Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Derec]

I didn't know that there are degrees of impossibility.

As they say, "the merely difficult we will do right away, the impossible will take a little longer".
How much longer? Depends on the degree of impossibility of course.

 

[TomC]

I didn't know that there are degrees of impossibility.

Dang, that's a breathtakingly stupid response to Derec's post.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

I didn't know that there are degrees of impossibility.

Dang, that's a breathtakingly stupid response to Derec's post.
Tom

Your response reflects more on you than the comment.

 

[scombrid]

I listened to This American Life while I was driving down here yesterday. The Israelis shooting kids in the head and left side of the chest is pretty monstrous. White orthopedic surgeon that has worked in numerous conflict zones saw head shots and center of mass shots in toddlers to tweens. So have dozens of other medical aid workers. Shots like that aren't accidents. Israelis are acting like they are putting down dogs. That probably makes a few folks around here happy though.

 

[ZiprHead]

I listened to This American Life while I was driving down here yesterday. The Israelis shooting kids in the head and left side of the chest is pretty monstrous. White orthopedic surgeon that has worked in numerous conflict zones saw head shots and center of mass shots in toddlers to tweens. So have dozens of other medical aid workers. Shots like that aren't accidents. Israelis are acting like they are putting down dogs. That probably makes a few folks around here happy though.

That's how the assassin in the movie Collateral did it.

 

[Tigers!]

Hamas wants the Palestinian people to be free to live and govern themselves in Palestine, until the Zionist entity and all Zionists themselves do not exist, which they believe can only happen through armed struggle against the 'Zionist entity', aka Israel.

FIFY

Since “all Zionists” includes Zionists in other parts of the world, I doubt you improved the statement.

Since the Zionist entity is only in the ME my changes are quite alright. You even stated who is the Zionist entity in your original comment.
Though nice attempt to dodge the issue that Hamas is only interested in Hamas. Hamas does not want the Gazans to be free and govern themselves in Gaza. It cares nothing for the Gazans except as grist to their mill.

 

[laughing dog]

Hamas wants the Palestinian people to be free to live and govern themselves in Palestine, until the Zionist entity and all Zionists themselves do not exist, which they believe can only happen through armed struggle against the 'Zionist entity', aka Israel.

FIFY

Since “all Zionists” includes Zionists in other parts of the world, I doubt you improved the statement.

Since the Zionist entity is only in the ME my changes are quite alright.

While the Zionist entity is only in the ME, all Zionists are not. Please share any actual evidence that Hamas desires to eliminate Zionists in other parts of the world. Without such evidence, there is no reason to accept your opinion as valid.

You even stated who is the Zionist entity in your original comment.

No, I did not. But that has nothing whatsoever to do with the validity of your opinion.

Though nice attempt to dodge the issue that Hamas is only interested in Hamas. Hamas does not want the Gazans to be free and govern themselves in Gaza. It cares nothing for the Gazans except as grist to their mill.

I was trying to avoid the repetition of the conflation of inferences with statements of fact. I seriously doubt you have any direct knowledge about Hamas wants or believes. I know I don't. From their policies and actions, I think I understand what drives your kneejerk blather, but you conflate your opinions with fact. And I realize that such rhetoric allows one to justify one's views about Hamas.

However, Hamas is mostly comprised of Gazans, and since Hamas members clearly takes steps to survive, it is bleeding obvious that Hamas cares about Gazans. They may not value Gazans who are not members of Hamas as much as those who are members of Hamas, but that does not require not caring at all.

 

[Tigers!]

Hamas wants the Palestinian people to be free to live and govern themselves in Palestine, until the Zionist entity and all Zionists themselves do not exist, which they believe can only happen through armed struggle against the 'Zionist entity', aka Israel.

FIFY

Since “all Zionists” includes Zionists in other parts of the world, I doubt you improved the statement.

Since the Zionist entity is only in the ME my changes are quite alright.

While the Zionist entity is only in the ME, all Zionists are not. Sorry that actual reason interferes with your viers.

You even stated who is the Zionist entity in your original comment.

No, I did not.

Apologies it was Arctish.

Though nice attempt to dodge the issue that Hamas is only interested in Hamas. Hamas does not want the Gazans to be free and govern themselves in Gaza. It cares nothing for the Gazans except as grist to their mill.

