A reminder to all the Hamas apologists in this thread... Hamas are still holding hostages.
A reminder to all the exaggerating-to-the-point-of-lying types in this thread... there are no Hamas apologists in this thread.
I admire your persistence, but it hopeless. Any disinterested reader will immediately recognize the “Hamas apologists” for the slander it is. Any disinterested reader will immediately recognize generalizations such as “the Palestinians are incapable of governing themselves” as senseless bigotry. Posts containing such phrases only appeal to likeminded people.
Lol... yeah... keep defending Hamas.
No one has been defending Hamas. You either imagined it, or you deliberately misinterpreted what people have been saying.
If you say you don't but everything else you say implies it, then you support Hamas.
If I say I don't, then I don't.
If you think what I say implies it, spell it out for me. How does saying Hamas must be defeated militarily, removed from power in Gaza, and prevented from gaining power in the West Bank imply I support Hamas?
Be specific.
If you're simply unwilling to accept that people who want Hamas to be defeated can also want Netanyahu to lose the next election and for the right-wing haters like BenGvir to lose power, then that's on you.
Then support Israel's actions in Gaza.
I support the ones necessary to combat Hamas militants and prevent further terrorist attacks, to destroy weapon caches, to prevent more weapons from reaching Hamas fighters, etc.
I do not support flagrant violations of human rights and/or war crimes.
When Israeli forces are doing the first and avoiding the second, then that's still pretty dire for civilians caught in the conflict but IMO the shooting, bombing, and killing is a necessary evil, because not meeting force with force would further empower terrorists.
When Israeli forces are doing the first and not trying to avoid the second, that's not something I find acceptable. They can do better and IMO they should.
When Israeli forces are committing flagrant violations of human rights and posters here are defending it or hand waving it away, that's fucked up. And when those same posters try to shame the defenders of human rights with name calling and horseshit accusations, that IMO is morally bankrupt excluded middle Ad Hominem propagandistic hogwash.
Based on what I've seen they couldn't be doing a better job, based on the circumstances. They’re being super careful not to harm civilians.
Did you not read the reports of the
targeting system being used by the IDF or how the IDF authorized bombing buildings full of civilians if a suspected foot soldier was inside, and the killing of up to 100 civilians if the target was suspected of being high rank?
That's not being super careful. That's flagrant disregard for civilians in the vicinity of a strike.
They only strike targets of attacked by Hamas soldiers. I appreciate the extreme difficulty fighting an enemy, doing their utmost to appear as civiliansin in, a densely populated area. At this point, condemning Israel is to play right in to the Hamas propaganda machine. If you do that still, I'm going to call you a Hamas apologist.
It
is difficult to fight militants/soldiers in a populated area and/or urban environment. That does not justify wanton sprays of bullets or bombing buildings in which civilians are taking refuge, or destroying every single medical facility where wounded civilians might receive care, or cutting off food and water deliveries, or any of the other actions that violate the Geneva Conventions or international laws.
Also, please try to remember that criticizing the policies of the government under Netanyahu or the current Rules of Engagement for the IDF in Gaza isn't a condemnation of Israel. It is a condemnation of policies and rules.
Seriously, are you of the opinion that Israel can do no wrong? If you are, well, that certainly explains a lot.
I want Netanyahu to lose the election. I am not conservative. But I am enough of a man to admit that even my political opponents can sometimes do a good job. After 7/10 I think Netanyahu has done an excellent job. Including Israel’s actions in Lebanon and Syria. FYI, taking out the leadership of Hezbollah lead directly to the downfall of Assad in Syria. All of these conflicts are connected. Netanyahu played the game like a master. I am very impressed
I am aware that western press is now heavily tilted towards antisemitism (old habits die slow). But you need minimal effort to inform yourself.
If the effort is minimal then you should have no problem supporting your claims as I and others have asked you to do.
Link to your sources. Quote people when you are claiming they said or implied something. Show us the history you are referring to when you say something did or did not work.
