... "But what about the cities the Lord your God is giving you as your own? Kill everything that breathes in those cities...."

If you read, these are last resort reactions (from God) to actions, from the enemies of the Hebrews, who constantly wage war with them and their God, therefore, finally, it ends there... judgement. It's always the narrative...God only ever reacts to actions against Him and His people. Other nations 'despite their customs and pagan worships' are 'left alone', they don't attempt to wage war with the Hebrews. (Some who are neighbouring tribes to the enemies of the Hebrews have sided with the Hebrews)

 

[Learner]

Yes, there are nuggets of wisdom in the Bible. There are also far, far more incidents of cruelty, absurdity, and injustice in the Bible. This suggests to me that it is not a book that sprang from the head of a single author but is in fact a Wiki. The "Bible" (whatever version you hold as 'the correct one') is a mash of conflicting ideas and ideologies.

One could read a book on WW2, the reports of the times, not really that long ago - there upon reading you'll find far far more cruelty and atrocities. Result: the death of 70 million!

I don't get the idea that having more than one author should supposedly be a credible "disadvantage", in fact it's the reverse in regards to the bible. For example: When atheists often ask Christians, "why is Joseph Smith, or Islam any different to the bible etc.?" It's different because of the very fact, there's more than one author, i.e. the emphasis on the importance of there being two or more witnesses and testimonies in the bible, whereas the other two founders of those mentioned faiths 'were all alone!' Which is to me, definitely a credibility disadvantage.

For me, the simpler and more likely explanation is that the Bible is not God's ideas about humankind, but humankind's ideas about God. God is a reflection of the believer. A barbaric people have barbaric gods.

Unfortunately, with the flawed notion for comparisons, the biblical times of Hebrews, who were but one nation among many others of the times, which by your statement, should portray, the whole world of nations back then, should all be barbaric too - when comparing to today. It sort of makes your argument have less weight, so to speak, being that barbarism was universal, and not soley a Hebrew thing ( when you're not being picky and choosey).

Comparing the times of the past to mean you are morally superior in the future; I don't get. By this logic, you are then able to make claims, "you are also morally superior to those people who were involved in WW1 and WW2".

People still commit evil atrocities to other people in the world today!

Enlightened people have enlightened gods. And there are some who insist that all those gods are exactly the same. When someone points to a horrific idea from a horrific idea, apologists are quick to shout "Look over there!" They point to the enlightened idea found elsewhere and declare that the whole thing has a enlightened theme (without consulting the original authors, of course.)

It's a sneaky trick, one that the Christian would never accept from another religion's apologist. The Book of Quran also contains nuggets of wisdom and far more passages of threats, cruelty, and absurdity. But I wager few Christians are swayed by a Muslim apologist's claims that "Well, it was a different time and place. Everyone was barbaric back then. You have to read the whole thing to get the overall theme. Look over there!"

Look at the previous responses above to apply here .

 

[bilby]

Hi ex, I'm still interested with discussing the genealogy. (Been busy with this coronation, helping our local community event... tired me out mentally and physically).
Just need do a bit of my own research.

About Number 15 - it seems like God is harsh - though I've heard it said that it's about the law and the old covenant or something

I would ask.. which out of all the ancient nations were harshest? Was God of the bibles laws that bad in comparison to the nations who had different traditions, blood sacrifices etc. of the time?

Some other nations had child sacrifice but I think Deuteronomy 20:16-18 is worse... "But what about the cities the Lord your God is giving you as your own? Kill everything that breathes in those cities...."

If you read, these are last resort reactions (from God) to actions, from the enemies of the Hebrews, who constantly wage war with them and their God, therefore, finally, it ends there... judgement. It's always the narrative...God only ever reacts to actions against Him and His people. Other nations 'despite their customs and pagan worships' are 'left alone', they don't attempt to wage war with the Hebrews. (Some who are neighbouring tribes to the enemies of the Hebrews have sided with the Hebrews)

God seems to believe in collective punishment. What did the babies and children in those cities do to the Hebrews?

The God described in the Bible makes Vladimir Putin look like a paragon of reasonableness and restraint.

 

[excreationist]

God seems to believe in collective punishment. What did the babies and children in those cities do to the Hebrews?

I’m sure “kill everything that breathes” also means to kill all of the animals too…
People in the promised land, such as the Canaanites, were cursed in a passage from my first post in this thread.
There’s also:
Exodus 20:5

You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

 

[excreationist]

After the verses in Deut 20:16-18 about killing everything that breathes it makes an important point:

Suppose you surround a city and get ready to attack it. And suppose you fight against it for a long time in order to capture it. Then don’t chop down its trees and destroy them. You can eat their fruit. So don’t cut them down. Are the trees people? So why should you attack them? But you can cut down trees that you know aren’t fruit trees. You can build war machines out of their wood. You can use them until you capture the city you are fighting against.

 

[DBT]

Invasion and conquest is not defense. As the story goes, God had his people invade and conquer, where God orders slaughter and genocide, rape and destruction.

 

[Learner]

God seems to believe in collective punishment. What did the babies and children in those cities do to the Hebrews?

I’m sure “kill everything that breathes” also means to kill all of the animals too…

Killing animals too, unfortunately yes, which was deemed necessary. Life in ancient times had many strange practices that were abominable to God, if you were unaware.

Leviticus 20:15–16 (ESV)
15 If a man lies with an animal, he shall surely be put to death, and you shall kill the animal. 16 If a woman approaches any animal and lies with it, you shall kill the woman and the animal; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

Exodus 22:19
19 “Whoever lies with an animal shall be put to death

Leviticus 18:23 - Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion

Deuteronomy 27:21 - Cursed be he that lieth with any manner of beast. And all the people shall say, Amen

People in the promised land, such as the Canaanites, were cursed in a passage from my first post in this thread.
There’s also:
Exodus 20:5

You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

continuing...

Exodus 20:6
but showing favor to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

You see.. God is talking to His own people here, the Israelites, where in Exodus 20:5 which you highlight, are where the commandments' and covenants between God and His people take place.

What God did for the Israelites in Exodus 20:1:

I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

 

[steve_bank]

Israel, Egypt, China anmost or all civilizations used a ritdeity to justify actions.

The Jewish scripture is generally no different than other culture in general. Justify conquest and aggression.

Modern Israeli conservves use scripture to justify actions against Palestinians foro whom they siezed the land of modern Isrea by forcel. God gave it to us, it is ours.

As has been posted many times, allegedly a loving god destroyed surface life out of anger and disappointment with a great flood.

There is little of a morality or justice at least in our modern sensibiliries in rhe bible.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Actually only a small bit of Hebrew scripture was about justifying their conquests. The remainder is justifying their religion in spite of them being conquested repeatedly.