Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Jimmy Higgins]

This has to be one of the most damning agreements I can remember. There is nothing in this agreement that makes either of the parties involved look like anything but fools.

Israel gets some hostages, Hamas gets some prisoners. Local Arab nations continue to show their disinterest in the Palestinians. None of this couldn't have come months ago. This agreement contains 0% of the needed content regarding where to go from here, merely a '...and then we'll figure out the rest'. For Netanyahu's part, he traded 6 to 12 months of those hostages' captivity for no permanent gains against Hamas. For Hamas, they get some prisoners and increase in aid. Aid that isn't even the tip of the iceberg for what Gaza needs. Parts of Gaza lay in ruins. There are Gazans that'll never be in a home again.

Foreign powers see this as a catalyst for a two state solution. A solution that Netanyahu won't accept and that the Western/Arab powers won't pay for as we all know there is no permanent ceasefire and the West/Arab powers don't want to pay for the new buildings that'll be blown up by Israel's military in response to the latest attack by Hamas.

This agreement sucks in that it comes way too late, and the delay provided zero benefits to those suffering the most. It could have ended the nightmares of people up to a year ago, but instead we have to be happy it at least happened at all. There is no future for the Gazans. And no one has the guts to tell them that.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Given your posting history, I do not expect you to approve of any peace deal that leaves adult Gazans still alive and having any say in Gaza's future.

Bullshit cubed!
I do not approve of a deal releasing a thousand terrorists in the first phase alone.
I do not approve of a deal that keeps Hamas in power (Hamas and Islamic Jihad definitely should not "have any say in Gaza's future").
I do not approve of a deal that, already in the first phase, forces IDF to abandon the strategically important Netzarim Corridor.

Derec supports the indefinite detention of the hostages because a deal that can't be had... can't be had. That is ridiculous and lacks the least bit of pragmatism. There is no permanent ceasefire, so why in the heck would you allow that to keep the hostages detained?

Another thing from the article:

In a third phase, the bodies of remaining hostages would be returned in exchange for a three- to five-year reconstruction plan to be carried out in Gaza under international supervision.

How is Gaza supposed to be rebuilt if Hamas is left in charge? They will redirect most investment and construction materials toward their ends, such as rebuilding their tunnel network. And to the extent that any civilian rebuilding is actually accomplished, Hamas has already indicated they intend to repeat 10/7 over and over again. Which means there will be war again, and thus any reconstruction is futile unless and until there is a real regime change in Gaza.

Also, 3-5 year reconstruction plan? Isn't that wildly optimistic? It will take most of that timeframe just to remove all the rubble.

I'm glad you recognize the near impossible difficulty that is rebuilding Gaza. Israel tore it down, there is no one who cares to rebuild it. The solution involves Iran, and no one wants to go there. It is bitterly disappointing how stubborn and fool hardy the parties involved in this are.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I'm not interested into getting involved in this discussion to any extent, but I read an article last week that gave a lot of evidence that Israel isn't doing much of anything to protect civilians. Maybe some of you don't care, but I'll gift the article and challenge those who claim Israel is trying to protect civilians to read it.

NY Times is hardly on honest on this. Besides, I don't need to look at how they have twisted things, the death toll says all that needs to be said. Incredibly low for this type of combat.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive...e_code=1.mE4.oQrk.kFdH_jntD16U&smid=url-share

Seems to me that Israel has really fucked things up and likely will end up causing more problems for the area. Some of the information in the investigation was given by members of the IDF, without using their names of course. Amnesty International among others have accused Israel of severe war crimes, but sadly some of you seem to think it's okay, as long as they keep trying to eliminate Hamas, which imo, is fucking stupid.

And Amnesty International is worthless.

Yay! Loren knows the Real Truth^(TM) about the Israel/Hamas conflict. Why should they send journalists and investigators into dangerous situations and report their findings when they can just ask Loren what's going on?

The results speak for themselves. The death toll (even the false numbers claimed by Hamas) is incredibly low given the nature of the combat.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

In other words, the only answer is the destruction of Israel and the genocide of the Jews?

Or they could just leave and give the country back to the people they stole it from.

Where will the Jews go once they have left the ME? Can they stay at your place?

They should go back where they came from. MAGA!

You have to admit that no one asked the Palestinians already living there if it was okay to give their country to foreigners.

