• Welcome to the Internet Infidels Discussion Board.

Keystone Pipeline

We have an automobile industry that fought tooth and nail against CAFE standards for years and years, so it would not have to retool and redesign. Do you really think this industry is on the side of its customers? It also fought seat belts and air bags...both of which save many lives these days. When you listen to the oil and chemical industry propaganda you are just giving them their head so they can wring more money out of you with less actual service being delivered. This practice is so widespread and extends into almost every aspect of our lives...arguing for customer risk in service of corporate profits. Think on that a bit and you will see that not every company does it but those that do gain economic advantage over their competitors with more conscience. That is the main reason we need to regulate big business.
 
Pollutants are only a problem for biosphere health when they are sufficiently concentrated. If they spread a little, that can be a bad thing. If they spread a lot, then that is the end of the problem.

The dose makes the poison; a few parts per trillion of heavy metals is not pollution, it is normality. The only exceptions I can think of to the general rule that the solution to pollution is dilution are halogenated fluorocarbons, and greenhouse gasses, both of which are harmful in small quantities due to their mode of action. The former group of chemicals have now been banned; reducing emissions of the latter to sustainable levels is more intractable. Certainly forcing the shale-oil producers to use trains to transport their product rather than pipelines is not helping with that problem - in fact, it is making it worse. A classic case of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

I agree that the coal and oil that is currently in the ground should mostly stay in the ground. But to achieve this would require a ban on extracting the stuff. Banning some modes of transport for it once it is already out of the ground simply makes producers fall back on less efficient options, with the result that the damage done is worse than it would otherwise be. Are your really sure you want to campaign for higher CO2 emissions from the oil industry? Because that is what opposing pipelines is doing - rail transport is worse in almost every possible way.

That was an idiotic thing to say and you know it.
No, it really isn't
The tar sands projects are virtually wringing trapped oil out of the ground with a grinder a separator and then a 900 C reactor and piles of chemical additives to produce an end product that is filthy with heavy metals.
Yes. And preventing them from shipping the end product via pipeline changes this not one whit.
You need to look at state and federal drinking water standards.
Why? Do they show how much better it is to use railcars to shift oil rather than pipelines?
Some of the heavy metals have limitations of allowable concentrations in the parts per billion.
I know. So what?
We ought to be prohibiting importation of Tar Sands "Crude" (probably should be called CRUDEST) into the U.S. in any manner whatever.
Perhaps. But you are NOT doing that; You are campaigning against the least worst option, despite knowing it will result in the use of worse options.
The pollutants in that oil still need to be separated from it and disposed of somewhere in our country if it is processed here...and then protected from spreading. You truly do not understand the meaning of or how pollution occurs.
Yes, I do.

You should probably stop telling me what I do and don't know, as you are VERY bad at it.
Everything about this project smacks of increased risks and expenses to the American people.
Really? Pipelines crash more often than trains or trucks do they?
I am in agreement with you about the trains hauling this stuff...you see we agree...just not completely.
You can't agree with me, as you clearly have no clue what my position even IS.

My point is that opposing the pipeline will not and cannot achieve any desirable ends; and that it will and indeed already is do more harm than good.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. You need to stop trying to be well intentioned, and start being effective. If you care about the environment, that is. If you just like the sound of your own voice, and/or the sight of lots of red text, then carry on as you are.
 
Which witty saying should I use here? Pot meet kettle...first take the plank from your own eye...my irony meter just broke...

Unfortunately, it appears you believe the only way to keep planks out of your eye is to keep them closed. In regard to petrochemical pollution of our environment, we MUST CHANGE OUR COURSE. I am not telling everybody to take a hammer to their car, just wise up that we are on a dead end path with things like Keystone and deep water drilling and strip mining for oil. The human race has technology in its hands to destroy its own environment. I only have a few years left to live and can probably do reasonably well for the rest of my life, but if you realize there are kids being born today, this shit should make no sense to them. We are accruing monstrous opportunity costs by continuing with zombie technologies. These kids will pay...probably I won't. I really don't understand what you are saying here. What is ironic about not wanting to see unnecessary suffering or perhaps extinction?

Mother nature does not ask us to vote on what IT WILL DO. We are given warnings by nature and when we fail to understand them, there have been in our past terrible consequences. We are much larger a force on the planet with every passing day and our mistakes carry with them greater consequences. So go figure. How can we continue to sacrifice large swaths of our environment for something as simple as getting around or boiling water? I was surprised to get this comment from you.

I don't think anyone in this thread has denied the problems with fossil fuels. I don't think anyone is denying the earth destroying potential of global warming. There are technologies that can mostly eliminate fossil fuels in the pipe line. In the mean time, the world NEEDS oil. The XL section of the pipeline will be economically beneficial and we need a strong economy so you can tax the shit out of it to pay for healthcare, education, food stamps, and to further fund scientific research into alternative fuels.
 
Unfortunately, it appears you believe the only way to keep planks out of your eye is to keep them closed. In regard to petrochemical pollution of our environment, we MUST CHANGE OUR COURSE. I am not telling everybody to take a hammer to their car, just wise up that we are on a dead end path with things like Keystone and deep water drilling and strip mining for oil. The human race has technology in its hands to destroy its own environment. I only have a few years left to live and can probably do reasonably well for the rest of my life, but if you realize there are kids being born today, this shit should make no sense to them. We are accruing monstrous opportunity costs by continuing with zombie technologies. These kids will pay...probably I won't. I really don't understand what you are saying here. What is ironic about not wanting to see unnecessary suffering or perhaps extinction?

