What the Bible says about: The End of the World

pood · Mar 31, 2025

Learner said:
Um.. ok it hasn't happened. But folks ain't there supposed to be a sequence of events that happens before the return of Christ? For example...The Two Witnesses (some believe they're already here) ...the anti-christ is revealed before Jesus appears and so on.

Did anyone not notice the line where it says "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached to the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come...?"

Sounds to me this second coming is to be MUCH further in the future from what you (plural) erroneously think.

Jesus clearly states in several gospel accounts that he will return with his kingdom BEFORE people of the current generation died. It didn’t happen. It hasn’t happened yet. It’s never going to happen because it’s fiction.

pood · Mar 31, 2025

And, at the time, the “whole world” was considered the Roman Empire. Regardless, the “whole world” has now been preached to many times over, and still no Jesus.

ideologyhunter · Mar 31, 2025

This is the biggest teaser/cliffhanger outside of Austin Powers IV. And the world is clamoring for another round of Fat Bastard (G-d), Mini-Me (JC) and Dr. Evil (the Holy Smoke.) I know, there's a production hassle: Mini-Me is dead.

DLH · Mar 31, 2025

Spacetime Inhabitant said:
DLH said:

Jesus taught in parables for several reasons:

To keep some people from understanding what he was teaching.

To divide his listeners into two groups: his disciples, and everyone else.

To make his teachings easy to understand and memorable.

To reveal truths about the kingdom of God in a way that was less controversial or dangerous.

Click to expand...

1 (plus also 2) and 3 seem incompatible with each other.

Jesus was sent originally only for the Jews, correct? His message wasn't directed to the gentile. He was sent to believers (but lost) of Jehovah, Israel (Matthew 15:24)

steve_bank · Mar 31, 2025

DLH

If you want parables a I stared ab thread Bible As Wisdom Literature.

DLH · Mar 31, 2025

steve_bank said:
Leaner how do you possibly know when texts were actually written and how much of it is fiction?

Many people do not appreciate the Bible's superior reliability over secular historical records when it comes to dating, chronology, and historical events. The first step is understanding the difference between cardinal and ordinal numbers. Cardinal numbers (1, 2, 3, 10, 100, etc.) indicate full quantities, whereas ordinal numbers (3rd, 5th, 22nd, etc.) signify positions in a sequence, and you must subtract 1 from the ordinal to get the number of full years. For instance, the "18th year of Nebuchadnezzar" mentioned in Jeremiah 52:29 would actually encompass 17 full years plus whatever additional months, weeks, or days passed into the 18th year.

When calculating years across the BCE to CE divide, consider that from October 1, 1 BCE to October 1, 1 CE, there is only one year, not two, since these are ordinal designations. Thus, from October 1, 2 BCE (around the time of Jesus' birth) to October 1, 29 CE (around the time of his baptism), there are 30 years in total: one full year with three additional months in BCE, followed by 28 full years and nine months in CE.

Next, we should establish a pivotal date that both Biblical and secular histories largely agree upon, such as 29 CE. The early months of 29 CE fell in the 15th year of Tiberius Caesar's reign, who was named emperor by the Roman Senate on September 15, 14 CE (Gregorian calendar). This year also marks when John the Baptist began his ministry, baptizing Jesus six months later (Luke 3:1-3; 3:21, 23; 1:36).

Alternatively, we could use 539 BCE, the year Cyrus the Persian overthrew Babylon, as confirmed by historians like Diodorus, Africanus, Eusebius, Ptolemy, and the Babylonian tablets.

Cyrus issued a decree allowing the Jews to return from exile, likely in the winter of 538 BCE or spring of 537 BCE. This timing would have allowed them sufficient preparation for the four-month journey to Jerusalem, arriving by the seventh month (Tishri - October 1) of 537 BCE (Ezra 1:1-11; 2:64-70; 3:1).

Egyptian chronology holds a unique position due to its extensive use in ancient historical studies and because it intersects with the history of Israel at crucial points. According to biblical accounts, Israel entered Egypt around 1728 BCE and experienced the Exodus in 1513 BCE, 215 years later. Pharaoh Shishak's assault on Jerusalem happened during the fifth year of Rehoboam's reign in 993 BCE. King So of Egypt was contemporary with Hoshea, around 758 - 740 BCE, and Pharaoh Necho's battle, which resulted in the death of King Josiah, likely occurred in 629 BCE (1 Kings 14:25; 2 Kings 17:4; 2 Chronicles 35:20-24). Modern historians often diverge from these dates by up to a century, though by Necho's time, the variance narrows to about 20 years.

Modern historians rely on documents like Egyptian king lists and annals, including the fragmentary Palermo Stone, which outlines the first five "dynasties," and the Turin Papyrus, providing incomplete records of kings from the "Old Kingdom" to the "New Kingdom." These, along with other inscriptions, were chronologically organized by Manetho, an Egyptian priest from the third century BCE. Manetho categorized Egyptian monarchs into 30 dynasties, a system still employed by modern Egyptologists. His chronology is supported by astronomical data from Egyptian texts detailing lunar phases and the heliacal rising of Sothis (the Dog Star), allowing for the construction of a chronological framework.

Manetho's work survives only through the later writings of historians like Josephus, Sextus Julius Africanus, Eusebius, and Syncellus, from the third, fourth, and late eighth to early ninth centuries CE. These sources are fragmentary and often distorted, compounded by scribal errors, revisions, and the inclusion of much legend and myth.