You think it's a joke that Trump wants to take over Canada, Greenland, etc. You know it's absurd. But that was exactly what was done to the Palestinians that were already living there, including Jews and Christians.

The majority of the Jews there came from Arab lands. So you're going to send them to genocide.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

In other words, the only answer is the destruction of Israel and the genocide of the Jews?

Or they could just leave and give the country back to the people they stole it from.

A lot of people appear to feel that anti-Israeli bigotry doesn't count as antisemitism as long as it's not directed against all Jews, just Israelis. I guess they're technically correct. But then, a guy who has nothing against black people from Africa and only despises African-Americans is still racist.

Loren said there was no alternative. I provided one. There are many more.

Your "solution" is genocide.

Would you tell the woman to go back to her abuser because she's causing the problem by defying him? Yet you have no problem with telling the Jews that.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

And the IDF bombs some place and lots of people are dead.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Thursday that a last-minute dispute with Hamas was holding up Israeli approval of a long-awaited ceasefire that would pause the fighting in the Gaza Strip and release dozens of hostages. Israeli airstrikes, meanwhile, killed at least 72 people in the war-ravaged territory.

What the heck is left to bomb?

Although the Israeli Cabinet had been set to vote on the deal Thursday, Netanyahu's office said it would not convene until Hamas backs down, accusing the Palestinian militant group of reneging on parts of the agreement in an attempt to gain further concessions — without specifying which parts.

I'd be quite content with the zealots killing each other off. That doesn't help the hostages though.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The main problem is that Hamas have made it as hard as possible for Israel to avoid hitting civilians. With that in mind Israel is doing an excellent job. It could have been a lot worse for the Palestinians. A lot worse

Exactly. The propaganda keeps focusing on how many "died" (quotes as there are a lot of problem with the data), completely ignoring how that compares to expectations.

Is that surgeon a terrible surgeon because he loses 10% of his patients? Or is he a terrific surgeon because the expected mortality rate is 50%?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Israel has left countless without a place to go home to. So while Israel did an adequate job at not actively targeting Hamas with no thought of civilians, there is the issue of there is less and less of Gaza for Palestinians to call home.

Yes. Lots and lots of homes were destroyed. As Hamas intended.

Yes, this is more the fault of Hamas, but should there be no consideration for the Palestinians left homeless or shall we be resigned to accept that tens of thousands, hundreds or thousands of Gazans will live in refugee camps for several years? THe reconstruction of Gaza is an opportunity to minimize Hamas via a multi-lateral agreement among Iran, Saudi Arabia, the emirates, and the West, but no one seems to give a damn about the reconstruction (and there appears no one with the diplomatic Sauvé faire to make it happen). LP might disagree, but the longer Gaza is allowed to rot, the worse things will be for Israel.

You still don't get it--Gaza is a symptom, not the problem. The problem is the terror money. You keep trying to treat the symptom and pretend that will fix the problem.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Israel has left countless without a place to go home to. So while Israel did an adequate job at not actively targeting Hamas with no thought of civilians, there is the issue of there is less and less of Gaza for Palestinians to call home.

Yes. Lots and lots of homes were destroyed. As Hamas intended.

Yes, this is more the fault of Hamas, but should there be no consideration for the Palestinians left homeless or shall we be resigned to accept that tens of thousands, hundreds or thousands of Gazans will live in refugee camps for several years? THe reconstruction of Gaza is an opportunity to minimize Hamas via a multi-lateral agreement among Iran, Saudi Arabia, the emirates, and the West, but no one seems to give a damn about the reconstruction (and there appears no one with the diplomatic Sauvé faire to make it happen). LP might disagree, but the longer Gaza is allowed to rot, the worse things will be for Israel.

You still don't get it--Gaza is a symptom, not the problem. The problem is the terror money. You keep trying to treat the symptom and pretend that will fix the problem.

How in the heck is there going to be terror money if a deal with the Emirates, Saudi Arabia, and the west funding the rebuilding of Gaza. You think any of them will tolerate their money to rebuild structures that'll be pounded back down by Israel in retaliation for the latest Iranian funded assault on Israel? Having the Arabs help fund, in large part, the reconstruction would be enough of a self-reinforcing block to terror funding in Gaza.

Your problem is, you aren't good at solving real problems and using diplomacy to entrap those into positions they wouldn't have otherwise taken.

 

[laughing dog]

In other words, the only answer is the destruction of Israel and the genocide of the Jews?

