Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[TomC]

A monumental tragedy is already occurring, genocide in real time before our eyes.

And the disaster will continue as long as the culprits, Gazan leadership and their supporters, keep managing to shift the blame onto Israeli defense.
Tom

And as long as there are those who upchuck responsibility to only one side.

As long as people keep acting like the IDF is committing all the crimes, some of us are going to keep pointing out that the overwhelming bulk of the war crimes are, and have been, committed by Gazans and their international supporters.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

It's a very good question. Why didn't anyone do anything about the military buildup in Gaza before the catastrophe?
Tom

Perhaps for the same reasons you did nothing.

 

[TomC]

It's a very good question. Why didn't anyone do anything about the military buildup in Gaza before the catastrophe?
Tom

Perhaps for the same reasons you did nothing.

That's pretty stupid dude. You honestly think that I have as much ability and reason as the Egyptian ambassador to the UN? As much information?

Nah, you're just doing the blame shifting thing.
Again.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

It's a very good question. Why didn't anyone do anything about the military buildup in Gaza before the catastrophe?
Tom

Perhaps for the same reasons you did nothing.

That's pretty stupid dude.

Only to the unthinking.

You honestly think that I have as much ability and reason as the Egyptian ambassador to the UN? As much information?

Perhaps you had more freedom to make a report. You certainly had as much cause as the Egyptiam ambassador to the UN, but I doubt you had as much reason.

As to information, you said it was obvious what was happening, You did nothing. But you whine about others who you think should have acted in a way you choose not to. Perhaps if you thought about why did not you act, you might be able to grasp why others acted similarily.
It's called walking a mile in another person's shoes. T

Nah, you're just doing the blame shifting thing.
Again.
Tom

Even considering the source, that is an incredibly stupid accusation.

 

[TomC]

Perhaps you had more freedom to make a report. You certainly had as much cause as the Egyptiam ambassador to the UN, but I doubt you had as much reason.

I read various reports in different media outlets. Who do you think I could have reported to that didn't already know everything I did, and probably much more, plus had vastly more ability to get anything done?
Once again, you're just shifting the blame.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

Perhaps you had more freedom to make a report. You certainly had as much cause as the Egyptiam ambassador to the UN, but I doubt you had as much reason.

I read various reports in different media outlets. Who do you think I could have reported to that didn't already know everything I did, and probably much more, plus had vastly more ability to get anything done?

That is an excuse which may also be the answer to your question about why others did nothing.

Once again, you're just shifting the blame.
Tom

Blame for what? Do you feel guilty? And what is it with this compulsion of yours to attach blame?

 

[TomC]

That is an excuse which may also be the answer to your question about why others did nothing.

Do you think I have enough Intel and Clout to effect any changes in the situation between Gaza and Israel? I don't. I am convinced that a bunch of people, from the UN bigshots to Muslim leaders, did. They did no more than I, as far as I know.

Blame for what?

Blame for the Gazan leadership destroying Gazans. Hamas and their supporters, domestic and foreign, are why Gaza is such a disaster area right now.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

That is an excuse which may also be the answer to your question about why others did nothing.

Do you think I have enough Intel and Clout to effect any changes in the situation between Gaza and Israel? I don't. I am convinced that a bunch of people, from the UN bigshots to Muslim leaders, did. They did no more than I, as far as I know.

No, they probably didn’t. Maybe for the same reasons as you- perceived lack of influence.

Blame for what?

Blame for the Gazan leadership destroying Gazans. Hamas and their supporters, domestic and foreign, are why Gaza is such a disaster area right now.
Tom

With a more than a smidgen of assistance from the IDF and its supporters.

 

[TomC]

No, they probably didn’t. Maybe for the same reasons you- perceived lack of influence.

Seriously? You think that I have as much influence as they do?
You're just blowing shit here.

With a more than a smidgen of assistance from the IDF and its supporters.

Honestly, I thought about that at the time.
If I and everyone else knew about the tunnels and military buildup, but didn't do anything, WHY?

They were setting up the Gazans for the current situation. By ignoring the military installations under and adjacent to civilian infrastructure, they knew that they were setting up Gazans for destruction when they attacked Israel. Which they did. Gazans using their own people for human shields is the humanitarian disaster going on here. That and rich Muslims funding the leadership doing it. And the international media and demonstrators blaming Israel instead of the Gazans Who Matter.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

No, they probably didn’t. Maybe for the same reasons you- perceived lack of influence.

Seriously? You think that I have as much influence as they do?
You're just blowing shit here.

Not at all. Perhaps you didn’t ubderstand “perceived lzck of influence”. It means they may have thought they'd have no influence - just as you did. Whether they actually did or not is a different issue.