Part of the issue with Manetho's chronology is that he included local princely lines from which later rulers of all Egypt emerged. Consequently, several Egyptian kings could rule simultaneously in different regions, not just in succession, leading to an inflated total number of years for Egyptian history. Thus, when the Bible places the Deluge at 2370 BCE, it implies that Egyptian civilization must have started post-Flood, even though traditional Egyptian chronology extends back to 3000 BCE.

Egyptologist Dr. Hans Goedicke of Johns Hopkins University proposed a controversial theory linking the Biblical account of the Red Sea crossing and the Exodus with a volcanic eruption at Thera in 1477 BCE, suggesting that this event caused a tsunami which drowned the Egyptian army. However, this theory largely ignores the Biblical narrative, which does not mention any such wave.

The Hyksos period in Egyptian history requires the same level of skepticism and scrutiny as other historical accounts. Some scholars suggest that the Hyksos, considered foreign invaders, ruled Egypt during the time when Joseph and his family arrived, reasoning that a non-Egyptian might more easily gain a high position under foreign rule. However, this theory contradicts the Biblical narrative where Potiphar, an Egyptian court official, and other native Egyptians surrounded Joseph (Genesis 39:1; Genesis 43:32).

Josephus, who introduced the term "Hyksos," acknowledged a connection between these invaders and the Israelites but disputed many of Manetho's details. Josephus favored interpreting "Hyksos" as "Captive Shepherds" over "Shepherd Kings."

According to Manetho, the Hyksos took control of Egypt without a fight and proceeded to destroy its cities and temples. He describes a later Egyptian uprising that led to a brutal conflict, culminating in a siege at Avaris, where an agreement allowed the Hyksos to leave Egypt peacefully to settle in Judea and even build Jerusalem. Manetho also adds a fantastical detail, which Josephus dismisses as fiction, about an influx of 80,000 leprous and diseased people settling in Avaris, leading to further complications (Against Apion 1:14; 26; 28).

Modern historians accept the idea of a Hyksos conquest but disagree with Josephus's association of the Hyksos with the Israelites, citing a lack of corroborative ancient Egyptian records for the "Thirteenth to Seventeenth Dynasties." The absence of records leads to speculation of a power vacuum during the "Thirteenth and Fourteenth Dynasties," and it's generally concluded that the "Fifteenth and Sixteenth Dynasties" were under Hyksos control based on limited evidence, folklore, and conjecture.

Archaeological interpretations of the Hyksos vary; some describe them as northern invaders with chariots, others as gradual infiltrators. Jaquetta Hawkes in "The World of the Past" (1963, p. 444) suggests they were Semitic traders rather than invaders, which raises questions about how these groups could have gained control during Egypt's peak power in the "Twelfth Dynasty." This reflects considerable confusion in ancient and modern interpretations of the Hyksos period, casting doubt on its validity.

Moreover, Egypt's history is intertwined with its priesthood and scribes, which might have led to propagandistic narratives to explain the actions of Egyptian gods in relation to Jehovah and the Exodus. The lack of Egyptian records of the Exodus can be explained by the tendency of pharaohs to document only victories, not defeats, and to erase anything conflicting with their nationalistic ideology. For instance, Thutmose III removed inscriptions of Queen Hatshepsut.

Manetho's anti-Semitic bias is evident in his accounts, as noted by Josephus, who quotes Manetho describing the Jewish ancestors as subduing Egypt before being expelled (Against Apion 1:26). Despite the historical inaccuracies in Manetho's work, he acknowledges the presence of Jews in Egypt. Josephus also references other historians like Chaeremon and Lysimachus, who similarly connect Joseph and Moses's expulsion from Egypt.

Jeroboam's flight to Egypt under Shishak's rule (1 Kings 11:40) and Shishak's subsequent invasion of Judah in 933 BCE, documented by archaeological finds like the Megiddo stele and Karnak inscriptions, show Egypt's interests in controlling trade routes rather than solely supporting the northern kingdom (2 Chronicles 12:1-12).

Pharaoh Necho, son of Psammetichus I, is noted by Herodotus for his naval and canal projects. During Josiah's reign, Necho's involvement in regional politics led to Josiah's death at Megiddo, followed by Necho's actions against Judah, including the imposition of Jehoiakim as a vassal (2 Chronicles 35:20-36:4; 2 Kings 23:29-35). Necho's defeat at Carchemish by the Babylonians soon after marked a shift in regional power (Jeremiah 46:2).

The history of Babylon intersects with Biblical chronology notably from the reign of Nebuchadnezzar II. His father, Nabopolassar, marked the beginning of the Neo-Babylonian Empire, which ended with Nabonidus and his son Belshazzar when Cyrus overthrew Babylon, leading to the destruction of Jerusalem and the 70-year Babylonian exile.

Jeremiah 52:28 records that in the seventh year of Nebuchadnezzar's reign, the first group of Jewish exiles was taken to Babylon. This event is corroborated by a cuneiform inscription from the Babylonian Chronicle (British Museum 21946), which states: "The seventh year: In the month Kislev, the king of Akkad mustered his army and marched to Hattu. He encamped against the city of Judah and on the second day of the month Adar, he captured the city (and) seized (its) king [Jehoiachin]. A king of his own choice [Zedekiah] he appointed in the city (and) taking the vast tribute he brought it into Babylon." (Assyrian and Babylonian Chronicles, by A. K. Grayson, 1975, p. 102; compare 2 Kings 24:1-17; 2 Chronicles 36:5-10). For the last 32 years of Nebuchadnezzar's reign, there are no further significant historical records in the Babylonian Chronicle, except for a fragmentary mention of a campaign against Egypt in his 37th year.