Mother nature does not ask us to vote on what IT WILL DO. We are given warnings by nature and when we fail to understand them, there have been in our past terrible consequences. We are much larger a force on the planet with every passing day and our mistakes carry with them greater consequences. So go figure. How can we continue to sacrifice large swaths of our environment for something as simple as getting around or boiling water? I was surprised to get this comment from you.

I don't think anyone in this thread has denied the problems with fossil fuels. I don't think anyone is denying the earth destroying potential of global warming. There are technologies that can mostly eliminate fossil fuels in the pipe line. In the mean time, the world NEEDS oil. The XL section of the pipeline will be economically beneficial and we need a strong economy so you can tax the shit out of it to pay for healthcare, education, food stamps, and to further fund scientific research into alternative fuels.

The world NEEDS alternatives to go on line, and as these alternatives go on line, the world NEEDS LESS OIL. This need you speak of would simply be the result of doing nothing in the realm of alternatives and continuing subsidizing the oil industry. The reality you are not seeing is the vicious economic and political war the petroleum industry has been waging against the alternative power industry for at least the last 60 years I know of. They represent themselves as the only "viable" game in town. They are playing a huge opportunity cost game to retain their control of our economy. Don't be one of their shills. If you have children who you want to live for at least 50 more years, you should look closely at what you are ignoring. Attitudes like yours transfers onto them the burden of your inaction and indeed society's inaction today.

As I have said before and now have to reiterate, Tar Sands "Crude" production increases the CO2 emissions per unit by nearly half by the energy requirements of the mining and processing required. You do not decrease CO2 emissions by increasing production and adding a method that has a high energy demand itself. If we have enough oil production today to power society, we really have no need to do anything but get busy with alternatives and decrease that need...not create a whole new means of further CO2 emissions. I shouldn't have to explain this to you. Actually electric driven transportation is cheaper to produce and does not wear out as quickly as reciprocating engines. This ought to free up a lot of auto mechanics for other work like making alternative energy devices instead of being grease monkeys. What is stopping us from transforming our energy system....ideological inertia. Don't make yourself a part of this.

Today there are two things standing in the way of this Canadian nightmare tar sands process flooding the world with new oil supplies. The first is the price of conventional oils...the Saudis are working on that. The second is this pipeline connecting their bonanza oil operation to refineries and to gulf coast sea ports not being constructed. There really is no need for this oil at this time or any future time. Don't by the jive we need more oil. It simply is not true. Not building the pipeline is tantamount to rejecting this supply and all it implies to our environment. You live in this environment too.:thinking:
 
The world NEEDS alternatives to go on line, and as these alternatives go on line, the world NEEDS LESS OIL.

Yes, but it will happen slowly. There are 250 million cars in the US. Not everyone can afford to ditch their car and get a new electric. That is a HUGE industry that includes a lot of infrastructure..it's not gonna happen tomorrow.

This need you speak of would simply be the result of doing nothing in the realm of alternatives and continuing subsidizing the oil industry.
I'm not for oil subsidies. I'm not really for alt-energy subsidies either, but we have those as well.

The reality you are not seeing is the vicious economic and political war the petroleum industry has been waging against the alternative power industry for at least the last 60 years I know of.

Fully aware of it, some of it is just conspiracy theory nonsense.

They represent themselves as the only "viable" game in town.

Most of the large oil companies have diversified into "energy" companies. They know the future is without oil and they are making moves in that direction.

They are playing a huge opportunity cost game to retain their control of our economy.

I'm not buying it.

If you have children who you want to live for at least 50 more years, you should look closely at what you are ignoring. Attitudes like yours transfers onto them the burden of your inaction and indeed society's inaction today.
The best way to make sure of this is to let entrepreneurs do what entrepreneurs do. The solutions will come from people like Elon Musk, not Al Gore.

As I have said before and now have to reiterate, Tar Sands "Crude" production increases the CO2 emissions per unit by nearly half by the energy requirements of the mining and processing required. You do not decrease CO2 emissions by increasing production and adding a method that has a high energy demand itself. If we have enough oil production today to power society, we really have no need to do anything but get busy with alternatives and decrease that need...not create a whole new means of further CO2 emissions. I shouldn't have to explain this to you. Actually electric driven transportation is cheaper to produce and does not wear out as quickly as reciprocating engines. This ought to free up a lot of auto mechanics for other work like making alternative energy devices instead of being grease monkeys. What is stopping us from transforming our energy system....ideological inertia. Don't make yourself a part of this.

A) You don't need to remind anyone in this thread about how shitty the Tar Sands are. You don't need to post the pictures again. If we don't plan for future oil needs we will wake up with $25 a gallon oil prices and you know who that is gonna hurt? It's not gonna hurt those driving $60K Teslas. It's gonna destroy those on the bottom. The mother struggling to feed her to kids will suddenly find that going to work and back now costs 10x more. It's those kind of people who will be FUCKED.

B) Electric is cheaper when we have an economy of scale. We are not there yet. Here is a list of the moderately priced EV:

1) Mitsubishi i-MiEV - $23,845
2) Chevrolet Spark EV - $27,495
3) Nissan Leaf - $29,830
4) Fiat 500e - $32,650

If I'm not mistaken the car companies are usually taking a loss to get this stuff to market. We also need to work more on battery technology. I've be nervous about buying one because the battery might just crap out as often happens in my laptops and cell phones, but with a car I'd be screwed to the tune of $15K.

C) Ideological inertia isn't stopping shit. When something is cheaper and better *BOOM* people buy it. Ideological inertia will last a few days. These products are coming fast and faster than a lot of us thought. The trick is not to completely fuck the economy and the little guy BEFORE we get there.




