• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Wealth Redistribution or Wealth Return?

Rhea

Cyborg with a Tiara
Staff member
Joined
Jan 31, 2001
Messages
14,956
Location
Recluse
Basic Beliefs
Humanist
I’m reading an article that mentions “Wealth Redistribition” as an outcome of progressive policies and it got me wondering; Is it a redistribution of wealth from its “rightful” owners, or is it really a return of the wealth TO the “rightful” owners?


When one thinks about, for example, CEOs who have massive incomes and hence wealth, one is obliged, IMHO to include the people who actuially made the thing. Without the thing, there are no sales. Without the person who turned one material into another, there is no thing.

No CEO could make all the semi-conductors. They need the people who make the designs, the people whob assemble the precision equimpent, the people who machine the precision equipment, the people who mine the materials that are machined.

Entrepreneurs have proven that they can make things without a CEO and make at least as much as they would make in a large company. But no CEO has ever proved that they could make as much without the workers - in other words, they have never proved that without skimming off the labor of others, they could not possibly be worth millions.


So social programs like progressive taxation are a return of money earned by labor back into the pockets of labor - where it was earned.
 
Decades ago, a CEO had a salary about X 60 that of an average employee. Now it has crept up to about X 350 that of an average worker. Plus bonuses, big perks, golden parachutes et al. Yes, there has been wealth redistribution. To the robber baron class.

Wealth redistribution is a buzzword the drives MAGATs crazy. Marxism! Socialism Robber baron capitalism is a better framing phrase. Vulture capitalism, income equality.
 
I think this is best looked at from the beginning. You didn't just materialize as a CEO. You were someone with an idea.

Progressive taxation? Definitely. Pass it on to heirs? Definitely not. But this "you didn't build that" shit is just wrong. The person with the idea that eventually became a publicly traded company did build that. They surely made some critical hires along the way that helped build that but these hires did not start a company, did they? The person with the idea did. The person that went in debt up to their eyeballs. The person who put their family's livelihood on the line. The person who spent years getting four hours of sleep a night worrying about the company and the employees livelihood. The person who missed so much of their children growing up.

So now you're old and the company is doing fine. And someone is saying, you didn't build that. That the company doesn't need you to function. Well, yeah. That's what a successful company is, and you built it into that.
 
I think this is best looked at from the beginning. You didn't just materialize as a CEO. You were someone with an idea.

Progressive taxation? Definitely. Pass it on to heirs? Definitely not. But this "you didn't build that" shit is just wrong. The person with the idea that eventually became a publicly traded company did build that. They surely made some critical hires along the way that helped build that but these hires did not start a company, did they? The person with the idea did. The person that went in debt up to their eyeballs. The person who put their family's livelihood on the line. The person who spent years getting four hours of sleep a night worrying about the company and the employees livelihood. The person who missed so much of their children growing up.

So now you're old and the company is doing fine. And someone is saying, you didn't build that. That the company doesn't need you to function. Well, yeah. That's what a successful company is, and you built it into that.
So, do you not believe in families passing wealth down to the next generation?

Should a family not be able to pass the family home/store/silver/company/farm/what have you to the next generation?

Lots and lots of people live for years on 4 hours of sleep—not just owners or entrepreneurs or CEOs. Lots and lots of people give up time with their families, work back breaking hours —multiple jobs, even, just to keep that family fed and housed. Their labor makes CEOs wealthy. They hope to keep their own families fed and housed and healthy. Their families’ livelihood is on the line with every decision and every whim of the CEO.

Currently we have a class of billionaire ‘entrepreneurs’ who basically act as unelected potentates, and they’re aiming to claim space as their personal kingdoms. Without any input or checks and balances of the people who provide all the infrastructure that allowed them to amass their enormous wealth.
 
The person with the idea that eventually became a publicly traded company did build that.
Very few CEOs are the ones who started the company...
Well, you're talking to one right now. Here's a link of few larger companies where the CEO was the founder:


Most CEOs either founded their company or they rose in the ranks and became majority shareholder over time.
 
. You didn't just materialize as a CEO. You were someone with an idea.
As explained in the OP. There is a big difference between the corporate CEO and the entrepreneur founder who invents an idea that creates wealth. (Musk, Besos, Jobs)

As an example of the corporate overpaid CEO, Mary Bara did not invent anything nor did she have any ideas of her own. She certainty did not come up with the automobile. Yet she is CEO of GM mostly because she came up through the ranks and has a vagina. So there are few CEO's creating the value they are worth. And they have evolved to legally scam the shareholders out of their equity.

In a better world, these mercenary CEO's would not exist but because they do they should be taxed much higher than ordinary labor IMO.
 