Tablets have been found dated up to the second year of Awil-Marduk (Evil-Merodach, as per 2 Kings 25:27-28). His successor is thought to be Neriglissar, with tablets dated to his fourth year.

Steve, I think it's time for phase 3, don't you?

Astronomical records from the seventh year of Cambyses II, son of Cyrus II, describe two lunar eclipses: "Year 7, Tammuz, night of the 14th, 1 2⁄3 double hours [three hours and twenty minutes] after night came, a lunar eclipse; visible in its full course; it reached over the northern half disc [of the moon]. Tebet, night of the 14th, two and a half double hours [five hours] at night before morning [in the latter part of the night], the disc of the moon was eclipsed; the whole course visible; over the southern and northern part the eclipse reached." (Inschriften von Cambyses, König von Babylon, by J. N. Strassmaier, Leipzig, 1890, No. 400, lines 45-48; Sternkunde und Sterndienst in Babel, by F. X. Kugler, Münster, 1907, Vol. I, pp. 70, 71). These eclipses can be matched to those visible at Babylon on July 16, 523 BCE, and January 10, 522 BCE (Oppolzer's Canon of Eclipses, translated by O. Gingerich, 1962, p. 335). This places the seventh year of Cambyses II beginning in the spring of 523 BCE, meaning his first year was 529 BCE, and his accession year, which was also the last year of Cyrus II in Babylon, was 530 BCE. The last tablet from Cyrus II's reign is dated to the fifth month, 23rd day of his ninth year, establishing his first year as 538 BCE and his accession year as 539 BCE (Babylonian Chronology, 626 BC - AD 75, by R. Parker and W. Dubberstein, 1971, p. 14).

According to the Book of Daniel, Belshazzar was the last ruler of Babylon before its fall to the Persians (Daniel 5:1-30). Previously, the historical existence of Belshazzar was doubted due to lack of external corroboration outside the Bible. However, in the 19th century, archaeologists discovered small cylinders in southern Iraq inscribed with cuneiform text, including a prayer for the health of Nabonidus, king of Babylon's eldest son, Belshazzar. This confirmed that Nabonidus was the primary king, with Belshazzar as his co-regent, and at Daniel 5:16, Belshazzar indeed offered to make Daniel the third ruler in the kingdom.

Josephus described Herod's painful death in vivid detail: "an intolerable itching of the whole skin, continuous pains in the intestines, tumors in the feet as in dropsy, inflammation of the abdomen and gangrene of the privy parts, engendering worms, in addition to asthma, with great difficulty in breathing, and convulsions in all his limbs" (Jewish Wars 1:656).

The dating of Herod's death poses a challenge for Biblical chronology, with some scholars placing it in 5 or 4 BCE based on Josephus' historical accounts. Josephus uses consular dating to pinpoint Herod's appointment as king by Rome to 40 BCE, while another historian, Appian, dates it to 39 BCE. Josephus also notes Herod's capture of Jerusalem in 37 BCE, but he also states this was 27 years after Pompey's capture of the city in 63 BCE (Jewish Antiquities 14:487), implying a date of 36 BCE. This discrepancy leads to different conclusions about the year of Herod's death; if calculated as 37 years after his appointment by Rome and 34 years after capturing Jerusalem, his death would be dated to 2 or 1 BCE (Jewish Antiquities 17:188).

Josephus might have used the accession year method for counting reigns, which was common for Judean kings from the line of David. If Herod was appointed in 40 BCE, his first regnal year would start from Nisan 39 to Nisan 38 BCE. If from the capture of Jerusalem in 37 or 36 BCE, it would begin from Nisan 36 or 35 BCE. Thus, counting back 37 years from his appointment and 34 years from Jerusalem's capture points to a death in 1 BCE.

W. E. Filmer in "The Journal of Theological Studies" (edited by H. Chadwick and H. Sparks, Oxford, 1966, Vol. XVII, p. 284) references Jewish tradition that Herod died on Shevat 2 (January-February). Josephus notes that Herod died shortly after a lunar eclipse and before Passover (Jewish Antiquities 17:164). A partial eclipse occurred on March 11, 4 BCE (Julian calendar March 13), leading some to conclude this was the one Josephus referred to. However, there was also a total eclipse on January 8, 1 BCE (Julian calendar January 10), 18 days before Shevat 2, and another partial eclipse on December 27, 1 BCE (Julian calendar December 29).

Most scholars advocate for a 4 BCE death date based on the March eclipse, but the January 1 BCE eclipse was more significant, lasting 1 hour and 41 minutes, and likely more noticeable (Solar and Lunar Eclipses of the Ancient Near East From 3000 BC to 0 With Maps, by M. Kudlek and E. H. Mickler; Neukirchen-Vluyn, Germany; 1971, Vol. I, p. 156). The December eclipse was less visible at twilight, making it less likely the one described by Josephus.

Josephus states Herod was around 70 at his death, appointed governor of Galilee at 15 (or possibly 25, considering potential textual errors), around 47 BCE, although his historical dating has inconsistencies. The Bible remains the most reliable source for this period's chronology.

Evidence suggests Herod's death in 1 BCE aligns with Luke's account that John the Baptist began his ministry in the 15th year of Tiberius Caesar (Luke 3:1-3), which would be from late 28 CE to late 29 CE after Augustus died on August 17, 14 CE, and Tiberius was named emperor on September 15. John, six months older than Jesus, started his ministry in the spring of 29 CE (Luke 1:35-36). Jesus, born in the fall, would have been about 30 when baptized in the fall of 29 CE (Luke 3:21-23), placing his birth in the fall of 2 BCE. This also matches Daniel's prophecy of "70 weeks" (Daniel 9:24-27), where from 455 BCE (Artaxerxes' order to rebuild Jerusalem's wall) to 29 CE (Jesus' baptism) is 483 years or 69 weeks.

