Driving around Chiang Mai

[Jarhyn]

@Swammerdami I would visit, but sadly Thailand is a... Let's just say that as an adult with a penis who is involved in kink communities, my reputation would not survive the visit.

If you're alluding to sex tourism, I'm afraid that aspect of Thailand is greatly exaggerated. Especially regarding "normal" cities like Chiang Mai in contrast to the infamous Pattaya.

I'm rather certain that the size of the "adult entertainment industry" is MUCH huger in the U.S. than in Thailand.

I'm sure. But honestly, the reputation of Thailand is just too much to live down.

Worse, I'm active in the age-play community. It's just a terrible look visiting Thailand for me.

If you ever find yourself in the Netherlands, though....

 

[Swammerdami]

Lest I be accused of "false advertising" in encouraging people to visit or even move to Chiang Mai, let me remind that

April is the cruelest month . . .

No, Mr. Eliot was not alluding to IRS deadlines; he was referring to Thailand's high temperatures.

I enjoy walking through some of Chiang Mai's intriguing neighborhoods with their varieties of book stores, coffee shops, smoothie bars, wacky foreigners, etc. But that is not an option in April, the cruelest month.

The NOAA website reports historical weather information from all around the world, including weather reports from the Chiang Mai International Airport beginning in 1973. There have been only seven days in those 50+ years where the mercury here went above 107°F but two of those seven days happened this year, just now on April 22 and 24. The hottest year was 2016; it also had two days above 107°F -- both of those were in May, and we haven't even gotten to May 2024 yet! (2019 and 2023 were also unusually hot, but neither ever got above 107°F.)

Many of those who can leave the city for the seashore in April do so, but I'm lazy to travel so just brave it out here, spending about 23 hours per day in air conditioning. I suppose it's cooler here than my old home in rural central Thailand where it reached 108°F two days ago, and had 42 days above 106°F in 2016.

Once upon a time most Americans would find these numbers frightful. Not any more though, with Phoenix, Arizona having Fifty-seven days above 111°F in 2023!

March and April are also the height of smoke season here, but most days have been much less smoky than we had last year.

 

[EricH]

@Swammerdami I would visit, but sadly Thailand is a... Let's just say that as an adult with a penis who is involved in kink communities, my reputation would not survive the visit.

What is a kink community?

 

[Jarhyn]

@Swammerdami I would visit, but sadly Thailand is a... Let's just say that as an adult with a penis who is involved in kink communities, my reputation would not survive the visit.

What is a kink community?

Spoiler: Risky click

BDSM play, age play, rape play, diaper lovers, pup play, pegging, swinging, piss play, scat, vore, foot play, crush...

Kink communities are communities revolving around some sexual kink.

In most kink communities (and especially the ones that abut on the age play community), trips to Thailand by an adult with a penis are going to be interpreted, usually accurately, as "for the purposes of raping a child".

See also:

Should I assume a man is a pedophile if they are older and travel to Thailand?

Answer (1 of 4): That just makes you a sexist and an ageist. A pedo can be any age. It doesn't mean that an older gentleman who wants to travel to sunny South East Asia = instant paedophile. Many pedos are English teachers in their 20s preying on children in rural villages, BTW. And also, that...

www.quora.com

It is such a common trope that this is one of the first Google results about older (esp. single) men visiting Thailand.

 

[Swammerdami]

It is such a common trope that this is one of the first Google results about older (esp. single) men visiting Thailand.

FWIW, I think Cambodia is a much better match these days to that meme. My own life-style is so tame that lots of "wild" stuff passes by me unnoticed, but on my visit to the Sihanoukville beach in Cambodia I heard comments so blatant that even I could understand, and which horrified me.

But even in a place like Sihanoukville, a very large majority of tourists are NOT into pedophilia.

 

[Swammerdami]

I've been remiss about posting interesting and/or amusing anecdotes in this thread. If we include my decades spent in Thailand outside Chiang Mai I have 6 or 7 anecdotes to mention (or at least thrice that number if I include anecdotes involving criminality or wickedness).

I was just reminded of this minor event, which will let you laugh at my naïveté.