I was trying to avoid the very bigoted nonsense like that your statement above. I seriously doubt you have any direct knowledge about Hamas wants or believes. I know I don't.

We can make some reasonable inferences.
We can only go by their words and actions. Their words are that they want to eliminate Israel and any Jews in the area. Their actions show they care not for Gazans as a whole.

 

[Arctish]

Loren said the reason the greenhouse project came to naught was because Hamas doesn't like prosperity. I am asking him to post his argument, not just a snarky line of empty rhetoric.

The behavior of Hamas et al is the argument.

No, the behavior of Loren Pechtel is the argument.

Loren posts bullshit. He also frequently posts propaganda, lies, and the tenets of his Faith, but bullshit is his stock in trade. I am asking him to support his claims. Your jumping in to support the bullshit doesn't make it not-bullshit, it just means that you are helping spread the bullshit around.

Here is how this particular instance of bullshiting developed. Harry Bosch, laughing dog, TomC, and I were discussing recent protests against Hamas by Gazans and the prospects for peace. I suggested posters read up on the history of the greenhouse project and how it came to naught, and encouraged people to wonder why the story that gets circulated is anti-Psemitic horseshit, not the facts of the matter. Loren responded with the extraordinary claim that the reason the greenhouse project failed is because Hamas doesn't like prosperity, without providing a single shred of evidence his claims were true and despite previous links to reliable sources documenting the closure of the Karni Crossing and subsequent loss of the greenhouse crops before the election that brought Hamas to power.

Granted, the links were in a post that was in response to one of yours, but Loren has been following this discussion pretty closely, he and I have talked about the greenhouses before, and he knows Hamas ran on a platform of economic development and was actually building infrastructure in Gaza, so I have every reason to believe he knows he's posting bullshit.

I also have every reason to believe he does it so that people won't look into the history and reach their own conclusions based on the facts they find.

If you want to support Loren's claims that Hamas doesn't like prosperity, you'll have to do better than merely assert it the way you're doing here:

The terrorist factions like Hamas, Islamic Jihad et al do not care whether or not Palestinian civilians live or die, much less about their prosperity.
In fact, they see dead Palestinians as a PR cudgel for the useful idiots in the West, especially the pampered college students in places like Columbia.
That's why they shoot rockets from the tent city in Al Mawasi. For example, see this rocket launcher being struck with precision.
View attachment 50354
From here. Forget blatant MEE editorializing, since the strike clearly didn't hit a tent but the rocket launcher, which is visible in the first few frames.
Note that the tent dwellers must have been warned of the strike, as they had ample time to position a couple of cameras perfectly.
Note also the secondary explosion, indicating that there was at least one rocket at the site being struck.

That's also why Hamas leader Mohammed Deif hid out in Al Mawasi surrounded by a large cache of weapons.

Note the large secondary explosion.

Those are not the actions of a group that cares about the lives of the people it ostensibly fights for, much less their prosperity.

If we accept your argument as valid, we must therefore conclude that Zionist settlers who store weapons in their homes in the settlements and instance of the IDF storing weapons in areas where civilian housing exists indicates Zionist and Israelis soldiers don't care about the lives of Jews.

If, OTOH, we accept weapon storage in or near homes as normal when a nation or community is threatened with extreme violence, we can only accept your criticism of Hamas for doing it as valid if we use blatant double standards.

Hamas wants the Palestinian people to be free to live and govern themselves in Palestine,

Wrong. Hamas doesn't want Palestinian people to be free. It wants to subjugate them. Gaza governed by Hamas has been an islamofascist theocracy.
Just one example:
Hamas bans women on motorcycles in Gaza Strip
Funny to see you feminists defend these creeps.

which they believe can only happen through armed struggle against the 'Zionist entity', aka Israel.

In other words, they want to destroy Israel and extend their oppressive rule over Israeli territory as well.
For that purpose, they keep attacking Israel even though that is detrimental to prosperity, and in fact the very lives, of what is ostensibly their people. Thanks for making my point for me.

I never said I support Hamas, or that I want Hamas to prevail. Quite the opposite in fact.

I think the biggest obstacle to our discussions is your insistence on categorizing everyone as either pro-Israel or pro-Hamas, and refusal to acknowledge that there are other positions one can take and other political parties one can support.

Being pro-peace and pro-human rights means being at odds with racist religious bigots of every stripe. You never seem to get that no matter how many times it's explained to you.

