Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[pood]

Because Gaza is Iraq—but worse, live-streamed, and happening right now.

I'll try to get back to the rest of your post, but this is where you are profoundly wrong and immoral.
Israel was attacked by Gazans and the attack is ongoing. Israel is defending itself.

It was not attacked by Gaza. It was attacked by Hamas. You and other apologists for Israeli genocide are somehow unable to keep them distinct.

 

[TomC]

Because Gaza is Iraq—but worse, live-streamed, and happening right now.

I'll try to get back to the rest of your post, but this is where you are profoundly wrong and immoral.
Israel was attacked by Gazans and the attack is ongoing. Israel is defending itself.

It was not attacked by Gaza. It was attacked by Hamas. You and other apologists for Israeli genocide are somehow unable to keep them distinct.

You keep pretending that Hamas is not Gazans. Why is that?

More to the point, Israel is defending itself against attacks from Gaza. From a Gazan based military installation. Whether or not the Gazan leadership is native Gazans isn't the point. Destroying the attacks means fighting in Gaza.

Tom

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

I recognize that not every Gazan had any say in the buildup or the attacks. I was out in the streets opposing the US invasion of Iraq, that doesn't change the reality "America invaded Iraq"!

So you'd be okay with Iraqi soldiers bombing US hospitals, killing US ambulance drivers, and starving US children because all Americans did it.

Back in the invasion, I wouldn't blame them if they had bombed America. But the fact remains, the American leadership didn't use civilians as human shields. So no, I think your disgusting strawman arguments are stupid.
Tom

Ambulance drivers were not human shields, and starving children also has nothing to do with it, but thank you for your admission.

 

[TomC]

Ambulance drivers were not human shields, and starving children also has nothing to do with it, but thank you for your admission.

My admission? That I blame the aggressors for all the damage that they cause, not the defenders?
The reason that the IDF is involved in Gaza is because Gazans launched an ongoing attack. Virtually all of the civilian damage is because Gazans leadership keeps using the Gazans Who Don't Matter as human shields.
Tom

 

[pood]

Ambulance drivers were not human shields, and starving children also has nothing to do with it, but thank you for your admission.

My admission? That I blame the aggressors for all the damage that they cause, not the defenders?
The reason that the IDF is involved in Gaza is because Gazans launched an ongoing attack. Virtually all of the civilian damage is because Gazans leadership keeps using the Gazans Who Don't Matter as human shields.
Tom

Hamas, not “Gazans.” By now it is obvious you are deliberately eliding the distinction to bolster your crap apologetics.

 

[TomC]

Hamas, not “Gazans.” By now it is obvious you are deliberately eliding the distinction to bolster your crap apologetics.

By now it's obvious that Hamas is Gazans leadership. And that the attacks against Israel came from Gaza, so attacking the military strike capabilities that attacked Israel means attacking Gaza.

It's also obvious that you are desperate to blame Israel for the policies and decisions made by the Gazans Who Matter. That's your crap apologetics for violent Muslim terrorists.
Tom

 

[ZiprHead]

Hamas, not “Gazans.” By now it is obvious you are deliberately eliding the distinction to bolster your crap apologetics.

By now it's obvious that Hamas is Gazans leadership. And that the attacks against Israel came from Gaza, so attacking the military strike capabilities that attacked Israel means attacking Gaza.

Leading by violence is not leading, it's tyranny.

It's also obvious that you are desperate to blame Israel for the policies and decisions made by the Gazans Who Matter. That's your crap apologetics for violent Muslim terrorists.
Tom

Israel makes all it's own decisions. Nothing else.

 

[laughing dog]

Because Gaza is Iraq—but worse, live-streamed, and happening right now.

I'll try to get back to the rest of your post, but this is where you are profoundly wrong and immoral.
Israel was attacked by Gazans and the attack is ongoing. Israel is defending itself.

Since Israel is invading Gaza and bombing it, Whatever death and destruction Hamas inflicts pales in comparison to Israel's response. One could just as easily argue that Hamas is now defending itself from Israel using your rationale.

At this point, that doesn't matter. Hamas started the fight. Israel intends to end it. But calling the utter destruction of Gaza "defense" may make you feel better about the immorality of Israel's actions, but it doesn't change it.