Last edited:
The person with the idea that eventually became a publicly traded company did build that.
Very few CEOs are the ones who started the company...
And? What, keeping an operation going and keeping its eye on the ball after the originator dies/retires/gets bored isn't a skill that contributes to production?
 
. You didn't just materialize as a CEO. You were someone with an idea.
As explained in the OP. There is a big difference between the corporate CEO and the entrepreneur founder who invents an idea that creates wealth. (Musk, Besos, Jobs)
Even they have to answer for whether they now do 1000 times the work they used to. The only way “their idea” makes millions is if thousands of people make the thing for them.


I think this is best looked at from the beginning. You didn't just materialize as a CEO. You were someone with an idea.
That idea doesn’t make millions of dollars. That idea plus the labor of other people makes millions. You can’t do it without them. You are selling something that their labor created. You skim off a percent. Whatever that product makes, the CEO is claiming that during start-up, half of the effort is his. And during mass production, still half of the effort is his. And that is just not factual. When the engineering department, without the CEO’s input improves the yield from 23% to 80%, that is not the effort of the CEO. That’s the effort of the engineers and the operators. But the CEO still considers their efforts to be his effort.

No start-up company goes from garage to mass production without the additional ideas of a lot of people, and the additional (and usually more efficient) labor of a lot of people. Not one.

As an example of the corporate overpaid CEO, Mary Bara did not invent anything nor did she have any ideas of her own. She certainty did not come up with the automobile. Yet she is CEO of GM mostly because she came up through the ranks and has a vagina.
What the actual fuck? Why did you decide to bring up this? What possible evidence could you have that she ONLY got to where she is because she’s a woman? When women are so incredibly under-represented as CEOs, what POSSIBLE argument could you make that being a women makes becoming a CEO more likely?

This was an asshole - and utterly off-topic - thing to say. Shame on you.
So there are very few CEO's who really do create the value they are being paid who have evolved to legally scam the shareholders out of their equity.
And yet
Most CEOs either founded their company or they rose in the ranks and became majority shareholder over time.
Both of you need to cite some evidence.



In a better world, these mercenary CEO's would not exist but because they do they should be taxed much higher than ordinary labor IMO.
In a better world, they would be prevented from skimming so much from their workforce in the first place, IMHO.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
. You didn't just materialize as a CEO. You were someone with an idea.
As explained in the OP. There is a big difference between the corporate CEO and the entrepreneur founder who invents an idea that creates wealth. (Musk, Besos, Jobs)

As an example of the corporate overpaid CEO, Mary Bara did not invent anything nor did she have any ideas of her own. She certainty did not come up with the automobile. Yet she is CEO of GM mostly because she came up through the ranks and has a vagina. So there are few CEO's creating the value they are worth. And they have evolved to legally scam the shareholders out of their equity.

In a better world, these mercenary CEO's would not exist but because they do they should be taxed much higher than ordinary labor IMO.
Uh, Musk did not invent an idea that created wealth. He purchased other people's ideas. Jobs is the one who is always mentioned but he would not have gotten far without his cofounder Wozniak. I'm not sure where Bezos would have gotten without his wife but he certainly did build his business on screwing his suppliers. Hard.
 
The person with the idea that eventually became a publicly traded company did build that.
Very few CEOs are the ones who started the company...
And? What, keeping an operation going and keeping its eye on the ball after the originator dies/retires/gets bored isn't a skill that contributes to production?
What really makes a company profitable are individual decisions that it makes. Every person in a company makes a decision. But the CEO generally makes the most. The CEO and her team also generally make the strategic decisions that drive the company.
 
. You didn't just materialize as a CEO. You were someone with an idea.
As explained in the OP. There is a big difference between the corporate CEO and the entrepreneur founder who invents an idea that creates wealth. (Musk, Besos, Jobs)

As an example of the corporate overpaid CEO, Mary Bara did not invent anything nor did she have any ideas of her own. She certainty did not come up with the automobile.
What evidence do you have that Mary Barra didn't have any ideas of her own? Before she became CEO she was a successful electrical engineer; it's hard to do that if you don't have ideas. And as for entrepreneur founders, David Buick didn't come up with the automobile either. Most sophisticated products are invented by thousands of people, each thinking up a few improvements on what came before. Even Isaac Newton stood on the shoulders of giants.
 
I’m reading an article that mentions “Wealth Redistribition” as an outcome of progressive policies and it got me wondering; Is it a redistribution of wealth from its “rightful” owners, or is it really a return of the wealth TO the “rightful” owners?
Did the poor people the progressives hand the wealth over to have it previously, before the progressives took it away from the rich people they redistributed it from? When the wealth in question is newly created wealth, the output of some productive enterprise, as opposed to preexisting wealth such as land, the poor people never had that wealth in the first place. Consequently, it can hardly be a "return" to them. You are peddling a fairy tale of zero-sum-game economic thinking.