Not long after moving into our house in rural Thailand, whose construction I had sort-of supervised, we were visited by my wife's 2nd cousin^*, her husband, and their "toddler." Although we had plenty of chairs, we all sat on the floor -- not unusual. I am uncomfortable sitting on the floor, especially since the cross-leg posture that Buddhist monks adopt is often considered rude when used by a non-monk. Instead the legs fold the same direction, more-or-less parallel, and for me very uncomfortable. Still, it might also have been slightly rude for me to sit in a chair.

The three adults chatted about something while us three kids played catch-throw-roll with a small rubber ball. (Although the oldest by far of all six I count myself as a child. I wasn't going through my 2nd or 3rd childhood -- I've just been a child all my life.)

I wrote "toddler" in quotes because their kid didn't toddle. When he wanted to move he left his legs bent and used his hands to scoot along the floor. He was much better at catching and throwing the ball than my own kid, and I felt sorry his legs were crippled. I even thought of trying to -- though didn't! -- express words of sympathy. After a while, the toddler's father, a perfectly healthy young man, wanted to get a toy from the toy cabinet. He scooted his way to the cabinet just as his son had!

* - Because of low mobility and a sibling village effect, 2nd cousins were very common in that rural region, and often aren't even recognized as relatives. But this visitor was close since her father and ours were 1st cousins and close friends. By "sister village" I mean that it's not unusual for a specific village 50 kilometers away to provide several husbands for the women in a specific other village.

 

[Swammerdami]

I've personally witnessed all three of the big recent floods in Thailand. I was in Bangkok during the 1983 flood when employees in the city's center slept at work since the streets were impassable. Living in the "degraded forest" in 1995 I drove around the area just for fun, to see which roads were passable. ("Try ... if you dare!") The waters receded just in time for us to drive to a point where we could see the 1995 Solar Eclipse. (Barely. The water was almost at road level, and a meter higher on the west side of the road than the east side with powerful whirlpools wherever water passed through under-the-road storm drains to get to the lower-level other side.)

And I lived in the "degraded forest" when the Great Flood of 2011 divided the country into islands, and "influential persons" fought for control of flood-gates to decide which provinces would be completely inundated.

It's raining profusely here in Chiang Mai as I write (2 am). Parts of the Ping River overflowed yesterday or the day before.. (Chiang Rai and its neighbors are on a different river -- they flooded severely some weeks ago.)

As you see in the video, at least one house collapsed into the raging waters. Much of the city is unaffected, but the Night Bazaar, popular with tourists, is under water.

Water from the Ping River flows into the giant Bhumipol Reservoir, while Chiang Rai's Nan River flows into the giant Sirikit Reservoir. (These rivers join with other rivers to form the Chao Phya which runs through the Capital to the Bight of Bangkok.) The two giant reservoirs seem to be at 61% capacity, giving them plenty of spare capacity -- I think -- to protect Central Thailand and the Capital if rain continues. (In 2011 these reservoirs were near 100% capacity when heavy rains in the North began!)

 

[Swammerdami]

Zoom in on this map to show flooded parts of Chiang Mai city in pink, with closed roads in red. Inundation is severe in the East, South and Center with some flooding in the West and North as well. You will see that the Old City -- easy to spot since it's a perfect mile square -- and the nearby airport are dry. Not surprising perhaps since the Old City was deliberately built 700+ years ago outside the flood zone.

There are trade-offs about which neighborhood of the city to live in, but with hind-sight I am glad my daughter bought a house where she did: we are quite dry!

 

[bilby]

You will see that the Old City -- easy to spot since it's a perfect mile square -- and the nearby airport are dry. Not surprising perhaps since the Old City was deliberately built 700+ years ago outside the flood zone.

It was very far-sighted of them to leave a suitable flood protected site for an airport when planning out the Old City. If only our modern town planners had such long-term thinking at heart.

 

[Swammerdami]

The map I linked to is dynamic; clicking now I see that waters are receding.

You will see that the Old City -- easy to spot since it's a perfect mile square -- and the nearby airport are dry. Not surprising perhaps since the Old City was deliberately built 700+ years ago outside the flood zone.

