Is Satan being present in many places at once Biblical?

[Jimmy Higgins]

Isn't it nuts, in 2024 CE, to be deciding the virtues/defects and qualities of invisible beings from writings that go back 5000 years? (Or 2500 years back, depending on which scholar you prefer.)

I find Genesis interesting. The rest of it, not as much.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I read that story when I was a tot. My mind was a relatively blank slate, and I think I saw it correctly the first time.
When the snake promised death, it meant that lifespans would be newly limited, or that people would be aware of its limits, not that apples were lethal poison.
Before A&E succumbed to temptation, death wasn’t a “thing”, nor was fear of death.

What needs to be remembered is the "Tree of Life" patent pending isn't introduced into the story until the last minute.

The truth is that death is mentioned after the Serpent and Woman talk about it. God doesn't punish man with death. He banishes man from The Garden because he doesn't want man becoming a god, not because he wants man to die.

 

[Politesse]

I'm not seeing it as a metaphor, especially in context of the written narrative. As long as one reads the story knowing the character of Yahweh, it isn't a stretch to suggest the serpent is a quasi-hero here.

You don't see... death and metaphors for death as nearly universal tropes in world mythology?

 

[Elixir]

I'm not seeing it as a metaphor, especially in context of the written narrative. As long as one reads the story knowing the character of Yahweh, it isn't a stretch to suggest the serpent is a quasi-hero here.

You don't see... death and metaphors for death as nearly universal tropes in world mythology?

Yeah there’s all that. But I found it more credible and relevant that it was AWARENESS of death that was new, not mortality. God, devils, angels, cyclops, gorgons and all the rest, are understood to be fantasy. When I was very little I took that as a given. That actual adults actually swallowed that crap, was the hard pill to swallow.

 

[Politesse]

Nah, he's been posting here a while. So I don't think Metaphor has posted in this thread.

I'm sure he earned his fate somehow or other, but I kind of miss that asshole. A forum should have all kinds of folks on it.

But as to the story, I don't see the entire chapter of mathematically declining lifespans could be reasonably taken as anything other than a metaphor for the pall of mortality. Knowledge = death is also a very frequent motif in the Hebrew Scriptures.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I'm not seeing it as a metaphor, especially in context of the written narrative. As long as one reads the story knowing the character of Yahweh, it isn't a stretch to suggest the serpent is a quasi-hero here.

You don't see... death and metaphors for death as nearly universal tropes in world mythology?

I'm not seeing a need for metaphor when the writing is a bit straight forward. It isn't like this was written by Jon Anderson or Peter Gabriel. I weigh the interpretation heavily on Genesis 3:22. God is explicitly explaining why man must go, and it is to prevent mankind from becoming gods like him.

Working backwards, one needs to ask the question, WHY is there a prohibition (if we even want to call it that) on the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (metaphor for all things)? Was it to prevent man from being god's equal? There appears to be no other reason. It wasn't for man's safety. The fruit wasn't poisoned. Arguably it wasn't a rule intended to kick man out either as the warning is death, not a punishment of being banished.

 

[Politesse]

I'm not seeing a need for metaphor when the writing is a bit straight forward.

Straightforward? Are we talking about the same book? The one with a talking snake in it? And magic fruit? And sons that somehow "become" nations without explanation as to how? And a tower that reached heaven? And a guy who wrestled with God and only lost because god cheated? And a wife who turns to salt because of her lack of faith? The book that intersperses the work of at least four editors and one of the oldest and most mysterious oral traditions in the world? That book? Nothing about Genesis is remotely straightforward.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I'm not seeing a need for metaphor when the writing is a bit straight forward.

Straightforward? Are we talking about the same book?

Just the narrative of The Fall. As I indicated, I work my resolution on the plot backwards.

The one with a talking snake in it? And magic fruit? And sons that somehow "become" nations without explanation as to how? And a tower that reached heaven? And a guy who wrestled with God and only lost because god cheated? And a wife who turns to salt because of her lack of faith?

I like Genesis, that is where the cool stuff is.

The book that intersperses the work of at least four editors and one of the oldest and most mysterious oral traditions in the world? That book? Nothing about Genesis is remotely straightforward.

Except for where it is. We know that the narratives are allegory and not meant to be taken as historical. So that means we need to peer into the allegory. For me, it makes more sense to work backwards as it helps the interpretation ask the right questions regarding what has happened and why. Indeed, we are stuck with a narrative that we can't really definitively explain its meaning. But we are provided a number of parts to select from to derive certain aspects.