Skeptics often challenge the Biblical chronology concerning Jesus' birth, citing the misconception that there was only one census under Publius Sulpicius Quirinius when he was governor of Syria around 6 CE. This census famously led to a rebellion by Judas the Galilean and the Zealots (Acts 5:37). However, this was actually the second census. Inscriptions found in and around Antioch reveal that several years earlier, Quirinius had served as the emperor's legate in Syria. As noted in the "Dictionnaire du Nouveau Testament" in Crampon's French Bible (1939 ed., p. 360): "The scholarly researches of Zumpt (Commentat. epigraph., II, 86-104; De Syria romana provincia, 97-98) and of Mommsen (Res gestae divi Augusti) place beyond doubt that Quirinius was twice governor of Syria."

Further corroborating this, an inscription known as the Lapis Tiburtinus, discovered in 1764, aligns with these findings. All of this evidence firmly establishes the reliability of the Bible's historical accuracy and underscores the significance of Biblical chronology.

DLH · Mar 31, 2025

steve_bank said:
Leaner how do you possibly know when texts were actually written and how much of it is fiction?

Continued from post # 27

Many people don't realize how the timeline of events in the Bible can be, not only calculated but also accurately compared to secular history - as potentially erroneous as that can be, but also through comparisons with extremely reliable astronomical charts of the past. Just from Genesis 5:1-29; 7:6 we can see a period of 1, 656 years, from the creation of Adam to the flood, by adding the ages and births of the people mentioned in those verses.

For example - From Adam's creation to the birth of Seth was 130 years; from then to the birth of Enosh was 105 years; from then to the birth of Kenan was 90 years; from then to the birth of Mahalalel was 70 years: from then to the birth of Jared was 65 years; from then to the birth of Enoch was 162 years; from then to the birth of Methuselah was 65 years; from then to the birth of Lamech was 187 years; from then to the birth of Noah was 182 years; and from then to the Flood was 600 years. A total of 1,656 years.

The Bible's meticulous references to secular historical dates, such as Luke's writings, allows a student of the Bible to pick a date agreed upon by secular history, such as 29 C.E. or 539 B.C.E. and count from Adam to the present day. I will take it as far as the apostle John's death.