In the end, your argument is basically that "the ends just the means" which is exactly Hamas's justifications for its terrorism.

 

[pood]

Hamas, not “Gazans.” By now it is obvious you are deliberately eliding the distinction to bolster your crap apologetics.

By now it's obvious that Hamas is Gazans leadership. And that the attacks against Israel came from Gaza, so attacking the military strike capabilities that attacked Israel means attacking Gaza.

It's also obvious that you are desperate to blame Israel for the policies and decisions made by the Gazans Who Matter. That's your crap apologetics for violent Muslim terrorists.
Tom

Hamas does not have a “military.” So more crap apologetics from you for Israeli genocide. Also, it seems that all of Israel’s genocide has failed to free the hostages or destroy Hamas. So now what? Do you favor Israel killing most Gazans and driving the rest into exile as Netanyahu’s Final Solution — which is what he has clearly stated? How do you like that Operation Gideon’s Chariots, hmmm?

 

[pood]

Hamas, not “Gazans.” By now it is obvious you are deliberately eliding the distinction to bolster your crap apologetics.

By now it's obvious that Hamas is Gazans leadership. And that the attacks against Israel came from Gaza, so attacking the military strike capabilities that attacked Israel means attacking Gaza.

It's also obvious that you are desperate to blame Israel for the policies and decisions made by the Gazans Who Matter. That's your crap apologetics for violent Muslim terrorists.
Tom

Also, do NOT label me an apologist for violent Muslim terrorists. I have CONDEMNED the Oct. 7 Hamas terrorist attacks. Furthermore, you should realize that condemning violent MUSLIM terrorists, instead of HAMAS terrorists, does not speak well of you. One billion Muslims did not attack Israel on Oct. 7, Yours is the typical Othering slur to indict an entire class of people for the sins of a tiny sliver of them.

It is, of course, perfectly appropriate for me to call you an apologist for Israeli terrorism, since you have not condemned it, as I have condemned Hamas terrorism.

 

[TomC]

Hamas does not have a “military.”

Maybe, by your standards, Hamas doesn't have a military. But Gazans sure as hell have one. They launched 10,000 missiles at once. The took hundreds of hostages. They're still launching missiles and holding hostages.

Are you saying that Hamas isn't attacking Israel, it's Gazans? Or what?

Looks like political apologetic bullshit to me, but feel free to explain who attacked Israel.
Tom

 

[TomC]

It is, of course, perfectly appropriate for me to call you an apologist for Israeli terrorism, since you have not condemned it, as I have condemned Hamas terrorism.

Do you consider Ukrainian defense "Ukrainian terrorism"? I don't. Because Ukraine is under attack from their neighbors and I'd be okay with almost anything they do to defend themselves.
Same with Israel. They've been under attack for centuries, from their Muslim neighbors for decades, and I find it quite reasonable for them to attack the current military strike capabilities with whatever means they find useful. I see no Israeli terrorism, only Muslim apologists trying to make moral parity between aggression and defense.
Tom

 

[NoHolyCows]

I'll try to get back to the rest of your post, but this is where you are profoundly wrong and immoral.
Israel was attacked by Gazans and the attack is ongoing. Israel is defending itself.

That's utterly unlike the situation in Iraq in 2003. The USA were the aggressors, without question. We're responsible for the death and destruction because we and our policies caused them. The GWM are the aggressors in this situation. There's nothing like moral parity between an aggressor and a defender.

And the biggest war crime in this situation is Hamas, and their supporters both Gazan and international, using the rest of the Gazans to protect their military strike capabilities.

You’re trying to draw a moral boundary between an “aggressor” and a “defender,” but you’re doing it by erasing context, legal obligations, and the actual scale and nature of the response. Let’s take your claims one by one.

Yes, Hamas committed war crimes on October 7—indisputable. But war crimes do not license more war crimes in return. That’s not “defense.” That’s revenge. And under international law, self-defense is not a blank check for mass killing, especially when civilians are the primary victims.