Show, don't just tell.
Just read the fucking news!!!
I do read the fucking news.
I also link to news reports that support the claims I'm making so others can read the same fucking news I have read and check my sources to see if the news I get is reliable and well documented or if it's garbage even Tucker Carlson wouldn't touch.
Link to your sources. Support your claims. Show us the events you say happened.
pay attention to "according to Hamas". "According to Israel". Look at who is saying what and think about why they may be saying it.
Hamas is a pure propaganda machine. They're not even trying to be accurate. They're clearly just pulling names and numbers out of their ass. Israel is also spinning the truth. But they're at least making an effort to seem convincing.
The media publishes statements from both Hamas and Israel. But somehow the Hamas numbers keep breing treated as accurate
Here's just the first thing that came up when I googled this
Given the discrepancies in official Palestinian counts and their growing reliance on questionable data from media reports, the credibility gaps revealed by a previous Washington Institute study have become yawning chasms.
www.washingtoninstitute.org
Also, you keep substituting terms as though 'Hamas', 'Gazan', Palestinian', and 'Islamist' are interchangable when they're not. It's like saying all Jews beat women who refuse to sit in the back of the bus and throw stones at kids walking to school. It's exaggerated, extremist, excluded middle fallacy bullshit.
I don't. I really don't confuse them. I just dislike the habit of blaming everything on Hamas, as if the Palestinian people have no responsibility in allowing them to take control in Gaza. They sold their country to Iran in exchange for cheap trinkets. They should have seen it coming. Which I think they did. Islam has an extremely unhealthy martyr culture. Which I think is at the core of why the Palestinians allowed this to happen. But they did! People should be held accountable for their actions. It's good that Israel is doing that.
So you're just going to ignore the fact that over 50% of the people in Gaza were children and teenagers when Hamas terrorists carried out an attack inside Israel in October 2023? That only approximately 150,000 of the more than 2 million Gazans alive at that time had voted for Hamas in the one election that was held, and that an almost equal number voted for a different party? That the Palestinians fought in a short but bloody civil war when Hamas took over? You're just going to broad brush them all and say "they" willingly sold out to Iran? All those kids should have seen "it" coming when less than half of their elders voted for Hamas almost 20 years ago?
I would call that argument silly if it wasn't so dehumanizing and dangerous.
What?!? You're the defending Hamas using women and children as human shields?
How did you get that from what I wrote?
Lay out your thought processes here. I asked you if you were going to ignore the fact that over 50% of the Gazans were children when Hamas carried out the attack, pointed out how few adult Gazans actually voted for Hamas and how bitterly others fought against Hamas taking over, and how ridiculous it is for you to say "they", the children and the adults who lost the civil war, willingly sold out to Iran. How exactly did you reach the conclusion I was defending Hamas?
Who's dehumanizing people? Your moral compas is fucked
The Palestinians have been behaving like this for generations now. Why now suddenly do you think they might have had a change of heart? I think your blank slate fantasy about the Palestinians is dangerously naive
And it's not like Gaza is unique. All of the Middle East is full of these martyr armies that keep destabilising them leading to dictatorship. Whose fault and responsibility is that, if not the people who live there? Colonialism died over half a century ago. We can't just keep blaming white people and give the Muslims a free pass to behave like they do. Its not cool. It's also racism. I think brown people are fully capable of being responsible adults who can take responsibility for their actions. Don’t you think we should treat them as such?
We should treat them as such.
We should stop trying to dictate the terms of their lives and allow them the same Rights and degree of self determination we expect for ourselves.
If they want to crown a king, that's their business. If they refuse to bow down to the king the British picked out for them, that's also their business. If they want to be Communists, Socialists, Anarcho-syndicalists, Tribalists, Humanists, Atheists, confederated independent libertarian democratic Republicans, then that's their business, too. However they want to run their lives and organize their societies is up to them, not you, to decide.
You can have your own opinion about their choices but you have no Right to impose your choices on them.