BCE

4026, Adam created
3404, Enoch born
3096, Adam dies
2970, Noah born
2470, Japheth born
2468, Shem born
2370, Flood begins
2369, post-Flood history begins
1943, Abraham crosses Euphrates
1932, Ishmael born
1919, covenant of circumcision made with Abraham
1918, Isaac born
1913, Isaac weaned
1893, Abraham attempts to sacrifice Isaac
1881, Sarah dies
1878, Isaac weds Rebekah
1858, Esau and Jacob born
1843, Abraham dies
1795, Ishmael dies
1781, Jacob flees to Mesopotamia
1774, Jacob weds Leah and Rachel
1761, Jacob returns to Canaan
1750, Joseph sold into slavery
1738, Isaac dies
1728, Jacob moves to Egypt
1711, Jacob dies
1657, Joseph dies
c. 1613, Job tried
1513, Exodus from Egypt / Genesis written
1512, Aaronic priesthood installed / Exodus, Leviticus written / tabernacle completed
c. 1473, Job written
1473, Numbers, Deuteronomy written / Moses dies / Israelites enter Promised Land / spies enter Jericho / Jericho falls
c. 1467, conquest of Canaan completed
c. 1450, Joshua written
1424, first Jubilee celebrated
1173, Jephthah becomes judge
1117, Saul begins reign
c. 1100, Judges written
c. 1090, Ruth written
c. 1078, 1 Samuel written
1077, David becomes king of Judah at Hebron / Ish-bosheth becomes king of Israel
1075, Ish-bosheth assassinated
1070, David becomes king over all Israel
(Sometime after 1070), David brings ark of the covenant to Jerusalem
c. 1040, 2 Samuel written
1037, Solomon begins reign
1034, Solomon begins temple
1027, Solomon completes temple
1026, Solomon dedicates temple
c. 1020, Song of Solomon written
(Sometime before 1000) Ecclesiastes written
998, Solomon dies
997, Rehoboam becomes king / Israel divided into two kingdoms / Jeroboam becomes king of Israel
993, Pharaoh Shishak invades Judah
980, Abijah (Abijam) becomes king of Judah
978, Asa becomes king of Judah
977, Asa's first regnal year
c. 976, Nadab becomes king of Israel
c. 975, Baasha becomes king of Israel
967, Asa defeats Ethiopians
962, "thirty-sixth year" of Asa's reign
c. 952, Elah becomes king of Israel
c. 951, Zimri becomes king of Israel for seven days / Omri becomes king of Israel
c. 940, Ahab becomes king of Israel
936, Jehoshaphat becomes king of Judah
c. 920, Ahab dies
c. 919, Ahaziah (son of Ahab) becomes king of Israel
c. 917, Jehoram (son of Ahab) becomes king of Israel
913, Jehoram (son of Jehoshaphat) reigns with father
911, Jehoshaphat dies
c. 906, Ahaziah (grandson of Jehoshaphat) becomes king of Judah
c. 905, Jehu anointed as king of Israel / Jehoram (son of Ahab) killed by Jehu / Ahaziah (grandson of Jehoshaphat) killed by Jehu / Athaliah usurps throne of Judah
c. 904, Jehu's first year as king of Israel
898, Jehoash (son of Ahaziah) becomes king of Judah
c. 877, Jehu dies
876, Jehoahaz becomes king of Israel
860, Jehoahaz dies
c. 859, Jehoash (son of Jehoahaz) becomes king of Israel
859, Jehoash (son of Ahaziah) assassinated
858, Amaziah becomes king of Judah
c. 844, Jeroboam II becomes king of Israel / Jonah written
829, Uzziah becomes king of Judah
c. 820, Joel written
c. 818, Uzziah (Azariah) 'becomes king'
c. 804, Amos written / Hosea begins prophesying / Jeroboam II begins last regnal year
c. 803, Jeroboam II dies
c. 792, Zechariah becomes king of Israel
791, Shallum becomes king of Israel for one month
c. 790, Menahem's first regnal year as king of Israel
c. 780, Pekahiah becomes king of Israel
c. 778, Isaiah begins prophesying / Pekah becomes king of Israel
777, Jotham becomes king of Judah / Micah begins prophesying
762, Ahaz becomes king of Judah
c. 758, Hoshea becomes king of Israel
753, Rome founded (tradition)
746, Ahaz dies
745, Hezekiah's first regnal year as king of Judah
(sometime after 745) Hosea written
742, Samaria besieged
740, ten-tribe kingdom of Israel falls
732, Sennacherib attacks Judah
(sometime after 732) Isaiah stops prophesying / Isaiah written
(sometime before 717) Micah written
c. 717, Proverbs compiled
717, Hezekiah dies
716, Manasseh becomes king of Judah
661, Amon becomes king of Judah
659, Josiah becomes king of Judah
(sometime before 648) Zephaniah written
647, Jeremiah commissioned
645, Nabopolassar becomes king of Babylon
(sometime before 632) Nahum written
632, Nineveh falls
629, Josiah killed in battle / Pharaoh Necho(h) takes Carchemish / reestablishment of Assyrian Empire fails
c. 628, Habakkuk written
628, Jehoahaz becomes king of Judah / Jehoiakim becomes king of Judah
625, battle of Carchemish / Jeremiah has Baruch write prophecies
624, Baruch reads scroll in temple courtyard / Nebuchadnezzar becomes king of Babylon
620, Jehoiakim vassal to Nebuchadnezzar
618, Nebuchadnezzar besieges Jerusalem / Jehoiakim dies
618-617, Jehoiachin rules, is exiled
617, Zedekiah becomes king of Judah / first exiles from Jerusalem
614, Zedekiah and Seraiah to Babylon
613, Ezekiel commissioned
612, Ezekiel's vision of false worship in temple
611, Ezekiel confirms Jerusalem to fall
609, final siege of Jerusalem begins
607, Jerusalem falls / Jerusalem destroyed / temple burned / Lamentations written / last exiles from Jerusalem
c. 607, Obadiah written
(sometime after 607) Nebuchadnezzar takes Tyre
c. 606, Nebuchadnezzar's dream of image
602, Nebuchadnezzar exiles more Jews, conquers Moab and Ammon, and invades Egypt
593, Ezekiel's vision of future temple
c. 591, Ezekiel written
580, 1 and 2 Kings written / Jeremiah written
560, Cyrus the Great becomes king of Persia
556, Nabonidus becomes king of Babylon
553, Belshazzar coregent with Nabonidus / Daniel receives vision
551, Daniel receives vision
550, Cyrus unites Medes and Persians
540, Meroë becomes capital of Ethiopia
539, Cyrus takes Babylon, becomes its king / Daniel receives prophecy of 70 weeks
538-537, Cyrus decrees release of Jews
537, Jews repatriated, altar erected
536, Daniel receives prophecy of kings of north and south / temple foundation laid
c. 536, Daniel written
530, Cyrus the Great dies
529, Cambyses II begins rule
525, Cambyses II subjugates Egypt
522, Cambyses II dies / Smerdis (Bardiya or Gaumata) usurps Persian throne / ban on temple construction / Darius I (Hystaspis) ascends throne / Darius I (Hystaspis) defeats Nebuchadnezzar III
521-520, Darius I's first regnal year as king of Babylon
520, Haggai and Zechariah prophesy / temple building resumed / Haggai written
518, Zechariah written
515, temple completed
496, Xerxes I coregent with father Darius I (Hystaspis)
490, battle of Marathon, Greece
486, Darius I (Hystaspis) dies
484, Ahasuerus (Xerxes I) decrees extermination of Jews
480, Xerxes I invades Greece / battle at Thermopylae
479, Greeks defeat Persians at Plataea
c. 475, Esther written
475, Artaxerxes Longimanus ascends throne
474-473, Artaxerxes Longimanus' first regnal year
468, Ezra travels to Jerusalem
c. 460, 1 and 2 Chronicles written / Ezra written / Psalms completed
455, Artaxerxes Longimanus issues command to rebuild Jerusalem and walls / Jerusalem's walls completed
c. 443, Nehemiah returns to Persia
(sometime after 443) Malachi written / Nehemiah written
424, Artaxerxes Longimanus' reign ends
423-422, Darius II's first regnal year
404, Artaxerxes II (Mnemon) becomes king
358, Artaxerxes III (Ochus) becomes king
336, Alexander the Great ascends throne
334, Alexander invades Persia / Alexander defeats Persians at Granicus
333, Alexander defeats Persians at Issus
332, Alexander overthrows Tyre / Alexander enters Jerusalem / Alexander conquers Egypt
331, Alexander defeats Persians at Gaugamela / Persian Empire falls / Alexander enters Babylon
323, Alexander the Great dies
301, Alexander's generals in power
168, Jerusalem's temple desecrated
167, Maccabean revolt begins / Macedonia conquered by Rome
165, Jerusalem's temple rededicated
150, Septuagint completed
146, Macedonia a Roman province
63, Jerusalem falls to Rome
46, Julius Caesar begins rule
44, Julius Caesar assassinated
c. 39, Herod the Great becomes king of Judaea
31, Octavius begins rule / Octavius defeats Mark Antony
30, Octavius conquers Egypt / Rome a world power
27, Octavius becomes emperor, proclaimed "Augustus"
c. 17, Herod begins to rebuild temple
3, Gabriel foretells birth of John the Baptizer
2, Jesus born
1, Herod the Great dies