Today there are two things standing in the way of this Canadian nightmare tar sands process flooding the world with new oil supplies. The first is the price of conventional oils...the Saudis are working on that. The second is this pipeline connecting their bonanza oil operation to refineries and to gulf coast sea ports not being constructed. There really is no need for this oil at this time or any future time. Don't by the jive we need more oil. It simply is not true. Not building the pipeline is tantamount to rejecting this supply and all it implies to our environment. You live in this environment too.:thinking:

Nothing is standing in the way of the XL. Obama is just playing stupid games to pander to the likes of you, but in the end it's a done deal. And If I'm gonna waste any activist energy it will be to get people to ride bicycles and fight for more pedestrian friendly cities.
 
And If I'm gonna waste any activist energy it will be to get people to ride bicycles and fight for more pedestrian friendly cities.

If you think CO2 is the problem the lowest hanging fruit is probably to switch from coal to natural gas or nukes.
 
The world NEEDS alternatives to go on line, and as these alternatives go on line, the world NEEDS LESS OIL. This need you speak of would simply be the result of doing nothing in the realm of alternatives and continuing subsidizing the oil industry.
Alternatives are being developed and adopted as we speak. But it's a long process and in the meanwhile (30 more years at least) the world will need a lot of oil. That is demand that will not be able to be covered with easy to access light sweet crude.

The reality you are not seeing is the vicious economic and political war the petroleum industry has been waging against the alternative power industry for at least the last 60 years I know of. They represent themselves as the only "viable" game in town.
Yes, I see oil executives chaining themselves to the doors of the Tesla factories or perhaps unfurling banners from wind generator towers. Oh, my bad, those are the tactics of the radical environmentalists. :)
Seriously though, alternatives take time to develop. Oil is a very good source of energy. Very high energy density, relatively easy to make into a practical fuel and so far plentiful. There is no conspiracy needed to explain why it has become the engine of the modern economy.

They are playing a huge opportunity cost game to retain their control of our economy. Don't be one of their shills. If you have children who you want to live for at least 50 more years, you should look closely at what you are ignoring. Attitudes like yours transfers onto them the burden of your inaction and indeed society's inaction today.
Nobody is arguing for inaction. But action will take time and in the meantime we will need oil. That is just a fact.
Also, do you really miss Medicine Man so much than you have to take on one of his ticks? :)

As I have said before and now have to reiterate, Tar Sands "Crude" production increases the CO2 emissions per unit by nearly half by the energy requirements of the mining and processing required.
In a previous post it was "an order of magnitude", but even half is too much. When looked at on a well-to-wheels basis, using the entire life cycle oil sands are about 10% more carbon intensive than Saudi Arabian oil and less than 10% compared to other sources of oil we use.
FS-CES-GHG-Chart-Well2Wheels.png

You do not decrease CO2 emissions by increasing production and adding a method that has a high energy demand itself.
You are misunderstanding him. You do decrease CO2 emissions by using a less carbon intensive method to transport oil. Pipelines take less energy to move a given quantity of oil than trains and are thus preferable from the energy standpoint - and from the safety and cost standpoint as well.

If we have enough oil production today to power society, we really have no need to do anything but get busy with alternatives and decrease that need...not create a whole new means of further CO2 emissions. I shouldn't have to explain this to you.

Actually electric driven transportation is cheaper to produce and does not wear out as quickly as reciprocating engines. This ought to free up a lot of auto mechanics for other work like making alternative energy devices instead of being grease monkeys. What is stopping us from transforming our energy system....ideological inertia. Don't make yourself a part of this.
The weakness of the electric cars is still energy storage. Gasoline has a much bigger energy density by both weight and volume than batteries. Good news is that battery technology as well as hydrogen as an alternative storage medium are aggressively researched. Again, nobody here has anything against progress. But we do realize that we will need oil for the foreseeable future and low hanging fruit has been long since picked.

Today there are two things standing in the way of this Canadian nightmare tar sands process flooding the world with new oil supplies. The first is the price of conventional oils...the Saudis are working on that.
You do understand that Saudis use a lot of water to get their oil out of the ground, right? That they use fracking and acid in some fields? That their oil also contains sulfur and heavy metals?
And nobody really thinks the relatively low oil prices will last long anyway.

The second is this pipeline connecting their bonanza oil operation to refineries and to gulf coast sea ports not being constructed.
Even if Obama doesn't approve the pipeline President Walker or President Bush certainly will. Hell, even President Hillary probably will as well as she seems less beholden to Steyer than Obama.

There really is no need for this oil at this time or any future time.
You are simply wrong on that.

Don't by the jive we need more oil.
???

It simply is not true. Not building the pipeline is tantamount to rejecting this supply and all it implies to our environment. You live in this environment too.:thinking:
Even if you manage to, by blocking the Keystone XL pipeline, to shut down Canadian oil sands development it will merely be replaced by Venezuelan oil sands. Hardly a win for the environment.
But blocking Keystone XL will not accomplish that anyway. There is Keystone Classic. There are existing and proposed pipelines in Canada. And of course, there are oil trains.
 
B) Electric is cheaper when we have an economy of scale. We are not there yet. Here is a list of the moderately priced EV:

1) Mitsubishi i-MiEV - $23,845
2) Chevrolet Spark EV - $27,495
3) Nissan Leaf - $29,830
4) Fiat 500e - $32,650

If I'm not mistaken the car companies are usually taking a loss to get this stuff to market. We also need to work more on battery technology. I've be nervous about buying one because the battery might just crap out as often happens in my laptops and cell phones, but with a car I'd be screwed to the tune of $15K.

And electric cars are not an answer to CO2 emissions at all. So long as we are generating any power from fossil fuels it doesn't help. If we are getting power from coal it's actually worse.