Being a just-so allegory, we are left with an ending that must happen. Man and woman must be kicked out of The Garden. The outcome means less to the reader than the reason of why. Much like how Star Wars III was so awful in describing how Anakin becomes a pansy for the Sith.

 

[Learner]

Funny enough there was a sermon I heard. The preacher said (paraphrasing) " We can't blame satan all the time (direct influence). 'He can't be everywhere at the same time'. It's those snares you got to watch out for that he's laid and left all about.

Gotta love rhetorical nonsense. You can't blame Satan all the time, he is responsible for everything bad we've done.

Satan being blamed for all bad things (starting from Eden) is contextually just a 'technically speaking' response, not in line with the actual context of my post regarding the 'willing choice actions' to do or not to do bad things... and that's without satan.

What are you talking about? I was paraphrasing your paraphrased quote.

I didn't see it. Where did you paraphrase the context element to ones own free will?

The preacher said (paraphrasing) " We can't blame satan all the time (direct influence). 'He can't be everywhere at the same time'. It's those snares you got to watch out for that he's laid and left all about.

He can't be everywhere at the same time.
Got it, Satan isn't everywhere so when we do something wrong, it wasn't Satan.

Good you got it. The commandments for example, stating an obvious, emphasises on laws to not do evil. It's the free will thing.

It's those snares you got to watch out for that he' laid and left all about.
Wait... so when we do something wrong, it was either Satan or the snare Satan left about, so either way it is Satan.

And this is also the ridiculousness of explaining why bad stuff happens. Well Satan made it happen (directly or indirectly whatever the heck that means). No, not Satan, humans. Start owning up to your own failings instead of blaming some imaginary creature.

What it means is: you DO own up to your own actions! Why did you ignore the strongly emphasised parts in the bible - the consequences given from being judged by your actions? It's the will to do or not to do, that theists often argue about.

Blaming someone else? Start owning up to your own failings? Your arguments are confused with someone else's post perhaps. As I said above regarding 'free will' and consequences that's the context in all my previous posts.

 

[Learner]

@Learner, let’s suppose it matters somehow to someone whether your imaginary devil can be everywhere at once or not. You have made it clear that you think not. Yet you believe your the devil has been “all about”, laying traps.
So my question is:
Did he lay them all one at a time?

I dunno. Depends what your mind is imagining from the laying snare line. Is it literally in terms of an actual physical bear trap or rabbit snare that's illustrated to you? You could get a little confused if so. Do let me know so we can at least be on the same page of a conceptual understanding (not necessary for you to believe it's true).

If so he must be capable of FTL travel. We all know that’s impossible.
If not, he must be capable of being in multiple places at one time. So my question is,
HOW MANY places can he be at once?
13?
666?

He can travel quite efficiently but roams place to place as it described. It doesn't at all say anywhere in the bible he's everywhere at once (pass that on to your like-buddies if you can be so kind).

I would think that this is the FIRST thing you need to determine, for the answer to your question to have any importance to anyone ever.

It's not for everyone, I'm aware of that but cheers for engaging in the conversation.

Oh, wait! Maybe the devil has a remote control trap-laying device? Or a whole horde of them? Everywhere? Wouldn’t it be cool to find one

Ah ok, I see, It is the literal bear trap and rabbit snare that you have pictured in your mind. No wonder we're talking past each other.

Yes indeed you can find them everywhere you look. We often complain about them everyday.

Just a reminder then:

Being attracted to Power through greed and manipulation, the snares laid about in the form of addictions snared by enticements encouraging people to engage in all the depravities and hates of others..that takes over their lives and harms them and those around them, their families & friends etc..

 

[Elixir]

@Learner, let’s suppose it matters somehow to someone whether your imaginary devil can be everywhere at once or not. You have made it clear that you think not. Yet you believe your the devil has been “all about”, laying traps.
So my question is:
Did he lay them all one at a time?

I dunno. Depends what your mind is imagining from the laying snare line.

Oh, I see. Like the rest of your superstition, this part depends on imagination.

If so he must be capable of FTL travel. We all know that’s impossible.
If not, he must be capable of being in multiple places at one time. So my question is,
HOW MANY places can he be at once?
13?
666?

He can travel quite efficiently but roams place to place as it described

Oh. FTL, then. I’d think the writers could have done better with that gimmick.

I would think that this is the FIRST thing you need to determine, for the answer to your question

It's not for everyone, I'm aware of that but cheers for engaging in the conversation.

I didn’t reference everyone. We are talking about YOUR fantasy.

Oh, wait! Maybe the devil has a remote control trap-laying device? Or a whole horde of them? Everywhere? Wouldn’t it be cool to find one

Ah ok, I see, It is the literal bear trap and rabbit snare that you have pictured in your mind.

