How to diminish religious correctness and religious privilege

[Brian63]

When watching and observing conservative and fundamentalist Christians go into spiels about the various culture wars we are in, one extremely disturbing behavior that they engage in is to supremely exaggerate and misunderstand what it is we nontheists are actually doing. Specifically, they interpret any mere criticism of the doctrines of their religion as "attacking" or even "persecuting" them. Ed Brayton on the Freethought Blogs gives a couple examples in a couple posts of his today:

http://freethoughtblogs.com/dispatc...-crucifying-and-persecuting-christians-again/

http://freethoughtblogs.com/dispatc...upports-woman-who-destroyed-satanist-display/


Not only do they so flagrantly misread verbal disagreement with their beliefs as a kind of persecution on them, but they go even further than that and seem to want to be persecuted. Being persecuted for their beliefs validates their beliefs in their minds. They are doing it right in the eyes of their god then, if they perceive the world as acting against them. They will also get rewarded in the afterlife as well.

Obviously that is true with many Muslims in particular also (namely those that are terrorists), but I will just admit that I have less familiarity with Islamic doctrines and little to no interaction with Muslims, so it is the fundamentalist Christian theists ones that disturb me more personally, and they are the ones that I have had these sorts of encounters with.


What is the best way to combat this completely messed-up mentality? What can we as atheists do? Obviously being out-of-the-closet as atheists and being willing to disagree publicly with religious beliefs is crucial (Sam Harris had a huge impact on me with his "End of Faith" book on this topic several years ago), but it just seems like it is an extremely slow process, and would just take enormous time, namely decades, for those kinds of sentiments to become more widespread and accepted in society to the point where we will be able to obtain equal civil rights with theists, and "religious correctness" and "religious privilege" will become non-issues. Is there any way we can speed it up?

The desire for religious fundamentalists to be persecuted for their beliefs, and then to exaggerate such (perceived) occurrences to an enormous degree, is so deeply ingrained to them though that it becomes so difficult to have any kind of meaningful talk with them about any religious beliefs.

Notably, as disturbing as the behaviors of these fundamentalists are, I still try to have some compassion and sympathy for them as well. They are largely oblivious to this harmful mindset that they are enveloped in, and are not trying to harm others (for the most part), but just have a hugely mistaken idea that their beliefs and behaviors are helping, when they are really not. So I hope others can express some kindness as well, as difficult as that can be.

Brian

 

[Kharakov]

What a douchey post. You got the atheist whine down pat, and that little bit of veiled condescension at the end was so fragrantly cheesy you've achieved a whine and cheese pairing that's to die for.

 

[Brian63]

Actually that "veiled condescension" was not. I am definitely disturbed by the mentality and behavior that various theists exhibit, in portraying themselves as martyrs for their cause, and even sometimes *wanting* to be such. However, just because a person finds a particular mindset bothersome does not mean that they are similarly bothered by the people who hold that mindset. Maybe you have heard the phrase "hate the sin, love the sinner." That is one attitude that their religion does get right. A person can consistently feel disturbed by a certain approach to living life, while still wanting to help the people who hold that approach. That is the direction I try to take, although admittedly I do fail at it at times also. We are all only human.

Brian

 

[Kharakov]

Actually that "veiled condescension" was not.

.... veiled, it was technically blatant.

Maybe you have heard the phrase "hate the sin, love the sinner." That is one attitude that their religion does get right.

Well, as long as you hate the right way, you're fine.

A people can consistently feel disturbed by a certain approach to living life, while still wanting to help the people who hold that approach. That is the direction I try to take, although admittedly I do fail at it at times also.

Wouldn't it be the people who don't see your dry humor that are failing, and need to be put on the right track?

We are all only human.

lol....

Ok, brain36...

 

[Rhea]

What a douchey post. You got the atheist whine down pat, and that little bit of veiled condescension at the end was so fragrantly cheesy you've achieved a whine and cheese pairing that's to die for.

Wow, this seems out of left field and totally uncalled for.
I do not see what you find in the post to warrant this response.

He's stating an issue and looking for discussion. You act like that's a bad thing. ?

 

[Kharakov]

What a douchey post. You got the atheist whine down pat, and that little bit of veiled condescension at the end was so fragrantly cheesy you've achieved a whine and cheese pairing that's to die for.