Hybrids are another matter and would be greatly helped by better batteries.
 
Alternatives are being developed and adopted as we speak. But it's a long process and in the meanwhile (30 more years at least) the world will need a lot of oil. That is demand that will not be able to be covered with easy to access light sweet crude.

The reality you are not seeing is the vicious economic and political war the petroleum industry has been waging against the alternative power industry for at least the last 60 years I know of. They represent themselves as the only "viable" game in town.
Yes, I see oil executives chaining themselves to the doors of the Tesla factories or perhaps unfurling banners from wind generator towers. Oh, my bad, those are the tactics of the radical environmentalists. :)
Seriously though, alternatives take time to develop. Oil is a very good source of energy. Very high energy density, relatively easy to make into a practical fuel and so far plentiful. There is no conspiracy needed to explain why it has become the engine of the modern economy.

They are playing a huge opportunity cost game to retain their control of our economy. Don't be one of their shills. If you have children who you want to live for at least 50 more years, you should look closely at what you are ignoring. Attitudes like yours transfers onto them the burden of your inaction and indeed society's inaction today.
Nobody is arguing for inaction. But action will take time and in the meantime we will need oil. That is just a fact.
Also, do you really miss Medicine Man so much than you have to take on one of his ticks? :)

As I have said before and now have to reiterate, Tar Sands "Crude" production increases the CO2 emissions per unit by nearly half by the energy requirements of the mining and processing required.
In a previous post it was "an order of magnitude", but even half is too much. When looked at on a well-to-wheels basis, using the entire life cycle oil sands are about 10% more carbon intensive than Saudi Arabian oil and less than 10% compared to other sources of oil we use.
View attachment 2376

You do not decrease CO2 emissions by increasing production and adding a method that has a high energy demand itself.
You are misunderstanding him. You do decrease CO2 emissions by using a less carbon intensive method to transport oil. Pipelines take less energy to move a given quantity of oil than trains and are thus preferable from the energy standpoint - and from the safety and cost standpoint as well.

If we have enough oil production today to power society, we really have no need to do anything but get busy with alternatives and decrease that need...not create a whole new means of further CO2 emissions. I shouldn't have to explain this to you.

Actually electric driven transportation is cheaper to produce and does not wear out as quickly as reciprocating engines. This ought to free up a lot of auto mechanics for other work like making alternative energy devices instead of being grease monkeys. What is stopping us from transforming our energy system....ideological inertia. Don't make yourself a part of this.
The weakness of the electric cars is still energy storage. Gasoline has a much bigger energy density by both weight and volume than batteries. Good news is that battery technology as well as hydrogen as an alternative storage medium are aggressively researched. Again, nobody here has anything against progress. But we do realize that we will need oil for the foreseeable future and low hanging fruit has been long since picked.

Today there are two things standing in the way of this Canadian nightmare tar sands process flooding the world with new oil supplies. The first is the price of conventional oils...the Saudis are working on that.
You do understand that Saudis use a lot of water to get their oil out of the ground, right? That they use fracking and acid in some fields? That their oil also contains sulfur and heavy metals?
And nobody really thinks the relatively low oil prices will last long anyway.

The second is this pipeline connecting their bonanza oil operation to refineries and to gulf coast sea ports not being constructed.
Even if Obama doesn't approve the pipeline President Walker or President Bush certainly will. Hell, even President Hillary probably will as well as she seems less beholden to Steyer than Obama.

There really is no need for this oil at this time or any future time.
You are simply wrong on that.

Don't by the jive we need more oil.
???

It simply is not true. Not building the pipeline is tantamount to rejecting this supply and all it implies to our environment. You live in this environment too.:thinking:
Even if you manage to, by blocking the Keystone XL pipeline, to shut down Canadian oil sands development it will merely be replaced by Venezuelan oil sands. Hardly a win for the environment.
But blocking Keystone XL will not accomplish that anyway. There is Keystone Classic. There are existing and proposed pipelines in Canada. And of course, there are oil trains.

For you, it appears "out of sight out of mind" is your operative principle. It does not matter if the oil produced by a project can ultimately be processed into the cleanest burning fuel on earth if the processing chain (number of processes involved in acquiring it and refining it) has too many highly polluting steps. All the processes from the ground to the tank EACH HAVE THEIR OWN EMISSIONS. You are ignoring the emissions that occur in Canada. CO2 emissions are not the whole story anyway. You are ignoring the water pollution that happens in Canada. You are ignoring the fact that the destruction of Canadian ecosystems will fulminate as soon as their process have a massive pipeline to deliver its product. You are ignoring the massive water usage and pollution tar sands oil production. Mostly, you are also ignoring the opportunity costs of these projects to Canada, even before we begin to consider their impacts on the U.S. and worldwide. You have a pedestrian view of pollution that allows the oil companies to do this harm to us. There is a parallel between the tar sands issue and the gold strip mining issue. That is the ratio of environmental harm per unit of produced end product. Your eye is not on the ball. It is instead nervously on the accelerator pedal of your car. Your argument is mostly one of political and conceptual inertia and is whole heartedly welcomed by Exxon, Bush, Walker, Clinton, et al., with their corporate oil affiliations that fuel their campaigns and fortunes.

You do not seem to understand we are a nation that has a monumental job on its plate...getting off of fossil fuels. We have a nation whose mass media, and whole political machinery is at the beck and call of the petrochemical industry. You are just another voice calling for more pollution and a slowdown of our efforts to get off the oil train. It truly amazes me that Dubbiya was right about one thing....we are addicted to oil, no matter how destructive it is to our environment...and the future quality of life for the entire human race. Granted this pipeline may not be "game over" for us, but it is a very lousy game we are looking at in the future with more foot dragging on alternatives.