14, Tiberius becomes emperor
28-29, Tiberius' fifteenth year
29, spring, John the Baptizer begins ministry / fall, Jesus baptized, becomes Christ (Messiah)
30, Jesus cleanses temple
31, Jesus gives Sermon on Mount
32, Jesus attends Festival of Booths / John the Baptizer beheaded
33, Nisan 7, Jesus travels from Jericho to Bethany / Nisan 8, Jesus arrives in Bethany / Nisan 9, meal at home of Simon; entry into Jerusalem / Nisan 10, Jesus cleanses temple, teaches; Jehovah speaks / Nisan 11, Jesus' ministry in and around Jerusalem / Nisan 12, Jesus in retirement; Judas offers to betray / Nisan 13, Passover preparations / Nisan 15, Pilate permits guards for Jesus' grave / Nisan 16, Jesus resurrected / Sivan 6, Christian congregation founded
c. 34, Saul of Tarsus converted
c. 36, Paul first visits Jerusalem as Christian / Paul taken to Caesarea, sent to Tarsus
36, Cornelius converted
37, Caligula (Gaius Caesar) becomes emperor
c. 41, Matthew written / Paul's vision
41, Caligula assassinated / Claudius becomes emperor / Herod Agrippa I becomes king of all Palestine
43, Claudius begins conquest of southern Britain
c. 44, Agabus prophesies famine / James (son of Zebedee) martyred / Peter imprisoned, miraculously released
44, Herod Agrippa I dies
c. 46, foretold famine strikes; Paul brings relief to Jerusalem
c. 47-48, Paul's first missionary tour
c. 47, Paul, Barnabas, and John Mark visit Salamis
c. 49, circumcision issue at Antioch / conference in Jerusalem / territory assignments / Paul begins second missionary tour
c. 49-52, Paul's second missionary tour
c. 49-50, Claudius expels Jews from Rome
c. 50, Luke joins Paul at Troas / Paul's vision of Macedonian man / Paul visits Philippi / Philippian congregation founded / Thessalonian congregation founded / Thessalonians written
c. 50-52, Paul visits Corinth / Galatians written
c. 51, 2 Thessalonians written
c. 52-56, Paul's third missionary tour
c. 52-55, Paul visits Ephesus
54, Nero begins rule
c. 55, 1 Corinthians written / Titus sent to Corinth / 2 Corinthians written
c. 56, Romans written / Paul resurrects Eutychus in Troas / Paul and Luke stay with Philip in Caesarea / Paul arrested in Jerusalem
c. 56-58, Paul in custody in Caesarea / Luke written
c. 58, Festus succeeds Felix
58, Herod Agrippa II hears Paul
c. 59, Paul stops at Syracuse
c. 59-61, Paul's first imprisonment in Rome
c. 60-61, Colossians written / Ephesians written / Philemon written / Philippians written
c. 60-65, Mark written
c. 61, Acts written / Hebrews written
c. 61-64, 1 Timothy written / Titus left in Crete / Titus written
(sometime before 62) James written
c. 62, James (brother of Jesus) dies
c. 62-64, 1 Peter written
c. 64, 2 Peter written
64, Rome burns
c. 65, Paul's second imprisonment in Rome and death / 2 Timothy written / Titus leaves for Dalmatia / Jude written
66, Jews seize Masada / Jews revolt against Rome / Cestius Gallus attacks Jerusalem, withdraws
67, Vespasian begins to quell Jewish uprising
68, Galba becomes emperor
70, Jerusalem destroyed by Romans / temple burned
79, Titus becomes emperor
81, Domitian becomes emperor
96, Nerva becomes emperor / Revelation written
96-98, John released from exile
c. 98, John written / 1 John written / 2 John written / 3 John written
98, Trajan becomes emperor
c. 100, John dies

DLH · Mar 31, 2025

Politesse said:
The idea was to make the stories themselves as widely remembered as possible, but deep enough that only the wise or blessed would really understand them.

Who were the wise or blessed, oh wise one?

DLH · Mar 31, 2025

James Brown said:
If we can't trust the Bible about where we came from, why would we trust it on where we're going?

What makes you think we can't trust the Bible about where we came from?

DLH · Mar 31, 2025

SLD said:
Matthew 16:28 - Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. (Also see Mark 9:1; Luke 9:27)

It’s an explicit prediction of the coming of Jesus. The logical legerdemain of the op in trying to overcome the obvious is bizarre. It’s worrying about Greek definitions of words when these people spoke Aramaic.

Who gives a shit?

I explained that in the OP. The prediction came true days later. Those who don't give a shit can fuck off. Why would they bother?

SLD said:
Let’s just take it at face value.

I don't think you can even do that, but again, why would you want to? I don't agree with Islam, Buddhism, Confucianism, etc. but I don't feel the need to. They don't have to think like me. I don't have to think like them.