With a more than a smidgen of assistance from the IDF and its supporters.

Honestly, I thought about that at the time.
If I and everyone else knew about the tunnels and military buildup, but didn't do anything, WHY?

They were setting up the Gazans for the current situation. By ignoring the military installations under and adjacent to civilian infrastructure, they knew that they were setting up Gazans for destruction when they attacked Israel. Which they did. Gazans using their own people for human shields is the humanitarian disaster going on here. That and rich Muslims funding the leadership doing it. And the international media and demonstrators blaming Israel instead of the Gazans Who Matter.
Tom

Look who’s blowing shit now with evidence- free conspiracy theory.

 

[TomC]

Not at all. Perhaps you didn’t ubderstand “perceived lzck of influence”. It means they may have thought they'd have no influence - just as you did. Whether they actually did or not is a different issue.

I think it's the main issue.

If you are saying that the UN, the Egyptian government, and the Jordanian government all felt too weak and powerless to get involved in the mass destruction of the Gazans Who Don't Matter, then I am not sure what to say.
Except that you seem desperate to find a way to blame people other than Muslims. Like Israel and me.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

Not at all. Perhaps you didn’t ubderstand “perceived lzck of influence”. It means they may have thought they'd have no influence - just as you did. Whether they actually did or not is a different issue.

I think it's the main issue.

If you are saying that the UN, the Egyptian government, and the Jordanian government all felt too weak and powerless to get involved in the mass destruction of the Gazans Who Don't Matter, then I am not sure what to say.

Except that you seem desperate to find a way to blame people other than Muslims. Like Israel and me.
Tom

Ah, the “every accusation is a confession”. Maybe if you’re not sure what yo say, you should shut up.

 

[TomC]

Ah, the “every accusation is a confession”. Maybe if you’re not sure what yo say, you should shut up.

Bullshit.

I'm absolutely certain that the Egyptian military had Intel and Clout. You are the one who doesn't know what you are talking about.

You are the one who thinks that "perhaps" I have as much international clout as anyone.
Dumbass
Tom

 

[Derec]

Welcome to IIDB, NoHolyCows

For me im not pretending anything. I’m rejecting your attempt to erase the distinction between a militant organization and 2.2 million civilians—because that erasure is precisely how mass atrocities get justified.

I said that pood was pretending. And I am not erasing this distinction. But Hamas and other terror groups that attacked Israel are the ones endangering their civilian population. First, by starting this war, and second, by hiding and operating from amongst the civilian population. Like this rocket launcher (that shoots unguided missiles at Israeli cities) situated in the midst of a tent encampment.

You say Hamas is “an integral part of Gazan society.” What does that mean, exactly?

It means that it is not some outside force imposed on Gazans. It was founded in Gaza. Most of its leadership is Gazan. And Hamas enjoys a lot of support in Gaza.

That every child, doctor, teacher, and grandmother is fair game? That every bomb dropped on a home is just “defense” because someone in Gaza voted 18 years ago?

Of course not! But blame lies with Gaza, which started this war of aggression, and conducts in in a way that puts its own population in undue danger.

Gaza hasn’t had elections since 2006. Over half the population wasn’t even alive then. Are they “integral to Hamas” too?

Many of them are. You don't need to vote in formal election to support Hamas, to join it, or to attack Israel wearing the green Hamas headband.

Yes, some non-Hamas actors likely participated in October 7. But again: that doesn’t justify obliterating the entire population. That’s not justice. That’s collective punishment—a war crime under Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention.

Even according to Hamas casualty numbers, only about 2.5% of Gaza's population has been killed so far, far cry from "obliterating the entire population". And again, there are so many dead because of actions of Hamas and their allies.

Another thing. Even using Hamas' own numbers, military age males are greatly overrepresented among. Just before the recent ceasefire, I downloaded a list of all fatalities as reported by Hamas, with name, sex and age. I then made this:

Note first that we should discount age 0 as a glitch. It seems that Hamas MOH put "0" whenever age was unknown.
But besides that, we see that the female fatality distribution follows the population pyramid, as it tapers off, as you would expect from random civilian casualties of war. But male fatalities show a distinct bulge from teens through 40s, i.e. military age (Hamas et al recruit them young).
And again, these are Hamas' own figures. The true numbers are probably even more skewed toward military age males.

You’re not talking about defense. You’re arguing for guilt by geography. By that logic, every American should’ve been fair game after Abu Ghraib.

I am not arguing for guilt by geography. I am saying that in a war, you will have civilian casualties and fatalities. Especially when the enemy violates the laws of war and operates from civilian areas, such as the humanitaries Al Mawasi area, or from a tunnel underneath a hospital.

Every Israeli a target after Sabra and Shatila.