Or they could just leave and give the country back to the people they stole it from.

Where will the Jews go once they have left the ME? Can they stay at your place?

They should go back where they came from. MAGA!

You have to admit that no one asked the Palestinians already living there if it was okay to give their country to foreigners.

You think it's a joke that Trump wants to take over Canada, Greenland, etc. You know it's absurd. But that was exactly what was done to the Palestinians that were already living there, including Jews and Christians.

The majority of the Jews there came from Arab lands. So you're going to send them to genocide.

Please stop with that bigoted nonsense. Yes there are places where it would be dangerous, but there are plenty of Arabic and Muslim countries where it isn't.

 

[laughing dog]

Israel has left countless without a place to go home to. So while Israel did an adequate job at not actively targeting Hamas with no thought of civilians, there is the issue of there is less and less of Gaza for Palestinians to call home.

Yes. Lots and lots of homes were destroyed. As Hamas intended.

Yes, this is more the fault of Hamas, but should there be no consideration for the Palestinians left homeless or shall we be resigned to accept that tens of thousands, hundreds or thousands of Gazans will live in refugee camps for several years? THe reconstruction of Gaza is an opportunity to minimize Hamas via a multi-lateral agreement among Iran, Saudi Arabia, the emirates, and the West, but no one seems to give a damn about the reconstruction (and there appears no one with the diplomatic Sauvé faire to make it happen). LP might disagree, but the longer Gaza is allowed to rot, the worse things will be for Israel.

You still don't get it--Gaza is a symptom, not the problem. The problem is the terror money. You keep trying to treat the symptom and pretend that will fix the problem.

You approve of Israel treating the symptom but not the problem. Why the double standard?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The main problem is that Hamas have made it as hard as possible for Israel to avoid hitting civilians. With that in mind Israel is doing an excellent job. It could have been a lot worse for the Palestinians. A lot worse.

True. It is also true it could have been less worse for the Palestinians as well.-

Continuing to assert this doesn't make it true. Your "solution" consists of the faith-based position that there must be a better answer. It's the biggest failing of the left.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The essence of bigotry is to divide people into categories and then treat the members of one of your categories as interchangeable parts. The Israelis who could leave and give the country up are not the same people as the Israelis who stole the country. You accused current Israelis of a wrongdoing they didn't commit based on whom they're related to. That's no different from calling Mexicans rapists because some Mexican raped a woman. If somebody did that to Mexicans you'd notice; but when somebody does that to Israelis you don't notice. That's having a double-standard. This is not rocket science.

Some other aspects:

The presumption that Israel is in the wrong, always having to prove their actions were proper (and then the proof gets ignored by the world's media.)

The idea that they should just go home. The majority were expelled from Arab lands--to "go home" is to die.

The idea that if something doesn't represent an existential threat that it doesn't matter. 1,200 dead Jews won't destroy Israel, thus Israel is not justified in any action beyond the law enforcement level.

Compare the Jews to circa 1900 blacks.

Partially related:

The idea that the death toll somehow is evidence of right and wrong. It is most prevalent in the Israeli situation but it's actually a widespread tactic. Evil overlord arranges things so their people die in a fashion that the enemy can be blamed for. Consider, for example, Iraq under Saddam. Specifically, the oil-for-food situation. Iraq was perfectly well capable of feeding etc it's population but half a million died because Saddam wanted to appear to be suffering under the sanctions.

1) Saddam was exporting food to get money to buy weapons.

2) A decent portion of the oil-for-food money wasn't even spent.

And, unrelated to Israel:

The idea that helping person A from a disadvantaged group somehow balances the harm done to person B of that group. It's individuals that matter. Averages can be useful for identifying problems but what we see now Goodhart's law in action.

The incessant accusations that the current generation of Israelis are guilty of stealing the country isn't just typical Abrahamic "Original Sin" ideology; it's an active element in the ongoing movement to incite violence against Israeli noncombatants.

Objection: It's an active element in attempting to define all Israelis as combatants.

There are many more.

No doubt. But there's no shortage of people talking about Loren's errors.

And rarely correctly. Most of the objections are handwaves, irrelevancies, or moving the goalposts.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

In other words, the only answer is the destruction of Israel and the genocide of the Jews?

Or they could just leave and give the country back to the people they stole it from.

Where will the Jews go once they have left the ME? Can they stay at your place?