The evidence is already in on global warming. The evidence is already in on pollution of our oceans our air and our land environment. Extinctions are happening today at a rate unprecedented in human history. All I am hearing from you is petrochemical alternatives as THE ONLY WAY FORWARD. Other nations in the world are moving ahead of the U.S, in terms of energy conservation, mass transportation, electric car development, electronics, and alternative energy. We are not in a good place politically or environmentally, and this project will help fix us in our petrochemical rut. I am sure the oil industry appreciates your efforts in its behalf.
 
For you, it appears "out of sight out of mind" is your operative principle.
No. But looking at the big picture is.

It does not matter if the oil produced by a project can ultimately be processed into the cleanest burning fuel on earth if the processing chain (number of processes involved in acquiring it and refining it) has too many highly polluting steps.
Looking at CO2 emissions specifically, it doesn't matter if a certain kind of oil emits much more CO2 than some other kinds of oil. If by far the most CO2 gets released during final burning of the fuel then the differences will be modest, as my chart shows. Another thing is that if the global demand cannot be met with easier, cleaner kinds of oil then by necessity we must also use the marginal sources. Oil has been produced on a large scale for about a century. Easy reserves are all but depleted, we are going after increasingly difficult stuff now.

All the processes from the ground to the tank EACH HAVE THEIR OWN EMISSIONS. You are ignoring the emissions that occur in Canada.
No, I am not. They are part of the picture. Oil sands are a very difficult oil to produce and process. I get that. But on the plus side, the transportation costs and emissions are far less if we use the pipeline.

CO2 emissions are not the whole story anyway. You are ignoring the water pollution that happens in Canada.
No I am not ignoring it. You are ignoring that water pollution happens with other kinds of oil production as well or that all industrial activity has a certain pollution footprint.
When we finally enter the post-oil world we will still need to mine for metals and other minerals for example.

You are ignoring the fact that the destruction of Canadian ecosystems will fulminate as soon as their process have a massive pipeline to deliver its product.
Fulminate? :)
Given the existence of oil trains, I have yet to see any evidence that Keystone XL pipeline will significantly affect production rates or the way Canadian ecosystems are treated.

You are ignoring the massive water usage and pollution tar sands oil production.
No, but oil projects elsewhere use massive amounts of water as well. According to this, 0.4 bbl or water is used to produce one bbl of oil for in situ operations while 3 bbl are used when mining. Even the mining number is not that much higher that water used in Saudi Arabia where it exceeds 2 bbl of water per bbl of oil in some areas.

Mostly, you are also ignoring the opportunity costs of these projects to Canada, even before we begin to consider their impacts on the U.S. and worldwide.
Well then please give us your opportunity cost analysis for Canadian oil sands and explain to us why your conclusions do not apply to other sources of marginal oil around the world.

You have a pedestrian view of pollution that allows the oil companies to do this harm to us.
And you are singling out Canadian oil sands for no good reason.

There is a parallel between the tar sands issue and the gold strip mining issue. That is the ratio of environmental harm per unit of produced end product. Your eye is not on the ball. It is instead nervously on the accelerator pedal of your car.
Again, I am approaching this from a pragmatic point of view. We need oil. We will need oil for several more decades. Easy oil is largely gone, we will rely more and more on difficult oil going forward. We should not block this difficult oil but we should seek to minimize pollution associated with it - by for example preferring Canada to Venezuela or Nigeria (where environmental rules are less strict) and preferring pipelines to trains. All that seems like common sense to me.
Your argument is mostly one of political and conceptual inertia and is whole heartedly welcomed by Exxon, Bush, Walker, Clinton, et al., with their corporate oil affiliations that fuel their campaigns and fortunes.
What about you? How much of your retirement account is invested in oil? Do you own an oil-powered car? How about buying groceries that were delivered to your store with oil-powered trucks? Grown using oil-burning machines and with petrochemical pesticides and the like?

You do not seem to understand we are a nation that has a monumental job on its plate...getting off of fossil fuels. We have a nation whose mass media, and whole political machinery is at the beck and call of the petrochemical industry.
Except Democrats who are in the pocket of the likes of Tom Steyer.
Listen, yes we need to get off fossil fuels. But that will take time. Decades even.

You are just another voice calling for more pollution and a slowdown of our efforts to get off the oil train.
I am all for getting off the oil train onto the oil pipeline. :) You pretty much walked into that one.
No, I do not call for more pollution. But I do realize some pollution is the necessary evil.

It truly amazes me that Dubbiya was right about one thing....we are addicted to oil, no matter how destructive it is to our environment...and the future quality of life for the entire human race. Granted this pipeline may not be "game over" for us, but it is a very lousy game we are looking at in the future with more foot dragging on alternatives.
Do you really think blocking this pipeline will advance development of alternatives even one bit?

The evidence is already in on global warming. The evidence is already in on pollution of our oceans our air and our land environment. Extinctions are happening today at a rate unprecedented in human history. All I am hearing from you is petrochemical alternatives as THE ONLY WAY FORWARD. Other nations in the world are moving ahead of the U.S, in terms of energy conservation, mass transportation, electric car development, electronics, and alternative energy. We are not in a good place politically or environmentally, and this project will help fix us in our petrochemical rut. I am sure the oil industry appreciates your efforts in its behalf.
Other nations use oil as well. And Tesla is an American company. Nissan Leaves are also rather popular in my neck of the woods.
The main reason particularly European countries are "ahead of the US" is probably the gas tax which is much lower here. Also cities tend to be further apart limiting the utility of railroads (outside the NE corridor). But you know what? I would actually be in favor of increasing the gasoline tax. The way forward is certainly not to make oil transportation less efficient due to political reasons or to seek to kill oil production in a friendly, nearby, advanced country with strict environmental laws and have instead to import more of our oil from a basket-case country hostile to us (i.e. Venezuela) which requires transport by tanker ships.
 