Wasn't that attack committed by a Lebanese Christian militia?
Besides, every Israeli is already a target of Palestinian, Hezbollah and Houthi terrorists.

You don’t believe that, and you’d call it terrorism if someone tried it.

Deliberately attacking a civilian population is fundamentally different from collateral damage in warfare. Especially when civilians are deliberately endangered by the other party in the conflict.
Hamas’s Sinwar said to laud high civilian death toll in Gaza as ‘necessary sacrifice’

This isn’t about denying Hamas’s integration into the political reality of Gaza.

For pood it is, since he keeps making a distinction that does not exist in reality.

It’s about refusing to accept your logic that being born in Gaza is a death sentence. That’s not defense. That’s extermination.

It is not a "death sentence", but it is a dangerous place with a lot of suffering. Not unlike Berlin in 1945.
At least Nazi Germany eventually capitulated and gave up their arms.

And you can dress it up however you like—but history will remember that argument for what it is.

The argument is not that Gazan civilians are fair game, but that their suffering is the direct result of their government's actions. Both in starting and in prosecuting this war.

 

[ZiprHead]

Ah, the “every accusation is a confession”. Maybe if you’re not sure what yo say, you should shut up.

Bullshit.

I'm absolutely certain that the Egyptian military had Intel and Clout. You are the one who doesn't know what you are talking about.

Really??? You don't seem to know that Egypt has been cracking down on tunnels between Egypt and Gaza for years?

Reports about tunnels between Gaza and Egypt are complex and have been a point of contention, particularly in the context of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Here's a breakdown of the situation:
1. Tunnel Existence and Purpose:

• Smuggling: Historically, tunnels have been used to smuggle goods, including weapons and other materials, between Gaza and Egypt.
• Hamas: Israel has claimed that Hamas utilizes these tunnels for various purposes, including weapons smuggling and potentially the movement of personnel.

2. Egyptian Actions:

• Crackdown: Egypt has reportedly been actively working to destroy tunnels along the border in recent years.
• Buffer Zone and Security Measures: Egypt has established a buffer zone and implemented security measures to combat smuggling and other illicit activities along the border.
• Denials of Operational Tunnels: Egyptian officials have refuted claims of active, operational tunnels on their side of the border. They have stated that while tunnels may have existed in the past, they have been destroyed.

Maybe it would be better to learn about a subject before you make a fool of yourself again.

 

[TomC]

Really??? You don't seem to know that Egypt has been cracking down on tunnels between Egypt and Gaza for years?

In what way were tunnels between Gaza and Egypt important? It's the tunnels underneath Gazan hospitals and the one's that Gazans launched the invasion of Israel that matter in this discussion.

But what you're saying is that Egypt knew about Gazan tunnels, but only cared about the ones that affected them. Is that correct?
Tom

ETA ~Why do you suppose that nobody in the surrounding Muslim nations are willing to accept desperate Gazans, who want safety? ~

 

[laughing dog]

Ah, the “every accusation is a confession”. Maybe if you’re not sure what yo say, you should shut up.

Bullshit.

What is bullshit”? You’re the fixated on assessing blame, not me. You’re the one who said he wasn’t sure what to say. I just gave some well- intended advice.

I'm absolutely certain that the Egyptian military had Intel and Clout.

And they act on it sometimes. But, in case you forgot, Gaza ain’t Egypt, and Gazans aren’t Egyptians.

You are the one who doesn't know what you are talking about.

Perhaps, but your responses are becoming more unhinged and even less on the topic of discussion than ususl.

Dumbass
Tom

Another ‘every accusation is a confession”.

 

[pood]

Of course not! But blame lies with Gaza, which started this war of aggression,

There goes silly little Derec, yet again saying another silly little false thing.

 

[pood]

Except that you seem desperate to find a way to blame people other than Muslims. Like Israel and me.
Tom

Yes, we know, Tom, you’ve used the word “Musím” as a catch-all so many times that it’s perfectly clear you hold more than one billion Muslims worldwide accountable for the actions of a tiny few. But go ahead and keep on dehumanizing a huge chunk of the human species if if makes you feel good.

 

[TomC]

Yes, we know, Tom, you’ve used the word “Musím” as a catch-all so many times that it’s perfectly clear you hold more than one billion Muslims worldwide accountable for the actions of a tiny few.

Your inability to respond to what I post without lying about me makes it quite clear that you don't have a reasonable response to what I actually say.
Over and over.

. But go ahead and keep on dehumanizing a huge chunk of the human species if if makes you feel good.

I'm pointing out that the people who are responsible for the disaster in Gaza are being supported by other Muslims and people like you. People who refuse to look at the facts and blindly support the people who are destroying the Gazans Who Don't Matter.
Tom