It was very far-sighted of them to leave a suitable flood protected site for an airport when planning out the Old City. If only our modern town planners had such long-term thinking at heart.

I was aware of this slight ambiguity when I wrote that post but was too lazy to rephrase while still maximizing tersity. If Donald Trump -- who describes the Revolutionaries of 1776 or 1812 "taking over the airports" -- was a participant here I'd have needed to be more careful.

As you see on the map, the end of Runway 36 is about one mile due west of the (SW corner of) the Old City. Chiang Mai was a much smaller city in the early 1920's when that airstrip was built. Few major cities today have an airport so close to their center/centre.

 

[Swammerdami]

Yesterday I had lunch at my favorite restaurant and the parking-lot guard told me rains and floods were on their way again! I'd forgotten what he said and a few hours ago almost called a taxi to take me downtown for an evening's entertainment. But a friend sent me some photos: Floating Fortune road is mostly flooded. (And my favorite restaurant is cut off.) So I'll just stay home, read a book or something. The friend, who lives south of the city, is trapped, unable to leave home with the floods.

I don't know how the map to Chiang Mai floods that I linked upthread was created; but clicking now I see that it's been updated and now shows flooding more extensive in the Center, though it doesn't seem to show the flooding to the South affecting my friend.

Sympathies to anyone affected by Hurricane Helene. Compared with that our problems here may seem trivial.

 

[Swammerdami]

This flooding was a "double-whammy." Just a week ago, people were cleaning up, happy that the severe flood was receding. But another storm appeared, and since River and channels were already full, the flooding is much more severe. The Ping River rose to a record-setting 5.39 meters level -- almost 18 feet. I *think* that means 5.39 meters above its average level, right? Water is overflowing the River all along the right bank. Much of the left bank is protected by a wall erected in recent years. The Night Bazaar and neighboring areas, e.g. the Warorot Market, have probably been devastated. Many bridges are closed including the Nawarat Bridge (ThaPhae Road).

My relative says the weather my be caused by the  Madden–Julian oscillation, which I'd never heard of before. I hope one of our climatologists gives us a summary.

Elephants are fleeing, some through waters too deep for convenient breathing:

 

[Swammerdami]

One reason I love Thailand is that the people are so cheerful! I think it was a different message-board where I mentioned a supermarket employee skipping to race down an aisle. When is the last time any of you has seen an adult skipping in your country? At a certain chain restaurant (Santa Fe Steak) a young waitress often waves her hands as though dancing. I mentioned this to her; now she laughs (at me? with me?) whenever I show up for lunch.

And just a moment ago I was in a supermarket as a couple walked by. The woman was moving her hands as if to music, so I prolonged my glance. She then delivered a kick with her heel toward husband's butt (not contacting?) just before turning in a different direction to examine fruit or vegetables. Moments later I passed a woman advertising Dutch Mill yoghurt drink. I bought a small pack just to see her smile, and she then asked to take a selfie with me.

Grumpiness is almost NEVER encountered here, but seemed not uncommon when I lived in California.

 

[Swammerdami]

During the pandemic, Thailand's important tourism industry did very poorly (except for tourists stranded in-country due to Covid travel restrictions). But tourism is booming this year; Chiang Mai's hotels are at 90% occupancy, and I understand that this province has passed Pattaya and Phuket as a tourist destination. Of course many of the foreigners one sees are permanent or multi-month residents. A large portion of the foreigners are American.

The tourism high season is just a few weeks centered on November-December. Throughout the 2+ year period I've been here the roads have been torn-up (partly to move electricity wires underground) but why did they pick NOW -- the height of tourist season -- to do even more roadwork than usual and block much of "Ring Road 1"? This led me on a detour where I encountered a two-way road where one drives in the right-hand lanes. (We normally drive on the left here.) How often does one encounter a U.S. road where you drive in the left lanes? (Another anomaly is a one-way road 1-kilometer long that connects the airport to "Route 108", but for which there is no corresponding one-way road in the opposite direction. Yet it offers a very convenient shortcut which cars in the opposite direction don't need.)