Wow, this seems out of left field and totally uncalled for.
I do not see what you find in the post to warrant this response.

He's stating an issue and looking for discussion. You act like that's a bad thing. ?

I don't get your sense of humor sometimes...

 

[Rhea]

What is the best way to combat this completely messed-up mentality? What can we as atheists do? Obviously being out-of-the-closet as atheists and being willing to disagree publicly with religious beliefs is crucial (Sam Harris had a huge impact on me with his "End of Faith" book on this topic several years ago), but it just seems like it is an extremely slow process, and would just take enormous time, namely decades, for those kinds of sentiments to become more widespread and accepted in society to the point where we will be able to obtain equal civil rights with theists, and "religious correctness" and "religious privilege" will become non-issues. Is there any way we can speed it up?

I think talking to NON fundies about this helps a lot. Trying to help them recognize what their own brethren are doing and get the Christians to take the Christians to task. I have several Christian friends who will do just that, especially when they see me, their atheist friend, being unreasonably goaded or blamed by the fundies. This kind of support will speed things up, I think. And coming out of the closet increases these instances.

- - - Updated - - -

Wow, this seems out of left field and totally uncalled for.
I do not see what you find in the post to warrant this response.

He's stating an issue and looking for discussion. You act like that's a bad thing. ?

I don't get your sense of humor sometimes...

Maybe I wasn't getting yours? Was that humor and I totally missed it?

 

[Brian63]

Kharakov, I am not interested in any kind of verbal jabbing at each other with one-liners and quick comebacks. As Rhea noted, I am hoping to open this up for a more serious discussion. So you can have the last word in our exchange if you want it.

Brian

 

[Kharakov]

Kharakov, I am not interested in any kind of verbal jabbing at each other with one-liners and quick comebacks. As Rhea noted, I am hoping to open this up for a more serious discussion. So you can have the last word in our exchange if you want it.

Brian

Sorry Brian, I thought the whole post was a well crafted dryly written joke. I actually have various thoughts on the serious side of the issue as well.

 

[Brian63]

Well that is very kind of you, and I hope to see what your thoughts are on the subject as well.

Thanks,

Brian

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

It's not a process you can speed up. It will simply take more atheists speaking their minds directly and without passion. Never introducing nor allowing emotion into these discussions is the key in my view. You will just have to be the adult whenever you have these exchanges.

 

[surreptitious57]

It is different over here for the reverse is more true : namely that atheism is an entirely reasonable position to take and Christianity is accepted but only as much as this is a free society. It may be trendy to actually be an atheist though my apatheism has nothing to do with being trendy for I actually have no problem with death and it can take me when ever it wants. I am not absolutely certain that most other atheists over here share this view and so I am definitely not an apatheist simply to fit in. I actually have next to nothing to do with other ground apes. And so my own philosophy therefore with regard to the mindset of others is simply to leave them be and instead just focus on your own as that is more practical. As I know that it definitely works for me

 

[OLDMAN]

I started telling them to shut up and let god talk for himself. (herself) They don't like this but what can they say, god has done it before what's to stop him from speaking out again? I know why he won't speak and they feel they have to speak for him, but they have no excuses.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I started telling them to shut up and let god talk for himself. (herself) They don't like this but what can they say, god has done it before what's to stop him from speaking out again? I know why he won't speak and they feel they have to speak for him, but they have no excuses.

I'll have to remember that one. I've told a few, "Show me your god," but I like your response better.

 

[surreptitious57]

Being logical is far superior in argument than being emotional because emotion can compromise clear thinking
But the only one who can change their thinking is themselves so it actually has to come from within not without
This is true of all and is why I always try as much as possible to be open minded about things less than absolute

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Put Kharkov in your kill file and don't let him derail a thread with this sort of crap. I did so months ago and it makes this board a lot better.

 

[Brian63]

Well maybe we can just try and drop this line of rhetorical conversation altogether, and get on the topic of how we can reduce the influence of religion in our world (and particularly, the martyr complexes that are so prevalent in it). It is such an enormously powerful force on how so many people think and interpret the world around them, and it is so extremely unhealthy, both on an individual basis and for the future of our world even.

Brian

 

[credoconsolans]

Combat them with reason, logic and push your government reps to tow the line with the Constitution.

Repeat and openly repeat and keep repeating that Christianity as a religion is no different than any other religion and thus deserves no special recognition or handling.