Who says they have to leave the Middle East?

Hamas does*, yeah, but you're not talking to Hamas here, and Hamas at its most popular fell far short of 50% approval among Palestinians. So who are you talking to?

You are presenting an Excluded Middle fallacy when you insist the only options are total conquest or total extirpation/eradication. Obviously there are other possible outcomes. One needs only to look at how other wars and outbreaks of ethnic/religious strife have ended to realize it.


*Hamas says the "Zionist entity" must go. Whether or not that means the complete removal of all Jews from Palestine is not clear, but it is obvious they do not want a Jewish State there, and will not tolerate Christian and Muslims Palestinians to be subjugated by one.

Hamas has made it clear they intend genocide. They just usually do not say so in English.

And note that removing the Jewish state is the equivalent of forcing a domestic violence victim to go back to her abuser.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Do you have an example of any outbreaks of ethnic/religious strife where everyone lived happily ever after?

Northern Ireland is holding up pretty well so far.

Because the flow of money for terror went away. Note how the Marxist groups of the world withered away when Russia imploded.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

In other words, the only answer is the destruction of Israel and the genocide of the Jews?

Or they could just leave and give the country back to the people they stole it from.

Where will the Jews go once they have left the ME? Can they stay at your place?

Who says they have to leave the Middle East?

Ziprhead?

Hamas does*, yeah, but you're not talking to Hamas here, and Hamas at its most popular fell far short of 50% approval among Palestinians. So who are you talking to?

You are presenting an Excluded Middle fallacy when you insist the only options are total conquest or total extirpation/eradication.

Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, Islamic Jihad, IS et. al. have all made it clear that Jews are not to be in the ME.

Please provide sources that support your claims.

Islamic Jihad has rejected the Oslo Accords and any possibility of a Two State solution and would probably drive out every Jewish person living in the lands it wants to rule, but Iran's Jewish community is officially recognized as a religious minority group by the government, and, like the Zoroastrians and Christians, they are allocated one seat in the Iranian Parliament.

"I can't be racist, I have black friends."

You can't just conflate every political group in the region that isn't Zionist, even if they are all opposed to Israel's activities in the West Bank and Gaza. There's a reason they have different names and leaders.

Most of the groups over there are under some degree of Iranian control. They are not independent entities.

But if you're interested in the part of the Charter that says "Hamas confirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but against the Zionists who occupy Palestine", or where it says "Hamas rejects the persecution of any human being or the undermining of his or her rights on nationalist, religious or sectarian grounds", you can go back to that part of the discussion here, or look up the Charter itself.

Hamas can say that but it's record says otherwise. Hint: You don't want to be a Christian in Palestinian-controlled areas.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

This disagreement over the future of Gaza is about what happens after Hamas has been defeated militarily and removed from political power.

Can you please tell us how this enchanted state of affairs will be achieved?

I have been telling you, Tigers!

You aren't listening.

There is no point in repeating the same things over and over again if all you're going to do is ignore it and then claim I never posted it.

Just go back to the guy who was beating you and be a good girl, everything will be fine.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

In other words, the only answer is the destruction of Israel and the genocide of the Jews?

Or they could just leave and give the country back to the people they stole it from.

Where will the Jews go once they have left the ME? Can they stay at your place?

Who says they have to leave the Middle East?

Ziprhead?

I didn't say they have to leave. Loren said there was no alternative to the war. Yes, there is an alternative. They can leave.

Typically, when people say there is an alternative they mean a reasonable alternative. I do not consider expecting most of them to die to be a reasonable alternative.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Here's another option.

Israel's Muslim neighbors, particularly the Palestinians, decide that they would prefer cooperation, prosperity, and peace. Instead of conflict, poverty, and war.

Given the history of the centuries, the last 70+ years in particular, it will probably take a generation or two before the Israelis believe in the change. But the most current assault (Oct 7, 2023) probably added another generation.
Tom

Doesn't matter if it takes a generation or two. Israel is a porcupine--leave them alone, they leave you alone. But they are quite aggressive about going after those who are trying to do bad things to them. Stop shooting at them, stop preparing to shoot at them and while they will probably regard you with considerable distrust for quite some time to come that isn't going to be translated into hostile acts.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yup, I said above there are many options. Loren wants nothing but war and can't envision anything else.

I don't want war. I just recognize that it's the least bad answer. Your "just leave" is asking for genocide.