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

I wrote "Ring Road 1" in quotes because nobody calls it that. I'm using it to refer to the pair of 4-segment roads (one clockwise, the other counter-clockwise) circumnavigating the square-shaped Old City. It seems simpler than memorizing eight different names -- which few know anyway -- for the eight segments, each a mile long. And I've only heard Google Maps refer to "Route 108." People here by-and-large do NOT name the roads they travel.

In Silicon Valley it was routine to say, e.g. "Take Lawrence Expressway, then turn West on Central Expressway." But here roads are seldom named, especially in rural areas. When we lived in rural Thailand, we and almost everyone we knew lived on or near the same 30 kilometer-long road. (A road that was on NO map before Google Maps came along.) For a few days I asked everyone I saw what the name of the road was. People just stared back, shaking their heads. Finally one guy explained "We don't talk like that. We just say we're going to such-and-such village."

People do talk about "Ring Road 2" and "Ring Road 3" -- not official names, nor do they even form rings -- for the expressways/freeways used for distance travel. When I ask "Well, what's Ring Road 1 then?" they just shrug and sometimes say "the roads around Old City maybe."

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Two weeks ago there were big beautiful parades and lots of frolicking -- It was the Loy Krathong Festival. I'd post some of the photos I took, but I am a poor photographer.

 

[aupmanyav]

Nice thread. I appreciate it.

 

[Swammerdami]

Time Out (a "British media and hospitality company") prepared a List of the world's "best cities" for travelers. They asked city-dwellers and "experts." Cape Town came out as #1.

Guess what city was #2. I've used a tiny font in lieu of spoiler tags.

#1 Cape Town, South Africa
#2 ^{Bangkok, Thailand}
#3 New York, US
#4 Melbourne, Australia
#5 London, UK
#6 New Orleans, US
#7 Mexico City, Mexico
#8 Porto, Portugal
#9 Shanghai, China
#10 Copenhagen, Denmark
#11 Chicago, US
#12 Lisbon, Portugal
#13 Edinburgh, UK
#14 Hong Kong
#15 Sydney, Australia
#16 Amsterdam, Netherlands
#17 Barcelona, Spain
#18 Seville, Spain
#19 Paris, France
#20 Medellín, Colombia
#21 Hanoi, Vietnam
. . . . . . .

WOW! I daresay most everyone in Chiang Mai will be surprised by this! Salaries are significantly higher in "The Big Mango," but prices are much higher, traffic jams much worse and so on. And Chiang Mai has become a tourists' "Mecca." Erotic entertainment IS cheaper in the Big City; I wonder what sort of "experts" this "hospitality company" consulted!

 

[Swammerdami]

Pai is a small town (2006 population 2300) in Mae Hong Son, about a 4-hour drive from Chiang Mai. I've never been there: In fact I'd never heard of it until a few years ago. But it is a very major tourist destination. A large portion of the backpackers one sees in Chiang Mai are either on their way to Pai, or just coming back. Once it was a little-known very scenic destination, but now I see pictures of almost wall-to-wall people. A (hill-people) woman I knew went there often, in part to get some sort of "mushroom juice"! My wild days are in the distant past, so I have no report to offer on this "mushroom juice."

The reason I mention Pai will appear after a long and general report on "Ethnic Diversity" here, e.g of tourists.

Ethnic Diversity in Thailand

In rural Central Thailand Farangs are rare and almost all the population is Thai. The more affluent middle class has a very high portion of people with Chinese ancestry, but they've mostly lived in Thailand for generations and don't stand out unless you notice Chinese religious motifs.

(Of course even "Thai" covers a broad range. I chatted with a woman born in Buri Ram who was fluent in FOUR languages since childhood: Thai, Isaan, Khmer and Suay. Isaan and Suay are closely related to Thai and Khmer respectively, but they are classed as distinct languages, NOT as dialects. She lives in Chiang Mai now but I didn't ask how fluent she was in Kam Mueang -- the native language here, close to Central Thai but again a distinct language, not a dialect.)