Don’t quit your day job; you’re a crappy mind reader.
Traps need laying, physical, mental, emotional or otherwise.

Being attracted to Power through greed and manipulation,

Whose greed? Who is manipulating and how? Does the devil use his FTL transport to suddenly appear whenever someone is greedy? GMAFB

the snares laid about in the form of addictions snared by enticements encouraging people

Now your debbil is an invisible enticer and addictor? Sorry pal, we can each do those things without help from below.

to engage in all the depravities and hates of others..that takes over their lives and harms them and those around them, their families & friends etc..

Yeah, we know depravities and hate are endemic to the human condition.
No debbil needed.

Your religions’ need for a devil is EXACTLY THE SAME as a political party’s need for an external threat from which to save the hapless people. It’s a component of a power structure to keep people subjugated.
And it’s working real well on you and your ilk.

 

[ideologyhunter]

As always, you can say whatever you like about invisible, intangible, unsmellable, inaudible beings made up long ago and now part of our cultural ragout. So you can manipulate your descriptions to fit the old-time superstitions or, if you're in a tiny sect, whatever the head guru says. Never mind that mankind has made up countless thousands of alternate narratives for the invisible, intangible, etc. etc. etc. So glad I'm not burdened with this stuff, mostly because, back in the 50s and 60s, I didn't have this particular app installed in my head. Thanks, lazy social Christian Mom & Dad & grandparents!

 

[Learner]

@Learner, let’s suppose it matters somehow to someone whether your imaginary devil can be everywhere at once or not. You have made it clear that you think not. Yet you believe your the devil has been “all about”, laying traps.
So my question is:
Did he lay them all one at a time?

I dunno. Depends what your mind is imagining from the laying snare line.

Oh, I see. Like the rest of your superstition, this part depends on imagination.

No like your imaginative attempts to devise smart-alec questions, which I don't mind answering. Besides venturers into finding out things even in the scientific world use a lot of imagination.

If so he must be capable of FTL travel. We all know that’s impossible.
If not, he must be capable of being in multiple places at one time. So my question is,
HOW MANY places can he be at once?
13?
666?

He can travel quite efficiently but roams place to place as it described

Oh. FTL, then. I’d think the writers could have done better with that gimmick.

Better gimmick? It's not a gimmick if it true otherwise "incorporating gimmicks" would be a deceitful method for making things up. But I think your take is: if one wanted to make a good imaginative story they wouldn't leave such supposed conflictions, unless they were true.

I would think that this is the FIRST thing you need to determine, for the answer to your question

It's not for everyone, I'm aware of that but cheers for engaging in the conversation.

I didn’t reference everyone. We are talking about YOUR fantasy.

I see, but I haven't mentioned any fantasy yet - that's private.
We were talking about the Bible and I think where you're were supposed to make a good argument.

Oh, wait! Maybe the devil has a remote control trap-laying device? Or a whole horde of them? Everywhere? Wouldn’t it be cool to find one

Ah ok, I see, It is the literal bear trap and rabbit snare that you have pictured in your mind.

Don’t quit your day job; you’re a crappy mind reader.
Traps need laying, physical, mental, emotional or otherwise.

How did you mind read that I was leaving my job to be a mind reader? (I'm my own boss btw.)

Well yes traps need laying but can you tell me who is saying it doesn't.. your argument has missed its mark?

Being attracted to Power through greed and manipulation,

Whose greed? Who is manipulating and how? Does the devil use his FTL transport to suddenly appear whenever someone is greedy? GMAFB

Peoples greed who else was I talking about,? We covered this above, the section where you said you don't need satan to be about.

the snares laid about in the form of addictions snared by enticements encouraging people

Now your debbil is an invisible enticer and addictor? Sorry pal, we can each do those things without help from below.

Money, wealth & power, or fame is the enticer to name but some.

We're not on the same page are we?

to engage in all the depravities and hates of others..that takes over their lives and harms them and those around them, their families & friends etc..

Yeah, we know depravities and hate are endemic to the human condition.
No debbil needed.

That's sort of what I said, do take note.

Your religions’ need for a devil is EXACTLY THE SAME as a political party’s need for an external threat from which to save the hapless people. It’s a component of a power structure to keep people subjugated.
And it’s working real well on you and your ilk.

If people actually followed Jesus and his commandments there'd be no wars, poor or hungry! Dictatorships don't like those teachings.. when followers would rather die than go against Christ!

 

[ideologyhunter]

If people actually followed Jesus and his commandments there'd be no wars, poor or hungry!