Last edited:
And electric cars are not an answer to CO2 emissions at all. So long as we are generating any power from fossil fuels it doesn't help. If we are getting power from coal it's actually worse.
I disagree somewhat. First, it will take several decades for electric cars to become majority of cars on the roads. By that time the energy mix will look different than it is today.
Second, even today energy mix looks different depending on where you are. In metro Atlanta, Nissan Leaves are very popular (I see several on the roads almost every time I drive) and I also see Teslas from time to time and here in Georgia we make more of our electricity from nuclear than from coal. And of course, we make more from natural gas than both of these. And while coal is horrible on the energy/CO2 basis (since it's all carbon), natural gas is actually better than oil since methane only has H-C bonds whereas oil has significant number of C-C bonds as well.

Also electric car enthusiasts and early adopters are more likely than general population to use solar power to help them charge their cars.
 
And electric cars are not an answer to CO2 emissions at all. So long as we are generating any power from fossil fuels it doesn't help. If we are getting power from coal it's actually worse.
I disagree somewhat. First, it will take several decades for electric cars to become majority of cars on the roads. By that time the energy mix will look different than it is today.
Second, even today energy mix looks different depending on where you are. In metro Atlanta, Nissan Leaves are very popular (I see several on the roads almost every time I drive) and I also see Teslas from time to time and here in Georgia we make more of our electricity from nuclear than from coal. And of course, we make more from natural gas than both of these. And while coal is horrible on the energy/CO2 basis (since it's all carbon), natural gas is actually better than oil since methane only has H-C bonds whereas oil has significant number of C-C bonds as well.

Also electric car enthusiasts and early adopters are more likely than general population to use solar power to help them charge their cars.

Humans pumping carbon emissions into the air in the name of convenience - don't you just love it when some wise guy uses words that are true, but, inconvenient - forces solar heat exchange quickly off in directions not built in to the exosphere causing all sorts of bad, for humans and life in general, stuff.

Yes coal sucks. Oil sucks too. So does natural gas, so do cows manufactured for food purposes. Face it humans are deconstructing whatever organization had been established in the exosphere. Results are predictable though.

As for the pipeline. Its not a done deal. Obama may relent and request congress enact a bill when all evaluations and court cases are completed. Of course if you are a betting man ....
 
Ok, Akirk, say you are in charge. You have dictator power. What do you do?

I NEVER SAID YOU ARE IN CHARGE.

The oil companies are in charge. The problem with this pipeline is that IT WILL HAVE ITS OWN DEMANDS ON OUR ECONOMY. Refineries are the infrastructure of the oil business...that calls itself the "energy sector." Look in any Economy 101 text and learn what OPPORTUNITY COST means. We are currently paying opportunity costs within our public transportation systems due to the devotion of a great chunk of our infrastructure investment in automobile transportation in the first place. Instead of upgrading our public mass transportation systems in the 60's forward, we built at public expense these huge rush hour idling parking lots called "freeways." At the same time the old red line systems were completely eliminated. Admittedly it was an old decrepit system, but the right-of-ways were all chopped to pieces and some of these rail corridors were actually converted to bikeways. I was around when these freeways were built and can tell you they were magnificent and you could breeze through town at incredible speeds when they first opened. It seemed the world was our petroleum powered personal transportation oyster.

Just like the field of dreams however, "build it and they will come," and they came and came and came, totally jamming up these modern wonders. When they were built and people were only learning how to access them, they seemed quite wonderful. But this wonderfulness lasted only a few short years...just long enough to sell everybody cars and the cities more and more GM busses. When the system was asked to accommodate the traffic of normal commerce, it quickly proved unwieldy. Even today, when traffic is light, there are times when they are not jammed and they seem to work well...after midnight on long holiday weekends. But the business of a city is done during business hours and commute. That is what this system was expected to support. This system, expected to wisk people to work and back home has become so overloaded and under maintained, during normal commute hours, it has become an actual obstacle between a person and his work often.

There have been a lot of modifications of this system in an attempt to make an undersized system serve a purpose it actually cannot serve without increased pollution and commuter frustration. People who live near these things are always fighting expansion plans for extra lanes, toll lanes, etc. etc. etc. and none of these things do anything but increase the width of the rush hour parking lot. There was a lot of lobbying to create these modern wonders, but they have actually worked out, while it sold a lot of cars and busses, they have proven themselves conceptually flawed.

Now we are talking about a pipeline and not a freeway here, but it is the same problem. Large infrastructure projects all carry with them their own special demands on society at large and on the environment. This Keystone pipeline is envisioned as something that will increase our access to energy even though it is dirty energy and even though it has increased refinery requirements. When our economy busies itself with meeting these needs, it will not have sufficient resources to also build a parallel system...alternative energy system. In order for this pipeline to pay for itself, more petroleum products will have to be produced and most of it will be in the form of fuels....CO2 emissions.

If we assume that this pipeline is 100% safe and operates perfectly, the end product it delivers to the environment will still be excessive CO2 emissions. It will simply be another pathway and source of pollution added to the existing ones, and one that pollutes more per unit of product than existing ones. We need to take a humane world view and not feel free to flood oceanic societies and lowland seacoast cities out of existence.