SLD said:
It didn’t fucking happen because it’s a fucking myth. It’s one of many many predictions I. The Bible that are utter nonsense. Just like the numerical predictions in the Book of Daniel’s that I mentioned in another post. You basically have to rewrite history to try and fit them into the narrative you want. And even then they don’t make accurate predictions. Why? Because they’re just bullshit myths.

The real mystery is why so many people go to such absurd lengths to try and interpret these things. Give it up!

You can't say that they are anything if you don't know them or if you know some corrupt interpretation, like yours. You're only doing what it is you seem to think they are doing only coming to a different conclusion. If the believer or unbeliever doesn't know their ass from a hole in the ground they got no say. Don't listen to them.

It's all ideological obsession.

It's like arguing stupid ass politics.

pood · Mar 31, 2025

DLH said:
James Brown said:

If we can't trust the Bible about where we came from, why would we trust it on where we're going?

Click to expand...

What makes you think we can't trust the Bible about where we came from?

Because it is wildly contradictory to evidence-based science in every conceivable respect — physics, chemistry, geology, geography, cosmology, etc. So, the question is, why would YOU think we CAN trust it? Because it makes you feel good?

DLH · Mar 31, 2025

DBT said:
We are given a clear timeframe for when the described event was supposed to happen - within the lifetime of those present at the time, that that generation shall not pass before witnessing the return of Jesus in power and glory, for all the tribes on earth to see and mourn, to gather the elect, to judge each man according to their deeds.

Obviously, none of this occurred within the given timeframe.

How many times did Jesus say no one knows the time and when did that change? No one knows the time now, except God. So, your conclusion is based upon a faulty premise. From the start. I don't even have to explain it like I did in the OP.

DLH · Mar 31, 2025

pood said:
DLH said:

What makes you think we can't trust the Bible about where we came from?

Click to expand...

Because it is wildly contradictory to evidence-based science in every conceivable respect — physics, chemistry, geology, geography, cosmology, etc. So, the question is, why would YOU think we CAN trust it? Because it makes you feel good?

Your problem, and the problem with your sock, is that you don't understand what I'm saying because you don't think you need to listen to me except for where you think you disagree with me because you do the same to an entire class of people you think I belong to.

I don't think you should trust the Bible in fact I've said that multiple times. I even post, perhaps ironically, where you should trust the Bible and do what it says when it itself says not to trust it.

The funniest thing about skeptics is their adherence to tradition religiously while unfairly criticizing their opposition for doing the same. They're the same thing! And what do they know? Almost nothing. So, what value is there in whatever value they insist upon in physics, chemistry, geology, geography, cosmology etc. It's all the same bullshit. They just think like everyone else who ever lived, that their age of bullshit is better than the previous ones without the foresight that theirs is just another in a continuing cycle of pure bullshit.

So arrogantly obtuse.

DLH · Mar 31, 2025

Politesse said:
Kicked out of the Witnesses for cussing too much while on mission?

Had a heat stroke while playing in the sand or got kicked out of the propaganda machine for having an original thought?

DLH · Mar 31, 2025

Learner said:
Um.. ok it hasn't happened. But folks ain't there supposed to be a sequence of events that happens before the return of Christ? For example...The Two Witnesses (some believe they're already here) ...the anti-christ is revealed before Jesus appears and so on.

Did anyone not notice the line where it says "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached to the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come...?"

Sounds to me this second coming is to be MUCH further in the future from what you (plural) erroneously think.

It has happened and nowhere in the Bible does it teach a second coming.

Israel P. Warren, D.D., wrote in his work The Parousia, Portland, Maine (1879), pp. 12-15: “We often speak of the ‘second advent,’ the ‘second coming,’ etc., but the Scriptures never speak of a ‘second Parousia.’ Whatever was to be its nature, it was something peculiar, having never occurred before, and being never to occur again. It was to be a presence differing from and superior to all other manifestations of himself to men, so that its designation should properly stand by itself, without any qualifying epithet other than the article,—THE PRESENCE.

“From this view of the word it is evident, I think, that neither the English word ‘coming’ nor the Latin ‘advent’ is the best representative of the original. They do not conform to its etymology; they do not correspond to the idea of the verb from which it is derived; nor could they appropriately be substituted for the more exact word, ‘presence,’ in the cases where the translators used the latter. Nor is the radical [root] idea of them the same. ‘Coming’ and ‘advent’ give most prominently the conception of an approach to us, motion toward us; ‘parousia’ that of being with us, without reference to how it began. The force of the former ends with the arrival; that of the latter begins with it. Those are words of motion; this of rest. The space of time covered by the action of the former is limited, it may be momentary; that of the latter unlimited . . . .

“Had our translators done with this technical word ‘parousia’ as they did with ‘baptisma,’—transferring it unchanged,—or if translated using its exact etymological equivalent, presence, and had it been well understood, as it then would have been, that there is no such thing as a ‘second Presence,’ I believe that the entire doctrine would have been different from what it now is. The phrases, ‘second advent,’ and ‘second coming,’ would never have been heard of. The church would have been taught to speak of THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD, as that from which its hopes were to be realized, whether in the near future or at the remotest period,—that under which the world was to be made new, a resurrection both spiritual and corporeal should be attained, and justice and everlasting awards administered.”

Politesse · Mar 31, 2025

DLH said:
Politesse said:

The idea was to make the stories themselves as widely remembered as possible, but deep enough that only the wise or blessed would really understand them.

Click to expand...

Who were the wise or blessed, oh wise one?