There is nothing in their charter, position papers, or official statements that would lead one to believe they don't like prosperity or would work to thwart it in Gaza.

I'd rather go by their actions. And their actions have been detrimental to peace and prosperity.

If you think you can support Loren's claims, go right ahead and post the links to credible sources that provide the information his posts are lacking.

It would be difficult to find support you would accept. Unless they act like cartoon villains and put "we hate prosperity" in their charter, you will ignore that their actions have been antithetical to prosperity for the Palestinian people.

If disavowing terrorism and being committed to diplomatic solutions had brought prosperity to Palestinians living in the West Bank under the PA, you might have a point.

Are you laboring under the misapprehension that there is no terrorism, no Hamas, no Islamic Jihad, in the West Bank?
PA does not have effective control over all areas it has de jure control over, especially the so-called "refugee camps" like Jenin Camp. Jenin is really Little Gaza at this point.

Note that the areas that are more peaceful and where PA has effective control over are also more prosperous than the ones that are controlled by groups such as "Lion's Den" or "Jenin Brigades". Just look at this new mall in Ramallah.

But since they, too, cannot prosper under current economic and social conditions, and in fact keep losing homes, farmland, orchards, and other resources to Israelis building and expanding settlements (and some just being destructive assholes),

Note that these things increased since the 10/7 attacks. But even before 10/7, there have been attacks by Palestinian terror groups from West Bank cells.

and since the lack of prosperity and economic sabotage in Gaza predates the election that brought Hamas to power, the argument that Gazans would prosper if they simply sidelined Hamas and stopped fighting is absurd.

It is not absurd. I have said this before, but here goes again.
Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza, removing all settlements and soldiers.

Israel did not withdraw the soldiers from the walls and barriers that kept the Palestinians imprisoned.

You know the Gazans weren't free to come and go as they pleased, or to export their products or import goods for sale without outside interference, or to develop their natural gas resources, or to generate electricity at their power plant, or to drive or fly wherever they wanted to go. Heck, they weren't allowed to pick crops from their own lands or fish in their Territorial waters without the risk of being shot.

It's like you think inmates at the Louisiana State Penitentiary are "free" anytime the guards are not walking the floors even though you know the guards are still manning the walls and points of ingress/egress, and controlling how much food, water, and basic necessities the inmates receive.

It's ridiculous.

That was a chance for Gaza to show they can live in peace with their neighbor. It could have been a blueprint for eventual statehood.

And here we are, back at considering how and why the greenhouse project and other investments in Gaza's economy ultimately failed.

Yes, it could have been a success story. It could have been a time of disengagement from hostilities and engagement in mutually beneficial projects. It could have been a time of economic growth and prosperity for both Palestinians and Israelis. That didn't happen. And you'll never get a clue why unless you look into the history and follow the facts, not just buy into Loren's bullshit and spout off nonsense in defense of a fairy tale you like to believe is true.

 

[Arctish]

Hamas wants the Palestinian people to be free to live and govern themselves in Palestine, until the Zionist entity and all Zionists themselves do not exist, which they believe can only happen through armed struggle against the 'Zionist entity', aka Israel.

FIFY

Since “all Zionists” includes Zionists in other parts of the world, I doubt you improved the statement.

Since the Zionist entity is only in the ME my changes are quite alright. You even stated who is the Zionist entity in your original comment.
Though nice attempt to dodge the issue that Hamas is only interested in Hamas. Hamas does not want the Gazans to be free and govern themselves in Gaza. It cares nothing for the Gazans except as grist to their mill.

Couple of things here:

The Hamas Charter explicitly stated that Hamas' fight isn't against Jews. Hamas wants to govern all Palestinians. Palestinian Jews with ancestors who were citizens of the Ottoman Empire would be full citizens of the future State it describes. You might have your doubts that the current leadership and rank-and-file members would honor that part of the Charter. I certainly have mine. But your claim that the fight against the 'Zionist entity' the Charter is talking about means the extermination of all Jews in the Middle East is unsupported.

Also, I believe Hamas' leadership believes that if they succeed the people of Gaza would be free, because they would be free of the Zionist entity. Free of Hamas is a different matter.

As far as seeing Gazans as grist for their mill, I'm sure some Hamas members do that but I think there are more who truly believe their only chance at peace and proosperity is through winning the guerrilla war they're engaged in, and are pretty pissed that the IDF keeps killing unarmed civilians.