There is a real desperation on the part of many including posters here to retain their current lifestyles. I think we need to begin to consider reducing our per capita consumption of energy of all kinds and need to do so in a planned cooperative long term effort. Our economy needs to serve our entire society in the long term. We really do not need any more diversions from the changes we have to make. I don't think our future should be placed in the hands of investment bankers and speculators and our infrastructure needs to serve societal needs, not the needs of greedy investors. To my thinking, Keystone is beyond the pale.

Instead of trillion dollar wars, let's see numerous hundred billion dollar projects in smart grids and alternative energy projects and conservation engineering and try to return to sanity from the Capitalistic nightmare.

Even here, amongst people who don't like what I am saying, I am seeing some of my opponents in this argument making baby steps in the right direction in my opinion. I don't post here with a lot a animus toward other posters. My posts reflect my personal thinking on these issues. I have seen remarks from Noble Savage and Derek that indicate they are thinking people and I really do not want to do anything to make them think I am attacking them. It is more a matter of policies that have consequences I think are unacceptable regarding this pipeline. I too am an avid bicyclist.:D
 
Last edited:
Ok, Akirk, say you are in charge. You have dictator power. What do you do?

I NEVER SAID YOU ARE IN CHARGE.
NOBODY SUGGESTED THAT YOU DID
The oil companies are in charge. The problem with this pipeline is that IT WILL HAVE ITS OWN DEMANDS ON OUR ECONOMY. Refineries are the infrastructure of the oil business...that calls itself the "energy sector." Look in any Economy 101 text and learn what OPPORTUNITY COST means. We are currently paying opportunity costs within our public transportation systems due to the devotion of a great chunk of our infrastructure investment in automobile transportation in the first place. Instead of upgrading our public mass transportation systems in the 60's forward, we built at public expense these huge rush hour idling parking lots called "freeways." At the same time the old red line systems were completely eliminated. Admittedly it was an old decrepit system, but the right-of-ways were all chopped to pieces and some of these rail corridors were actually converted to bikeways. I was around when these freeways were built and can tell you they were magnificent and you could breeze through town at incredible speeds when they first opened. It seemed the world was our petroleum powered personal transportation oyster.

Just like the field of dreams however, "build it and they will come," and they came and came and came, totally jamming up these modern wonders. When they were built and people were only learning how to access them, they seemed quite wonderful. But this wonderfulness lasted only a few short years...just long enough to sell everybody cars and the cities more and more GM busses. When the system was asked to accommodate the traffic of normal commerce, it quickly proved unwieldy. Even today, when traffic is light, there are times when they are not jammed and they seem to work well...after midnight on long holiday weekends. But the business of a city is done during business hours and commute. That is what this system was expected to support. This system, expected to wisk people to work and back home has become so overloaded and under maintained, during normal commute hours, it has become an actual obstacle between a person and his work often.

There have been a lot of modifications of this system in an attempt to make an undersized system serve a purpose it actually cannot serve without increased pollution and commuter frustration. People who live near these things are always fighting expansion plans for extra lanes, toll lanes, etc. etc. etc. and none of these things do anything but increase the width of the rush hour parking lot. There was a lot of lobbying to create these modern wonders, but they have actually worked out, while it sold a lot of cars and busses, they have proven themselves conceptually flawed.

Now we are talking about a pipeline and not a freeway here, but it is the same problem. Large infrastructure projects all carry with them their own special demands on society at large and on the environment. This Keystone pipeline is envisioned as something that will increase our access to energy even though it is dirty energy and even though it has increased refinery requirements. When our economy busies itself with meeting these needs, it will not have sufficient resources to also build a parallel system...alternative energy system. In order for this pipeline to pay for itself, more petroleum products will have to be produced and most of it will be in the form of fuels....CO2 emissions.

If we assume that this pipeline is 100% safe and operates perfectly, the end product it delivers to the environment will still be excessive CO2 emissions. It will simply be another pathway and source of pollution added to the existing ones, and one that pollutes more per unit of product than existing ones. We need to take a humane world view and not feel free to flood oceanic societies and lowland seacoast cities out of existence.

There is a real desperation on the part of many including posters here to retain their current lifestyles. I think we need to begin to consider reducing our per capita consumption of energy of all kinds and need to do so in a planned cooperative long term effort. Our economy needs to serve our entire society in the long term. We really do not need any more diversions from the changes we have to make. I don't think our future should be placed in the hands of investment bankers and speculators and our infrastructure needs to serve societal needs, not the needs of greedy investors. To my thinking, Keystone is beyond the pale.

Instead of trillion dollar wars, let's see numerous hundred billion dollar projects in smart grids and alternative energy projects and conservation engineering and try to return to sanity from the Capitalistic nightmare.

Even here, amongst people who don't like what I am saying, I am seeing some of my opponents in this argument making baby steps in the right direction in my opinion. I don't post here with a lot a animus toward other posters. My posts reflect my personal thinking on these issues. I have seen remarks from Noble Savage and Derek that indicate they are thinking people and I really do not want to do anything to make them think I am attacking them. It is more a matter of policies that have consequences I think are unacceptable regarding this pipeline. I too am an avid bicyclist.:D

Well it's a shame you wasted so much effort on all those words that just repeat what you have already said, because I for one was hoping to see an answer to the new and interesting question you were posed by Noble Savage.

Perhaps I can re-phrase it a little, and you can try to answer it:

We have heard your opinions about what is wrong with how things are; so IMAGINE you were in charge. IF you had the powers to simply tell everyone exactly what to do, how would you excercise those powers?

What would you do to keep the population fed, housed and healthy? IF (hypothetically) you could design the entire global energy infrastructure, what would the world look like tomorrow - bearing in mind that you can only use what we have to hand.