Those capable of having thoughts. I don't know why you are so salty about me... agreeing with you, more or less. Minus the anti-semitism of course, but other than that, isn't what I wrote more or less a restatement of what you claimed? Or is the supercessionism the whole point for you, despite your frequent claim to be non-religious?

pood · Mar 31, 2025

DLH said:
pood said:

DLH said:

What makes you think we can't trust the Bible about where we came from?

Click to expand...

Because it is wildly contradictory to evidence-based science in every conceivable respect — physics, chemistry, geology, geography, cosmology, etc. So, the question is, why would YOU think we CAN trust it? Because it makes you feel good?

Click to expand...

I don't think you should trust the Bible in fact I've said that multiple times.

Then why did you ask, “What makes you think we can’t trust the bible about where we came from?”

DLH said:
So arrogantly obtuse.

Mirror.

Politesse · Mar 31, 2025

DLH said:
Israel P. Warren, D.D., wrote in his work The Parousia, Portland, Maine (1879), pp. 12-15: “We often speak of the ‘second advent,’ the ‘second coming,’ etc., but the Scriptures never speak of a ‘second Parousia.’ Whatever was to be its nature, it was something peculiar, having never occurred before, and being never to occur again. It was to be a presence differing from and superior to all other manifestations of himself to men, so that its designation should properly stand by itself, without any qualifying epithet other than the article,—THE PRESENCE.

“From this view of the word it is evident, I think, that neither the English word ‘coming’ nor the Latin ‘advent’ is the best representative of the original. They do not conform to its etymology; they do not correspond to the idea of the verb from which it is derived; nor could they appropriately be substituted for the more exact word, ‘presence,’ in the cases where the translators used the latter. Nor is the radical [root] idea of them the same. ‘Coming’ and ‘advent’ give most prominently the conception of an approach to us, motion toward us; ‘parousia’ that of being with us, without reference to how it began. The force of the former ends with the arrival; that of the latter begins with it. Those are words of motion; this of rest. The space of time covered by the action of the former is limited, it may be momentary; that of the latter unlimited . . . .

I both agree and disagree with this sentiment. "Second" is certainly indefensible, it is not so much as hinted at in the Greek. Every English speaker knows the meaning of the prefix par-/para-, as we use it too, in so many borrow words of Greek origin that they are too many to list: Paragraph, parapelegic, parantheses, parabola, paranormal. It's meaning is complex, but it does not mean "second", it is a spatial indexical, not a temporal indexical. Parousia can only be describing where or how, in other words, not when or in what sequence.

As for parousia as a whole word, though, we frequently see it in both the Christian Scriptures and in other Classical Greek texts in its colloquial meaning of an "arrival" or "announced presence". It's literal meaning is closer to "to be by" or "to be about", this is true, but words evolve. Anyone who encountered it in the Hellenic world during the Roman period would know exactly what was meant by it, because the same word, parousia, was used to describe the arrival of Imperial governors, commanders, and emissaries, as well as (non-coincidentally) the arrival of a god or goddess in the context of the theurgic rituals, which were likewise seen by those at the time as a sort of diplomatic visit. It was an everyday word in frequent use, and would have caused no confusion for the original audiece. Reverend Warren was a very skilled amateur linguist, genealogist, and a talented writer in his own right. But not a historian, and had limited access to any of the source texts that would have helped him understand the ancient context of any given phrase.

By analogy, the word conference in English literally means "an occasion for conferring" if you break it down, and any dictionary will say as much. Taken literally, it could be applied to nearly any sort of conversation or meeting. But if someone says I'm attending a conference you know from syntactic context that they are going to a specific type of public meeting, not just chatting with a friend. Likewise the meaning of a styling like "The parousia of our Lord" was not ambiguous in the anceint context - this was an arrival from another realm or foreign court. Royal or godly depending on your theology, but either way, no mere "being in place already".

DLH said:
“Had our translators done with this technical word ‘parousia’ as they did with ‘baptisma,’—transferring it unchanged,—or if translated using its exact etymological equivalent, presence, and had it been well understood, as it then would have been, that there is no such thing as a ‘second Presence,’ I believe that the entire doctrine would have been different from what it now is. The phrases, ‘second advent,’ and ‘second coming,’ would never have been heard of. The church would have been taught to speak of THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD, as that from which its hopes were to be realized, whether in the near future or at the remotest period,—that under which the world was to be made new, a resurrection both spiritual and corporeal should be attained, and justice and everlasting awards administered.”

This is very true. Greek just doesn't fit in English sometimes! Though there are many critical concepts in the Bible to which the same applies. An evangelist is not a mere advertiser, a martyr is not just someone who dies for a cause, and never mind what a revelation is. Most philosophical language is poorly translated, in part because Greek is a far more inflected language which needs an ungainly number of helper words to make sense in English, and in part because the writers and translators of the New Testament used a lot of philosophical terminology that to them already existed, but which goes right past modern readers of translations. Ousia/eimi is a fine case in point. People fought and died over the distinction between hypostasis and ousia in the early days of the church, but they are both routinely translated as "being" in English, as though it were a settled matter that these words were meant as undistinguishable synonyms...

DLH · Mar 31, 2025

pood said:
Then why did you ask, “What makes you think we can’t trust the bible about where we came from?”

Uh, because I wanted to know what makes you think we can't trust the bible about where we came from?

pood · Mar 31, 2025

DLH said:
pood said:

Then why did you ask, “What makes you think we can’t trust the bible about where we came from?”

Click to expand...

Uh, because I wanted to know what makes you think we can't trust the bible about where we came from?

And I told you. So what’s the problem?

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