Right now, in the US, due to centuries of presumption and public recognition and respect, Christians have grown up thinking their religion is different than everyone else's and thus deserves to be treated as special.

How many times have all of us heard

"The US is a Christian nation."
"Christians built this country"
"Our laws and morals are based on Christianity"

When none of the above is actually true?

You must speak out.

 

[Kharakov]

Is there any way we can speed it up?

[sarcasm, but there is a point]Convince them that the end times are near, and that the only way for the antichrist to appear is for atheists to gain control of the most powerful nation on Earth. Present atheism as the "peaceful" alternative (because the antichrist comes as a man of peace), so talk nicely, and don't joke around about the issues. They see atheists as tricked by Satan anyways.

Ohh, yeah, and then when they are oppressed by the atheist regime that rises up, you will confirm everything the bible says about the antichrist, and they will still believe what they believe, and you will simply be torturing them by making them think the antichrist has won as they continue to live in a world in which every day they believe they will go to hell if they give up the fight.

The humane thing to do is to kill them, assuming atheists can organize and strike all at once, so as not to disturb the peaceful theists. Otherwise they will suffer indefinitely til the day they die. That is, unless they are the ones who are connected to God, and the organization of atheists into one triggers an attack from God. Either way.... it will be sad to lose those we love, who have drank from the cup of ignorance and missed the point of life- love. [/sarcasm, but there is a point]

In other words, be patient. We are all working on it. Rushing will result in many tormented minds. Withdrawal is not pleasant for those that are addicted to reality abuse.

 

[sdelsolray]

When watching and observing conservative and fundamentalist Christians go into spiels about the various culture wars we are in, one extremely disturbing behavior that they engage in is to supremely exaggerate and misunderstand what it is we nontheists are actually doing. Specifically, they interpret any mere criticism of the doctrines of their religion as "attacking" or even "persecuting" them. Ed Brayton on the Freethought Blogs gives a couple examples in a couple posts of his today:

http://freethoughtblogs.com/dispatc...-crucifying-and-persecuting-christians-again/

http://freethoughtblogs.com/dispatc...upports-woman-who-destroyed-satanist-display/


Not only do they so flagrantly misread verbal disagreement with their beliefs as a kind of persecution on them, but they go even further than that and seem to want to be persecuted. Being persecuted for their beliefs validates their beliefs in their minds. They are doing it right in the eyes of their god then, if they perceive the world as acting against them. They will also get rewarded in the afterlife as well.

Obviously that is true with many Muslims in particular also (namely those that are terrorists), but I will just admit that I have less familiarity with Islamic doctrines and little to no interaction with Muslims, so it is the fundamentalist Christian theists ones that disturb me more personally, and they are the ones that I have had these sorts of encounters with.


What is the best way to combat this completely messed-up mentality? What can we as atheists do? Obviously being out-of-the-closet as atheists and being willing to disagree publicly with religious beliefs is crucial (Sam Harris had a huge impact on me with his "End of Faith" book on this topic several years ago), but it just seems like it is an extremely slow process, and would just take enormous time, namely decades, for those kinds of sentiments to become more widespread and accepted in society to the point where we will be able to obtain equal civil rights with theists, and "religious correctness" and "religious privilege" will become non-issues. Is there any way we can speed it up?

The desire for religious fundamentalists to be persecuted for their beliefs, and then to exaggerate such (perceived) occurrences to an enormous degree, is so deeply ingrained to them though that it becomes so difficult to have any kind of meaningful talk with them about any religious beliefs.

Notably, as disturbing as the behaviors of these fundamentalists are, I still try to have some compassion and sympathy for them as well. They are largely oblivious to this harmful mindset that they are enveloped in, and are not trying to harm others (for the most part), but just have a hugely mistaken idea that their beliefs and behaviors are helping, when they are really not. So I hope others can express some kindness as well, as difficult as that can be.

Brian

I believe it is important to determine and understand why these fundamentalist Christians act and behave as they do regarding this subject. It's traceable to their religious dogma. First, they are taught not to question their religion's precepts and tenets. Second, they are taught that non-believers will persecute them for their beliefs. Third, their ability to use these together and you get their reaction to skepticism, criticism and challenges.

As far as influencing them, change and awareness comes from inside and requires internal intellectual honesty, integrity and humility. Good luck with instilling that into these diseased minds.