Collective punishment is a war crime. Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention states that “no protected person may be punished for an offense he or she has not personally committed.” Yet Israel has razed entire neighborhoods, bombed refugee camps, blocked aid, and engineered famine, all while claiming to be targeting Hamas. Over 35,000 Palestinians are dead—two-thirds of them women and children, according to UN and WHO estimates. That is not proportional, and it’s not morally or legally justified under any doctrine of self-defense.

You say “the biggest war crime is Hamas using civilians as shields.” First, yes, if Hamas embeds within civilian infrastructure, that’s a violation. But even if human shields are present, it does not absolve Israel of its legal duty to distinguish between combatants and civilians. You cannot flatten a city and then say the other side made you do it. That’s not defense. That’s a pretext.

Let’s be clear: Gaza is not a sovereign state with a standing army. It is an occupied, blockaded territory under Israeli control—airspace, sea, borders, population registry, electricity, and fuel. The people of Gaza did not “invade” Israel. A militant group did. In response, Israel has unleashed a scale of destruction so vast that multiple UN experts, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and the ICJ have all raised the alarm for genocide. This isn’t fringe commentary—it’s grounded in law and fact.

And as for “Gazans attacked Israel”—do you understand what it means to trap 2.2 million people for 17 years, half of them children, and then bomb them when militants retaliate? That’s not defending yourself. That’s manufacturing a perpetual enemy and calling the slaughter that follows justified.

Finally, let’s talk about your moral framing: you say Israel is the “defender” and there’s no “moral parity.” But morality without restraint, without law, and without proportionality isn’t morality. It’s supremacy.

If Hamas using civilians as shields is a war crime—and it is—then Israel killing those civilians anyway, en masse, is not justified. It’s a second, independent war crime. Two wrongs don’t cancel. They compound.

So yes, you’re right that 2003 Iraq was a war of aggression. But if you think this is self-defense, then you’ve redefined defense to mean whatever power says it means—and that’s the same logic Bush used in 2003.

NHC

 

[TomC]

Leading by violence is not leading, it's tyranny.

I agree. Too bad it's the standard issue Muslim form of leadership. Do you honestly think that the citizens of Iran or Saudi Arabia could insist on a democratic government, or any other major Muslim countries? I don't, because I am confident that Muslims are generally opposed to such governments.

Israel makes all it's own decisions. Nothing else.

Bullshit.
Israel has been forced to kill a bunch of Gazans by the policies of the Gazan leadership. Israel was attacked by the Gazan military strike capabilities, and have responded to defend Israelis. Why is this a difficult thing to understand? Israel is defending itself, Gazans are attacking them.

This is not hard, unless you are a violent Muslim apologist.
Tom

 

[TomC]

You’re trying to draw a moral boundary between an “aggressor” and a “defender,”

Yeah, sorry but I do draw a moral boundary between aggression and defense.

If a woman punched out a dude trying to rape her, would you agree that she should have first tried to understand his history and why he did it?

I wouldn't.
Punch the fuck out of the aggressor, and tough shit if they feel like victims.
Like the Gazans.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

It is, of

You’re trying to draw a moral boundary between an “aggressor” and a “defender,”

Yeah, sorry but I do draw a moral boundary between aggression and defense.

Fuck you. If a woman punched out a dude trying to rape her, would you agree that she should have first tried to understand his history and why he did it?

I wouldn't.
Punch the fuck out of the aggressor, and tough shit if they feel like victims.
Like the Gazans.
Tom

The problem with your analogy, is that most of Gazan victims did nothing aggressive. More than half of Gazans alive today were not alive when Hamas was elected. And since only Hamas and criminals have weapons, it is impossible for civilian Gazans to rise up and resist. And, now, if some civilians did get access to arms, the IDF would kill them since they'd think they were Hamas.

 

[pood]

Hamas does not have a “military.”

Maybe, by your standards, Hamas doesn't have a military. But Gazans sure as hell have one. They launched 10,000 missiles at once. The took hundreds of hostages. They're still launching missiles and holding hostages.

Hamas does these things, not Gazans. Gazans are in a desperate struggle for survival. Far from doing missile launches, they are desperately trying to find lunches.

Are you saying that Hamas isn't attacking Israel, it's Gazans? Or what?

Yes. Hamas attacked Israel. Not Gazans.