When one thinks about, for example, CEOs who have massive incomes and hence wealth, one is obliged, IMHO to include the people who actuially made the thing. Without the thing, there are no sales. Without the person who turned one material into another, there is no thing.
What's your point? Without the CEO -- the person who manages the whole process and sees to it that every person who turns one material into another has access to the one material and turns it into the correct other material and hands the result off to the right third person who knows how to identify a fourth person who wants it and is willing to pay for it, and sees to it that all four of those people come out ahead on their respective deals -- there are no sales.

Production is a synergistic mechanism and all the participants are contributing to its success. That's why when political activists take power in a country and seize control of all the productive processes and decide some of the participants are parasites and get rid of those people, production always plummets and they usually bring on a famine. And yet this empirical observation never seems to cause the true believers to call into question their premise that everyone whose contribution they don't understand must necessarily be a parasite.

No CEO could make all the semi-conductors. They need the people who make the designs, the people whob assemble the precision equimpent, the people who machine the precision equipment, the people who mine the materials that are machined.
No worker could make all the semiconductors.

Entrepreneurs have proven that they can make things without a CEO
Oh for the love of god! An entrepreneur is a CEO. You think you can prove the function is unnecessary by renaming it?

and make at least as much as they would make in a large company.
Um, just how many entrepreneurs do you think make as much as the non-entrepreneurial CEOs of no-longer-entrepreneurial companies? Comparing the extreme tail end of one Gaussian distribution with the peak of another is not an apples-to-apples comparison. There's a reason companies usually stop being entrepreneurial when they get large. Building from scratch and further expanding an already large operation are different problems with different solutions needing different skill sets.

But no CEO has ever proved that they could make as much without the workers
:rolleyesa:
And no Darwinist has ever proved that a dinosaur could evolve into a man. You have a cartoon image of capitalism; it isn't capitalists' job to prove your incorrect picture of capitalism is correct. What CEO ever claimed he could make as much without the workers? Of course CEOs need workers. That's why they pay them! It's the left-wingers claiming workers don't need CEOs too who have something to prove.

- in other words, they have never proved that without skimming off the labor of others, they could not possibly be worth millions.
And the Labor Theory of Value rears its idiotic head again. That's not "in other words"; that's a completely different claim. How the bejesus do you think you can leap from "they can't make as much without" to "they're skimming off"?

Forget the CEO for a moment. Let's imagine the CEOless ownerless pinmaking co-op of collectivists' dreams -- just ten workers dividing up the labor with one making wire and one sharpening it and one making pinheads and one attaching them to pins and so forth. Not one of those people has ever proved he could make as much without the others. They can't. If one of them tries to make pins all by himself he won't make anywhere near a tenth as many pins. They have an efficient synergistic interdependent system. So according to the idiotic inference rule you applied above, the workers are all "skimming off" one another. That's an absurd conclusion. Therefore your inference rule is wrong. Q.E.D.

The Labor Theory of Value is the economic equivalent of the Qi theory of medicine.

So social programs like progressive taxation are a return of money earned by labor back into the pockets of labor - where it was earned.
Entirely apart from the errors in your reasoning about how capitalism works, um, has it occurred to you that the “wealth redistribition as an outcome of progressive policies" is generally not targeted at handing Mary Barra's income over to the average General Motors workers, who make $90,000 a year? Progressivism stopped being about advancing the interests of the workers a long time ago.
 
Whether or not a particular CEO is also an entrepeneur is an empirical question. There is nothing inherent in position of CEO that is necessarily entrepeneurial in nature.

Progressivism is about improving the human condition, so, of course it is about advancing the interests of workers, since they are humans. There may be disagreements about what advances the interests of workers, but progressives believe they are advancing the interests of workers while more conservative observers disagree.
 
I’m reading an article that mentions “Wealth Redistribition” as an outcome of progressive policies and it got me wondering; Is it a redistribution of wealth from its “rightful” owners, or is it really a return of the wealth TO the “rightful” owners?
Did the poor people the progressives hand the wealth over to have it previously, before the progressives took it away from the rich people they redistributed it from? When the wealth in question is newly created wealth, the output of some productive enterprise, as opposed to preexisting wealth such as land, the poor people never had that wealth in the first place. Consequently, it can hardly be a "return" to them. You are peddling a fairy tale of zero-sum-game economic thinking.

When one thinks about, for example, CEOs who have massive incomes and hence wealth, one is obliged, IMHO to include the people who actuially made the thing. Without the thing, there are no sales. Without the person who turned one material into another, there is no thing.
What's your point? Without the CEO -- the person who manages the whole process and sees to it that every person who turns one material into another has access to the one material and turns it into the correct other material and hands the result off to the right third person who knows how to identify a fourth person who wants it and is willing to pay for it, and sees to it that all four of those people come out ahead on their respective deals -- there are no sales.