But in urban areas, especially where tourists congregate, ethnic diversity is high, both among tourists, expat workers and retirees, but also among workers. Just as many of the dishwashers and motel maids in California speak Spanish instead of English, so the down-market restaurants in Chiang Mai are often staffed by people who may speak English, but little or no Thai -- with "Tai Yai" perhaps the most common such ethnic group here in Chiang Mai. In addition to "Hill People", who've lived for generations in Thailand but atop remote mountains, there are ethnic groups that seem to migrate between Burma and Thailand. (The political, military and ethnic variables that permit or prohibit such migration are too complicated to get into.) Last week I got a massage from a Lisu woman who came from near the Burmese border.

Decades ago there was a "German mafia" in Pattaya, but I think they were superseded by Russians. Many signs in Pattaya had Russian language as well as English. Some of the Anglophonic bar owners in Pattaya moved to Kanchanaburi City and set up a tiny Western bar district there ... but soon complained that Russians were appearing there also!

Google quickly informs that countries of visitors to the Kingdom in January rank #1 China, Malaysia, Russia, South Korea, India, U.K., U.S., Taiwan, Germany, and #10 France. Tourism in Chiang Mai has been booming for a while, but I found no numbers specific to that Province.

I DID see recent numbers for nationality of tourists in Pai:

Statistics for foreign tourists in Pai in 2024 show 221,776 visitors, ranked as follows: 1. British, 2. Israeli, 3. Dutch, 4. German, and 5. American.

In fact it was this that caused me to post at all. With less than 10 million people, Israel is a smallish country yet ranks #2 in visits to Pai!!?!?

(221,776 visitors seems absurdly large for the small town of Pai, whose 2006 population was a mere 2300. One reason for the high count is that foreign visitors are counted by the TM30 forms filed: a tourist who stays in two different guest houses will get two TM30 forms; with the Tourism software possibly not bothering to check for duplicate passport numbers.)

My friends on Floating Fortune Road in Chiang Mai inform me that they have many Israeli customers, and that these tend to be trouble-makers.

And at the top of my news-feed today were reports from Pai about unruly behavior and deportations. As shown in the image below some small business owners in Pai no longer want Israeli customers.

 

[Swammerdami]

The Finals of the Miss Grand Thailand contest were held today. I wouldn't have known about it but my daughter was eager to watch. In fact the whole family watched rather than play our usual evening board game.

I'm not usually a fan of such things: Excess pulchritude just makes me regret I'm not 40 years younger or so; and anyway for sheer lasciviousness there's always K-Pop videos. There were 77 contestants -- one for each of Thailand's provinces -- and the stages featured spectacular multiple costumes, singing and more. The show lasted 4 hours just for this final day. I'm linking to that video. It has the finalists wearing VERY fancy "evening dress", answering questions, etc. Mostly it's taken up with the awarding of a variety of secondary prizes. Miss Grand Phuket got a huge number of these prizes -- so many in fact that it seemed obvious she would take away the Top Prize also.

The timestamp on the link is set to show three contestants' 2nd swimsuit presentation; in order:

• Miss Grand Phuket - 170 cm; 33-24-36
• Miss Grand Lampang - 168 cm ; 37-27-39
• Miss Grand Lamphun - 173 cm ; 35-26-40

I thought it fortuitous that these three showed off their bikinis consecutively. Miss Phuket is the eventual winner; and the 39- and 40-inch hips that follow help test my theory that large hips can make a woman appear voluptuous.

Phuket was Thailand's richest province (tin and rubber) even before it developed resorts for the rich. Girls from other provinces were welcome to apply to be Miss Grand Phuket, if eager for the rich sponsors.

Lampang and Lamphun are two provinces directly to the south of Chiang Mai. Miss Grand Chiang Mai herself was eliminated before the Final 20.




In spoiler is another link to the SAME video. Perhaps someone can explain the difference between the URL's (beyond commenting that the video was once "live").

Spoiler

 

[Swammerdami]

Pursuing my fetish for literal translations of Thai place names.

One of the main roads in Chiang Mai changes name twice. To the East of the Ping River, it is Prosper-City Road. That's the road I almost always took after the long drive to Chiang Mai (smart drivers would pick a "freeway" exit closer to their destination, but this exit is best to get to the Old City).

