Morality in Bible stories that you don't understand

[DBT]

Seem immoral? The actions attributed to God are immoral by the very same standards that are given in the bible. Thou shalt not kill....yet all of Job's family and livestock are killed over a wager.

Does that seem immoral according to the commandments, or is it clearly immoral?

The NIV is meant to be more accurate and in Exodus 20:13 it says "You shall not murder" (which involves human killing). The commandments were made for humans, not for God. Many Christians, including intelligent ones, believe that God is never immoral and can give fairly good reasons for this belief, at least in the opinion of other Christians.

Job's familiy were murdered over a wager, the first born of Egypt were murdered because God had hardened the Pharaohs heart.....morality? I don't think so.

 

[excreationist]

Job's familiy were murdered over a wager, the first born of Egypt were murdered because God had hardened the Pharaohs heart.....morality? I don't think so.

The definition of "murder" on Google:

the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another

It is talking about the killer having to be a human.

 

[James Brown]

According to the opinion of other Christians, many Christians believe something about God.

Not a very compelling argument, in my view.

 

[James Brown]

Richard Nixon famously said, "When the president does it, it's not illegal."

Many Christians have said, "When God does it, it's not immoral."

See the difference?

 

[bilby]

The commandments were made for humans, not for God.

So much for an absolute moral standard, then.

 

[Thomas II]

Seem immoral? The actions attributed to God are immoral by the very same standards that are given in the bible. Thou shalt not kill....yet all of Job's family and livestock are killed over a wager.

Does that seem immoral according to the commandments, or is it clearly immoral?

The NIV is meant to be more accurate and in Exodus 20:13 it says "You shall not murder" (which involves human killing). The commandments were made for humans, not for God. Many Christians, including intelligent ones, believe that God is never immoral and can give fairly good reasons for this belief, at least in the opinion of other Christians.

Job's familiy were murdered over a wager, the first born of Egypt were murdered because God had hardened the Pharaohs heart.....morality? I don't think so.

Yeah, totally immoral, and even more IF this was "god"...It shows premeditation...

 

[excreationist]

The commandments were made for humans, not for God.

So much for an absolute moral standard, then.

The rules can change - e.g. about whether people who work on the Sabbath should be put to death... but the point is that God makes the rules and he is apparently righteous and just.

 

[bilby]

The commandments were made for humans, not for God.

So much for an absolute moral standard, then.

The rules can change - e.g. about whether people who work on the Sabbath should be put to death... but the point is that God makes the rules and he is apparently righteous and just.

The point is that whether a rule is righteous or just is determined by looking at the rule, not at the individual who made the rule.

Immoral acts cannot become moral just because the individual committing them is powerful.

 

[DBT]

Job's familiy were murdered over a wager, the first born of Egypt were murdered because God had hardened the Pharaohs heart.....morality? I don't think so.

The definition of "murder" on Google:

the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another

It is talking about the killer having to be a human.

The stories involve premeditation. Omniscience means knowing precisely what you are going to do for the rest of your existence. The slaughter of the children of Egypt, etc, is therefore premeditated.

 

[excreationist]

The point is that whether a rule is righteous or just is determined by looking at the rule, not at the individual who made the rule.

But a faithful Christian wouldn't be able to say that God has done immoral things - even if it involves making a relatively innocent person suffer in hell for ever and ever. I see the issue of morality in the Bible as pretty much the ultimate test of a believer's character.

Immoral acts cannot become moral just because the individual committing them is powerful.

God is also apparently infinitely wise and perhaps the human mind isn't capable of fully understanding his wisdom.

 

[excreationist]

The definition of "murder" on Google:

the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another

It is talking about the killer having to be a human.

The stories involve premeditation. Omniscience means knowing precisely what you are going to do for the rest of your existence. The slaughter of the children of Egypt, etc, is therefore premeditated.

The killing isn't unlawful though - similar to how you can kill in times of war.

 

[Thomas II]

Let's take the case of "god" telling Abraham to sacrifice his son, Isaac, just to see if Abraham would obey...
Abraham was ready to do it...He passed the test...
Imagine the feelings in Isaac's mind...Probably scared shitless...
Was it moral of "god" to do that to Isaac?...Was it fair of "god" to do that to Isaac?
Never mind if it was fair of "god" to put Abraham to such a test...
Isaac would have been the one dying...
Abraham would have passed the test...God would have been satisfied with his level of obedience...
But Isaac would have been DEAD...
Hello?...What kind of wisdom is that?...What kind of justice is that?...

(This is from Genesis 22...)

Genesis 22​

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King James Version​

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22 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.
2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
3 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him.
4 Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off.
5 And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.
6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.
7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?
8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
9 And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood.
10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.
11 And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.
14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen.
15 And the angel of the Lord called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
19 So Abraham returned unto his young men, and they rose up and went together to Beersheba; and Abraham dwelt at Beersheba.

 

[bilby]

But a faithful Christian wouldn't be able to say that God has done immoral things

Sure. Because Christian faith values belief that 'God is good', above logic, reason, and consistency.

To believe both that God is good, and that the Bible accurately describes his behaviour, is to believe a contradiction.

Christianity requires its adherents to accept contradictory information, which is absurd; But that's the point. To invert Voltaire, if you want to be able to command atrocities, first you must make people believe absurdities.

Christianity is, primarily, a tool to increase the power of popes and kings. Everything else is just baggage.

 

[DBT]

The definition of "murder" on Google:

the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another

It is talking about the killer having to be a human.