Looks like political apologetic bullshit to me, but feel free to explain who attacked Israel.
Tom

Good God, can you read? How many times have I said that Hamas attacked Israel and how many times have I condemned their atrocities?

You, by contrast, have not said jack shit about Israeli atrocities.

 

[TomC]

The problem with your analogy, is that most of Gazan victims did nothing aggressive.

How do you know that?

The Gazan leadership has been building a military strike capability for years. Most of Gazans knew that. They had to know, they dug the tunnels underneath Gazan hospitals.

Did enough Gazans oppose the violent Muslim terrorists that were using them as human shields for the international community to notice?

I don't think so. The international community didn't care about the Gazans Who Don't Matter enough to stop the Gazan military strike capabilities. So the Gazans Who Matter keep attacking Israel and and the international community keeps blaming Israel for responding.
Tom

 

[pood]

It is, of course, perfectly appropriate for me to call you an apologist for Israeli terrorism, since you have not condemned it, as I have condemned Hamas terrorism.

Do you consider Ukrainian defense "Ukrainian terrorism"? I don't. Because Ukraine is under attack from their neighbors and I'd be okay with almost anything they do to defend themselves.
Same with Israel. They've been under attack for centuries, from their Muslim neighbors for decades, and I find it quite reasonable for them to attack the current military strike capabilities with whatever means they find useful. I see no Israeli terrorism, only Muslim apologists trying to make moral parity between aggression and defense.
Tom

Wow, this is so twisted. You are revealing far more about yourself than you should care to find yourself doing. Let’s unpack the above.

What Israel is doing in Gaza is exactly the same as what Russia is doing in Ukraine. Your analogy is entirely backassward.

Gaza did not “invade” Israel. Some Hamas terrorists crossed the border and committed atrocities. In response, Israel is ravaging the entirety of Gaza, which is even worse than what Russia is doing in Ukraine,since most of Ukraine is intact and Russia has suffered huge casualties. Gazans have no such capacity to inflict casualties on the pople displacing and slaughtering them.

Israel has NOT been “under attack for centuries.” Israel only began to exist in 1948. Yes, Jewish presence in those lands dates back to antiquity, but so does the Palestinian presence. Vast numbers of Palestinians were driven off their lands and scattered abroad at the founding of modern Israel in 1948. That was the Nakbah.

Gazans have no “military strike” abilities. Israel is not attacking military strike abilities. They are attacking innocent men, women, and children, and committing heinous war crimes.

And there you go again conflating Palestinians with Muslims. Yes, most Palestinians ARE Muslims, but your cheap little slur is the tactic of those who desire to indict ALL Muslims everywhere for the actions of a tiny sliver of them.

“Muslim apologist.” Wow. Yes, I apologize to more than one billion Muslims worldwide for how they have been historically treated by the rapacious West. You owe them an apology, too.

 

[NoHolyCows]

Yeah, sorry but I do draw a moral boundary between aggression and defense.

Fuck you. If a woman punched out a dude trying to rape her, would you agree that she should have first tried to understand his history and why he did it?

I wouldn't.
Punch the fuck out of the aggressor, and tough shit if they feel like victims.
Like the Gazans.

The rape analogy is emotionally explosive, but also completely wrong. Hamas committing atrocities is not in dispute. But you are taking what Hamas did and using it to justify the mass killing of children, the bombing of hospitals, the starvation of 2 million civilians, and the destruction of an entire society. That’s not punching a rapist. That’s burning down an apartment complex because the rapist might be inside.

You say “tough shit if they feel like victims.” The 6-year-old pulled from rubble with no family left isn’t “feeling like a victim”—she is a victim. Under your logic, there is no line between justice and vengeance, between targeting and annihilation. You’ve replaced self-defense with dehumanization.

Let’s be brutally honest: you don’t believe in defense—you believe in punishment. Not of Hamas. Of Palestinians. You’ve collapsed 2.2 million people—half of them children—into a single enemy to be destroyed, and you call that morality. It’s not. It’s barbarism dressed up as principle.

If your ethics depend on excusing mass slaughter so long as the victims are dehumanized first, then you’ve lost the moral high ground you think you’re standing on. You didn’t draw a moral boundary—you erased it.

NHC