After crossing the Ping River, Prosper-City Road becomes Raft-Pier Road. I'm guessing that visitors in ancient times would take a raft across the Ping River -- though now they take the Nawarat Bridge, named after the 9th and final ruler of the Thepphachak Dynasty. Raft-Pier Road heads straight for Raft-Pier Gate, one of four entrances to the old fortified city. Clockwise from Raft-Pier Gate the other three gates are named New-City, Flower-Garden, Albino-Elephant.

To the West of Raft-Pier Gate is Royal Walk Road; it can be thought of as a continuation of Raft-Pier Road: 2- and 3-wheelers can traverse from one road to the other. Traversing Raft-Pier Square and passing through Raft-Pier Gate with a 4-wheeler can also be done, sort of, but is likely to attract adverse police attention.

I like to imagine an ancient visitor crossing the River via raft, hiring a rickshaw to take him to Raft-Pier Gate and on to Royal Walk Road. (There is a same-named Royal Walk Road in Bangkok; it connects the Royal Palace to Government Park.) Royal Walk is /rat-cha-dam-noen/ in Thai, /dam-noen/ being cognate to the usual word for 'walk' but 2 syllables instead of 1, more elegant, and often better translated as the verb 'to conduct.'

About 1100 meters West of the Gate, Royal Walk Road ends in a T-intersection at the Temple of Lord Lion (elevated to a Great Monastery by the older brother of Bhumipol the Great); this is Chiang Mai's premier temple.

On Sunday Evening, Royal Walk Road is closed to traffic and becomes a walking street market along its entire 1100-meter length. A wide variety of souvenirs, beverages, etc. are for sale but it's hard to recommend: The presence of several thousand tourists makes it almost impassable. You'll have to fight across foot traffic just to catch a glimpse of what merchants are selling.

What does all this have to do with "Driving in Chiang Mai"? There's a simple restaurant I like near Raft-Pier Gate, but I have to check the date before I go. To find parking I approach from the East on odd-numbered dates, and from the West on even-numbered dates. Today I approached from the West at Noon and was surprised to see lots of free parking (I'm usually lucky to find one spot). There were even a few pickups parked on the opposite (odd-dates only) side. 'Aha!' I remembered it was Sunday. Although the Market wouldn't open for several hours, merchants had to set up before the tow trucks arrived, and would look with disfavor on my parking there. Off to a different restaurant for me.

 

[Swammerdami]

Five of the 25 largest shopping malls in the world are in Thailand; The US has only one on that Top 25 List: The Mall of America near Minneapolis-St. Paul. (China and Philippines also have 5 malls each on the list; Iran has 3 including the largest mall in the world.) Wikipedia's rankings use retail floor space so Bangkok's ICONSIAM is only #11 in the world; it would rank much higher if museums, halls, 600 residential/hotel units etc. were included.

None of those largest malls are in Chiang Mai (though Phuket has one). The largest shopping malls in Chiang Mai are Central Festival ("Cen-Fes") and Central Airport ("Ro", nick-named after the large Robinson Dept. Store). 3rd place in size but perhaps #1 in popularity is the Maya Lifestyle Shopping Center. Of these three, I always drive to "Ro", to limit driving adventure. It's only 3 km from our home as the crow flies (though unlike that crow, I don't travel through the airport runway).

I guess these huge shopping malls are an East Asian thing. I see only one California mall (South Coast Plaza in Costa Mesa) as large as Chiang Mai's Cen-Fes.

For ordinary shopping my kids go to the nearby Big C Supercenter. I don't see square-footage quotes for it, but it is rather huge itself, though not as gargantuan as the city's 3 biggest malls. I don't even go there; I go to the Lotus's, a short easy drive and on my usual route. It's much smaller than the Big C Supercenter, but I wouldn't call it "small." It has a very large grocery store, a several restaurants, a half-dozen tiny coffee shops, a half-dozen pastry shops, a very large DIY (is this also a US brand?), 2 large play areas for kids, 2 gold shops, etc. It has two drugstores (with a 3rd in walking distance for exotic hard-to-find medicines). I like this Lotus's: it seems "cozy" compared with a giant mall and is about the right size for me!