Production is a synergistic mechanism and all the participants are contributing to its success. That's why when political activists take power in a country and seize control of all the productive processes and decide some of the participants are parasites and get rid of those people, production always plummets and they usually bring on a famine. And yet this empirical observation never seems to cause the true believers to call into question their premise that everyone whose contribution they don't understand must necessarily be a parasite.

No CEO could make all the semi-conductors. They need the people who make the designs, the people whob assemble the precision equimpent, the people who machine the precision equipment, the people who mine the materials that are machined.
No worker could make all the semiconductors.

Entrepreneurs have proven that they can make things without a CEO
Oh for the love of god! An entrepreneur is a CEO. You think you can prove the function is unnecessary by renaming it?

and make at least as much as they would make in a large company.
Um, just how many entrepreneurs do you think make as much as the non-entrepreneurial CEOs of no-longer-entrepreneurial companies? Comparing the extreme tail end of one Gaussian distribution with the peak of another is not an apples-to-apples comparison. There's a reason companies usually stop being entrepreneurial when they get large. Building from scratch and further expanding an already large operation are different problems with different solutions needing different skill sets.

But no CEO has ever proved that they could make as much without the workers
:rolleyesa:
And no Darwinist has ever proved that a dinosaur could evolve into a man. You have a cartoon image of capitalism; it isn't capitalists' job to prove your incorrect picture of capitalism is correct. What CEO ever claimed he could make as much without the workers? Of course CEOs need workers. That's why they pay them! It's the left-wingers claiming workers don't need CEOs too who have something to prove.

- in other words, they have never proved that without skimming off the labor of others, they could not possibly be worth millions.
And the Labor Theory of Value rears its idiotic head again. That's not "in other words"; that's a completely different claim. How the bejesus do you think you can leap from "they can't make as much without" to "they're skimming off"?

Forget the CEO for a moment. Let's imagine the CEOless ownerless pinmaking co-op of collectivists' dreams -- just ten workers dividing up the labor with one making wire and one sharpening it and one making pinheads and one attaching them to pins and so forth. Not one of those people has ever proved he could make as much without the others. They can't. If one of them tries to make pins all by himself he won't make anywhere near a tenth as many pins. They have an efficient synergistic interdependent system. So according to the idiotic inference rule you applied above, the workers are all "skimming off" one another. That's an absurd conclusion. Therefore your inference rule is wrong. Q.E.D.

The Labor Theory of Value is the economic equivalent of the Qi theory of medicine.

So social programs like progressive taxation are a return of money earned by labor back into the pockets of labor - where it was earned.
Entirely apart from the errors in your reasoning about how capitalism works, um, has it occurred to you that the “wealth redistribition as an outcome of progressive policies" is generally not targeted at handing Mary Barra's income over to the average General Motors workers, who make $90,000 a year? Progressivism stopped being about advancing the interests of the workers a long time ago.
The question is not properly framed as did the poor people have wealth that the rich stole from them and us now being redistributed back to the poor.

The question is whether the wealthy became wealthy by unfairly suppressing wages for ( poor) workers. The question is what is fair and just for those who have most benefited from the system to contribute to the welfare of those who have not faired as well.

We do not all start on an even playing field. We do not all have the talents and abilities that corporations want at that moment. Corporations tend to see labor as disposable: as soon as they don’t need you—or can ship a job to somewhere the labor costs and costs to comply with environmental protections are lower.
 
The person with the idea that eventually became a publicly traded company did build that.
Very few CEOs are the ones who started the company...
Well, you're talking to one right now. Here's a link of few larger companies where the CEO was the founder:


Most CEOs either founded their company or they rose in the ranks and became majority shareholder over time.
Most?

The article lists 11 all of whom (except Dell) lead S&P 500 companies. (Dell would probably be in there too if it were public.)

What about the other 489?

(Most CEOs of public companies aren't the majority shareholder either....)
 
Whether or not a particular CEO is also an entrepeneur is an empirical question. There is nothing inherent in position of CEO that is necessarily entrepeneurial in nature.
Nobody claimed otherwise.

Progressivism is about improving the human condition, so, of course it is about advancing the interests of workers, since they are humans.
So is progressivism of course about advancing the interests of CEOs? Or are CEOs not humans?

There may be disagreements about what advances the interests of workers, but progressives believe they are advancing the interests of workers while more conservative observers disagree.
But how they see themselves is not what's at issue. Everybody is the hero of his own narrative. But GM workers making $90K a year are apt to be in progressive policies' "redistributed from" column, not in their "redistributed to" column.
 
More later, but - why did you pick the GM worker making 90k/yr and not the walmart worker making $18,000?

Are you trying to hide a conclusion?
 
Back
Top Bottom