 

[laughing dog]

Meanwhile, the 3 month blockade of food and other essentials continues with the number of children reported to be treated for acute malnutrition rising from 2,000 in February to 3,600 in March.

 

[Tigers!]

Meanwhile, the 3 month blockade of food and other essentials continues with the number of children reported to be treated for acute malnutrition rising from 2,000 in February to 3,600 in March.

I am suprised that I have not seen any pictures of those children That would really drive the point home.

 

[pood]

Israel comes right out and admits it plans ethnic cleanings, forced deportations in Gaza. Boosted by Trump, of course.

How do you like that, supporters of Israel’s insane war?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Meanwhile, the 3 month blockade of food and other essentials continues with the number of children reported to be treated for acute malnutrition rising from 2,000 in February to 3,600 in March.

This is one of those things where we said that this act wouldn't lead to the release of hostages. It has not led to the release of the hostages. Continuing it won't lead to the release of the hostages. So the only reason to do it is to make the people suffer. Because they haven't risen up and attacked the people holding all of the guns.

It is inhumane and unjustifiable.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Meanwhile, the 3 month blockade of food and other essentials continues with the number of children reported to be treated for acute malnutrition rising from 2,000 in February to 3,600 in March.

I am suprised that I have not seen any pictures of those children That would really drive the point home.

Israel restricts access to Gaza.

Also, are you suggesting that a blockade of food wouldn't lead to starvation?

Israel comes right out and admits it plans ethnic cleanings, forced deportations in Gaza. Boosted by Trump, of course.

How do you like that, supporters of Israel’s insane war?

They are making the place uninhabitable.

 

[TomC]

Israel restricts access to Gaza.

Gazans are still holding kidnapped victims. They launched a missile barrage last month.

They keep the conflict going and pretend that the damage done to their human shields is the fault of Israel.
This is true and you know it.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

Israel restricts access to Gaza.

Gazans are still holding kidnapped victims. They launched a missile barrage last month.

They keep the conflict going and pretend that the damage done to their human shields is the fault of Israel.
This is true and you know it.
Tom

Starving the populace to get hostages returned is not working. There is no reason to think it will work. Blaming Hamas for Israel’s choices in an attempt to hide the brutality of Israel’s pointless tactics is ironic virtue signalling.

BTW, Israel broke the ceasefire, which means they are keeping the violence going this time.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Israel restricts access to Gaza.

Gazans are still holding kidnapped victims. They launched a missile barrage last month.

My text was maybe a bit too restricted to the quoted text above it. I was referring to why images of starving children aren't more prevalent, and the answer was Israel was restricting access to the press to Gaza.

They keep the conflict going and pretend that the damage done to their human shields is the fault of Israel.
This is true and you know it.

When a child is starving, the fault of whom is the most to blame is a rather petty thing to be concerned over. I mean, yes, it does matter at some level, but the child starving is all that should have any immediacy of call to action.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Israel restricts access to Gaza.

Gazans are still holding kidnapped victims. They launched a missile barrage last month.

They keep the conflict going and pretend that the damage done to their human shields is the fault of Israel.
This is true and you know it.
Tom

Starving the populace to get hostages returned is not working. There is no reason to think it will work. Blaming Hamas for Israel’s choices in an attempt to hide the brutality of Israel’s pointless tactics is ironic virtue signalling.

BTW, Israel broke the ceasefire, which means they are keeping the violence going this time.

What should matter most at this point is that there is pointless suffering that is needlessly happening... and all over a perverse intention to harm. We know Hamas are reprehensible. That doesn't make it right.

 

[laughing dog]

Israel restricts access to Gaza.

Gazans are still holding kidnapped victims. They launched a missile barrage last month.

They keep the conflict going and pretend that the damage done to their human shields is the fault of Israel.
This is true and you know it.
Tom

Starving the populace to get hostages returned is not working. There is no reason to think it will work. Blaming Hamas for Israel’s choices in an attempt to hide the brutality of Israel’s pointless tactics is ironic virtue signalling.

BTW, Israel broke the ceasefire, which means they are keeping the violence going this time.

What should matter most at this point is that there is pointless suffering that is needlessly happening... and all over a perverse intention to harm. We know Hamas are reprehensible. That doesn't make it right.

Especially since it isn’t working.