Then how did Christians come to hack each other up or reduce each other to ashes, in centuries past, in defense of their vision of Jesus and his commandments? (Um...I think I know, actually. Some of 'em or all of 'em were blind to the true teachings, right?)
If none of us "lay up treasures on earth", worry about food and drink, worry about tomorrow at all, on the theory that God feeds the birds of the air, so we'll be taken care of, then there better be a permanent, sustaining social security system, 'cuz Suze Orman and I predict a ton of bankruptcies, homelessness, and hunger.

 

[Elixir]

Better gimmick?

No, better results.
Your whole fantasy could be far more entertaining had it not been awkwardly cobbled together for political expedience.

 

[Learner]

If people actually followed Jesus and his commandments there'd be no wars, poor or hungry!

Then how did Christians come to hack each other up or reduce each other to ashes, in centuries past, in defense of their vision of Jesus and his commandments? (Um...I think I know, actually. Some of 'em or all of 'em were blind to the true teachings, right?)

If you've read the Gospels, do any of those actions sound like Jesus's Commandments to you? As it's written many come in his name but not all who do will be accepted.

If none of us "lay up treasures on earth", worry about food and drink, worry about tomorrow at all, on the theory that God feeds the birds of the air, so we'll be taken care of, then there better be a permanent, sustaining social security system, 'cuz Suze Orman and I predict a ton of bankruptcies, homelessness, and hunger.

It's not against God to be rich or wealthy by honest work not greed, therefore not being a binding law, your would-be prediction may not be on point. It doesn't say give up everything to be purposely homeless, poor or hungry "therefore riches in heaven".

 

[ideologyhunter]

If you've read the Gospels, do any of those actions sound like Jesus's Commandments to you? As it's written many come in his name but not all who do will be accepted.

Then, were all Christians who in past centuries burned witches, tortured and killed heretics, or warred on other Christians...not Christians at all? That would include a ton of self-identifying Christians over the long history of the church. It would include popes, Protestant leaders, a ton of rank and file who went along with the prevailing practices.

 

[steve_bank]

The final battle at the end of LOTR is an apocalyptic end of days battle. In the tale Gandalf The Grey falls down a deep underground abyss battling a demon. He emerges transformed into Gandalf The White. Cleansed.

This is not correct. @Politesse is correct. There are larger battles before that, and the "climax" of the book is when the ring is cast into the fire of Mount Doom following a fight between Frodo and Gollum leading to the fall of Barad-dur.

Apparent;y LOTR devotees are as passionate about their scripture as are Christians.

Which goes to my chubby points, religion is one manifestation of a common human behavior and non religious will defend whatever it is they are emerged in as aggressively as Chisrtians.

The original Trekkies waking around in Star Trek uniforms and LOTR enthusiasts walking around New Zealand in costumes and Hobbit feet.

 

[Elixir]

If you've read the Gospels, do any of those actions sound like Jesus's Commandments

Most likely not. Verboten quotes from Jesus are paraphrased translations of recollections or fabrications, and are ultimately unverifiable. If Jesus existed as an individual, the sound of his commandments would be quite unfamiliar.

 

[steve_bank]

We can develop a context.

We can look at the word today and project back 2000 years. Geopolitics and religious nationalism.

The players are different, but it is the same scenario right now in Gaza. Israel is the regional militray and economic power. It will not tolerate a Palestinian state unless it is influenced by Israel. Israel is singeing land for ts economic needs and growth.

Bot just the Mid East religious nationalism and ethnicity fuels conflict in other places. I think North Ireland is still simmering. Sudan. The Muslim split between Iran/Persians and Arab Muslims.

I do not think fundamental human politcis has cnanged since the first civilzations.

Here in the USA we see conservative Chrtin leaders arise, no dfeent tan Isreal 2000 yeras ago.

There are a gret many today who are as ignorant and superstitious as the ancient tribal nomadic Hebrews were.

2000 yearsfrom now maybe there will be debate over whether there was a 'historical Gnadalf'.

The gopsels are crytpic unless you create a context which people do. The philsophcal secular Christian who may see Jesus as an hustoricall warm fuzzy wise man preahicng unversal love. They cherry pick quotes that support their narratves and reject the supernatural. Ignoring the words of Jesus on fornication.

Evangecals see Jesus as an agent of a suprenaturl all powerful deity who emowers htem to act in the name of the deity.

We know how Mormoism and Scetolgy arose with their true belivers.

For a broader historical context ancient Isreal was a minor player in a region of suoerior civilzations and in the long run lost out. They were as as agressive as any others.