Then I don't see why you are arguing against me? They chose a king and that king attacked Israel and now it's shit for them. Actions and consequences. Israel did not deserve this. You keep ignoring just how extreme the 7/10 attack was. It was barbaric to a degree we haven't seen in generations.
The Palestinians did not choose to have Palestine divided by the British and the UN so that more than half of it could be "given" to approximately 30% of the population, most of whom were recent European immigrants, many of them illegal to boot.
They did not choose to be murdered by Zionist terrorists and have their land and homes stolen. They did not choose to be forced into refugee camps and ghettos like Gaza.
They did not choose to have Israel dictate how much water they receive, what foodstuffs they could import, how many donated school supplies their schools could bring in, when or if they could travel, etc.
You do that. Enjoy the feeling of supporting genocide and terrorism. It's not slander. It's just the truth.
Why is it bigotry? If something has been tried repeatedly, but doesn't work.
What has been tried? Be specific. Cite sources that support your claims about the 'what' and when it was tried. Are you talking about something Ben Gurion did at Israel's founding? Was it something the Sharett Administration did? Did it happen when Meir and Sadat worked out a plan for the Sinai peninsula? Was it something you would call just and fair if it was done to you? What are you talking about?
If you can't find evidence that supports your claims about the 'what' then IMO you should seriously consider whether it really did happen, or if you bought into a nice little story.
Israel has always let the Palestinians who live in Israel do their thing.
Israel did not let the Palestinians "do their thing" when it was
forcibly removing them from their homes and communities. It did not let them "do their thing" when it prevented the ones remaining inside what became Israel to rebuild the villages targeted for destruction by the
Jewish Agency for Israel, formerly the Jewish Agency for Palestine.
Discrimination against Christians and Muslims in Israel and the Occupied Territories is an on-going issue.
Stop posting irrelevant propaganda.
It's not irrelevant when it's a direct response to what you wrote. It's not propaganda when it's a truthful, factual account that avoids exaggeration or appeals to emotion.
Yes, it's been an issue regarding how Israel should handle the occupied territories. But Israel did fight wars over them where they were not the aggressors. They took that land fair and square. It sucks to lose wars. Considering how aggressive Israel's neighbours have been its appropriate that they take precautions.
Why do you keep giving the countries who attacked Israel a free pass?
https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/...horities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution
Life is certainly more peaceful for Muslim Palestinians inside Israel's borders than in the West Bank or Gaza, but let's be real here. Israel was founded and built on the principals of favoring one particular religious/ethnic group over all others.
No it wasn't. And isn't. I'm not allowed to call you an antisemite, because I'll get another warning. So I won't.
Supreme Court rejects 'Israeli' national status in the national registry or on citizens' ID cards because Israel is the Jewish State; letting people simply be known as Israeli and not identifying which ones are Jews would undermine Israel's founding principles, according to the highest authority in the land.
If you think Israel wasn't founded as a Jewish State for the benefit of Jews, or that the preference for Jewish citizens above all others wasn't built into Israel's founding and its Basic Laws, then you really don't know anything about Israel.
It is not possible for it to treat all people equally.
well, they are and always have. Israel is a modern liberal democracy. Not more oppressive than any western country. Just with very angry neighbours
They're not persecuted. They're not marginalised. They're not pressured to do military service. They're right now living in Israel and don't feel the need to flee for their lives. They're just part of Israeli society. Somehow people keep forgetting that.
The wall was built in response to the continued suicide bombings. Something which Gazan authorities have done nothing to stop. The Gazan authorities have always been in cahoots with the terrorists. The result of this is predictable. But Israel did let Gaza run their own affairs and we got the authoritarian mess we tend to see in Muslim majority countries
The
Gaza-Israel Wall predates the
suicide attacks by more than 20 years.
Gaza's
history as an isolated enclave full of refugees is much longer and more complicated than your posts indicate. Resolving those problems is going to take time and effort, especially if all that's on offer is more ethnic cleansing and apartheid.