The stories involve premeditation. Omniscience means knowing precisely what you are going to do for the rest of your existence. The slaughter of the children of Egypt, etc, is therefore premeditated.

The killing isn't unlawful though - similar to how you can kill in times of war.

What is lawful is not necessarily moral or ethical. In some societies, torture was lawful, being drawn and quartered, boiled, burnt, flayed.....all lawful - but was it moral or ethical?

 

[Thomas II]

The definition of "murder" on Google:

the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another

It is talking about the killer having to be a human.

The stories involve premeditation. Omniscience means knowing precisely what you are going to do for the rest of your existence. The slaughter of the children of Egypt, etc, is therefore premeditated.

The killing isn't unlawful though - similar to how you can kill in times of war.

What is lawful is not necessarily moral or ethical. In some societies, torture was lawful, being drawn and quartered, boiled, burnt, flayed.....all lawful - but was it moral or ethical?

Yes, was the Holy Inquisition moral or ethical?

 

[Thomas II]

Who told Abraham to sacrifice his son, Isaac? It was YHWH...

https://www.thebiblejourney.org/printer-friendly.php?page_id=611

 

[DBT]

Who ordered the stoning execution of the stick gatherer....


"While the people of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day...And the Lord said to Moses, 'The man shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.' And all the congregation brought him outside the camp, and stoned him to death with stones, as the Lord commanded Moses." Numbers 15:32


Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Exodus 31:15

 

[bilby]

The definition of "murder" on Google:

the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another

It is talking about the killer having to be a human.

The stories involve premeditation. Omniscience means knowing precisely what you are going to do for the rest of your existence. The slaughter of the children of Egypt, etc, is therefore premeditated.

The killing isn't unlawful though - similar to how you can kill in times of war.

What is lawful is not necessarily moral or ethical. In some societies, torture was lawful, being drawn and quartered, boiled, burnt, flayed.....all lawful - but was it moral or ethical?

Yes, was the Holy Inquisition moral or ethical?

Of course it was. If the suspect wasn't actually a heretic, God wouldn't have placed the suspicion of his heresy into the inquisitor's mind.

Suspicion is therefore proof of guilt, and all that remains is to find out how much torture is necessary to obtain a confession. Obviously, a confession is necessary, otherwise the executed heretic would never be forgiven.

 

[Learner]

For me, I wouldn't have taken to the OT, if it weren't for Jesus, who by entering into the biblical epic of the NT, as I see it, 'validates' the OT. Notably, He didn't condemn Moses or the scriptures but instead, vouches for them instead. Jesus does condemn 'false preaching', 'teachings' and 'misrepresentations', foreseeing the future after His time on earth. Henceforth....I realised by that... I just didn't understand the theology then as compared to today - which I believe is the case now, by some posts.

It's kind of hard to justify the immorality of the OT. Even the terms and condition for salvation given in the NT is hard to justify...."believe in Jesus as your saviour or suffer the penalty of failure to comply" is hardly an example of morality or justice.

To all Christians, Jesus is the 'moral authority'. He gives a different perspective on God than how humans perceive to understand.

Quite simply, If Jesus is commanding us to 'Love God the Father with all our might' etc.. It implies or indicates to me, the human perspective of God, being charged with immorality, is then completely wrong or false.

(Of course, its up to the believers of Christ to defend that position, against the allegation perspectives, who in turn, should be critiquing the critics, so to speak, which can be an interesting discussion for all, and it certainly makes me read the bible a little more thanks to these allegation arguments).

 

[excreationist]

Let's take the case of "god" telling Abraham to sacrifice his son, Isaac, just to see if Abraham would obey...

There is a similar story in Judges 11 which might even be worse....

Bible Gateway passage: Judges 11 - New International Reader's Version

Jephthah was a mighty warrior. He was from the land of Gilead. His father’s name was Gilead. Jephthah’s mother was a prostitute. Gilead’s wife also had sons by him. When they had grown up, they drove Jephthah away. “You aren’t going to get any share of our family’s property,” they said. “You are...

www.biblegateway.com

30 Jephthah made a promise to the Lord. Jephthah said, “Hand the Ammonites over to me. 31 If you do, here’s what I’ll do when I come back from winning the battle. Anything that comes out the door of my house to meet me will belong to the Lord. I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.”

32 Then Jephthah went over to fight against the Ammonites. The Lord handed them over to him.

34 Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah. And guess who came out to meet him. It was his daughter! She was dancing to the beat of tambourines. She was his only child. He didn’t have any other sons or daughters. 35 When Jephthah saw her, he was so upset that he tore his clothes. He cried out, “Oh no, my daughter! You have filled me with trouble and sorrow. I’ve made a promise to the Lord. And I can’t break it.”

36 “My father,” she replied, “you have given your word to the Lord. So do to me just what you promised to do. The Ammonites were your enemies. And the Lord has paid them back for what they did to you. 37 But please do one thing for me,” she continued. “Give me two months to wander around in the hills. Let me weep there with my friends. I want to do that because I’ll never get married.”

38 “You may go,” he said. He let her go for two months. She and her friends went into the hills. They were filled with sadness because she would never get married. 39 After the two months were over, she returned to her father. He did to her just what he had promised to do. And she was a virgin.

So that became a practice in Israel. 40 Each year the young women of Israel go away for four days. They do it in honor of the daughter of Jephthah. He was from the land of Gilead.

Jephthah winning the battle implies that God wants him to sacrifice his daughter. And God (or his angel) didn't stop Jephthah from going through with it....