What would it look like a year from now - and how do you envisage us getting from here to there?

What about in ten or a hundred years?

IF you were elected dictator for life, with complete political power, what would you do?
 
arkirk, how do you explain this?

(cartoon saying "Something's just not right -- our air is clean, our water is pure, we all get plenty of exercise, everything we eat is organic and free-range, and yet nobody lives past thirty." from http://i.imgur.com/ogOKg6a.gif)

Based on reading your posts, it seems like the kind of society you envision
That's from lack of modern medicine and sanitation and the like. Axulus, would you enjoy:
  • Breathing smoggy air? Like what Beijing often gets.
  • Drinking water from just downstream of industrial-effluent discharges?
  • Getting no exercise?
  • Only eating very fatty meat?
Should pollution-control efforts and low-pollution energy sources be punitively taxed or outlawed? Because they would create the moral evil of a greenie world. Even if some alternatives undersell fossil fuels. Yes, undersell them as wind and solar are starting to do.

All you fossil-fuel defenders, here is what you can do as renewable electricity generation advances. Go off-grid. Get yourself a diesel generator and a coal furnace. See if you can get diesel fuel refined from Texas crude oil and coal from West Virginia. What the fossil-fuel equivalent of a gourmand might do.
 
I NEVER SAID YOU ARE IN CHARGE.
NOBODY SUGGESTED THAT YOU DID
The oil companies are in charge. The problem with this pipeline is that IT WILL HAVE ITS OWN DEMANDS ON OUR ECONOMY. Refineries are the infrastructure of the oil business...that calls itself the "energy sector." Look in any Economy 101 text and learn what OPPORTUNITY COST means. We are currently paying opportunity costs within our public transportation systems due to the devotion of a great chunk of our infrastructure investment in automobile transportation in the first place. Instead of upgrading our public mass transportation systems in the 60's forward, we built at public expense these huge rush hour idling parking lots called "freeways." At the same time the old red line systems were completely eliminated. Admittedly it was an old decrepit system, but the right-of-ways were all chopped to pieces and some of these rail corridors were actually converted to bikeways. I was around when these freeways were built and can tell you they were magnificent and you could breeze through town at incredible speeds when they first opened. It seemed the world was our petroleum powered personal transportation oyster.

Just like the field of dreams however, "build it and they will come," and they came and came and came, totally jamming up these modern wonders. When they were built and people were only learning how to access them, they seemed quite wonderful. But this wonderfulness lasted only a few short years...just long enough to sell everybody cars and the cities more and more GM busses. When the system was asked to accommodate the traffic of normal commerce, it quickly proved unwieldy. Even today, when traffic is light, there are times when they are not jammed and they seem to work well...after midnight on long holiday weekends. But the business of a city is done during business hours and commute. That is what this system was expected to support. This system, expected to wisk people to work and back home has become so overloaded and under maintained, during normal commute hours, it has become an actual obstacle between a person and his work often.

There have been a lot of modifications of this system in an attempt to make an undersized system serve a purpose it actually cannot serve without increased pollution and commuter frustration. People who live near these things are always fighting expansion plans for extra lanes, toll lanes, etc. etc. etc. and none of these things do anything but increase the width of the rush hour parking lot. There was a lot of lobbying to create these modern wonders, but they have actually worked out, while it sold a lot of cars and busses, they have proven themselves conceptually flawed.

Now we are talking about a pipeline and not a freeway here, but it is the same problem. Large infrastructure projects all carry with them their own special demands on society at large and on the environment. This Keystone pipeline is envisioned as something that will increase our access to energy even though it is dirty energy and even though it has increased refinery requirements. When our economy busies itself with meeting these needs, it will not have sufficient resources to also build a parallel system...alternative energy system. In order for this pipeline to pay for itself, more petroleum products will have to be produced and most of it will be in the form of fuels....CO2 emissions.

If we assume that this pipeline is 100% safe and operates perfectly, the end product it delivers to the environment will still be excessive CO2 emissions. It will simply be another pathway and source of pollution added to the existing ones, and one that pollutes more per unit of product than existing ones. We need to take a humane world view and not feel free to flood oceanic societies and lowland seacoast cities out of existence.

There is a real desperation on the part of many including posters here to retain their current lifestyles. I think we need to begin to consider reducing our per capita consumption of energy of all kinds and need to do so in a planned cooperative long term effort. Our economy needs to serve our entire society in the long term. We really do not need any more diversions from the changes we have to make. I don't think our future should be placed in the hands of investment bankers and speculators and our infrastructure needs to serve societal needs, not the needs of greedy investors. To my thinking, Keystone is beyond the pale.

Instead of trillion dollar wars, let's see numerous hundred billion dollar projects in smart grids and alternative energy projects and conservation engineering and try to return to sanity from the Capitalistic nightmare.

Even here, amongst people who don't like what I am saying, I am seeing some of my opponents in this argument making baby steps in the right direction in my opinion. I don't post here with a lot a animus toward other posters. My posts reflect my personal thinking on these issues. I have seen remarks from Noble Savage and Derek that indicate they are thinking people and I really do not want to do anything to make them think I am attacking them. It is more a matter of policies that have consequences I think are unacceptable regarding this pipeline. I too am an avid bicyclist.:D

Well it's a shame you wasted so much effort on all those words that just repeat what you have already said, because I for one was hoping to see an answer to the new and interesting question you were posed by Noble Savage.

Perhaps I can re-phrase it a little, and you can try to answer it:

We have heard your opinions about what is wrong with how things are; so IMAGINE you were in charge. IF you had the powers to simply tell everyone exactly what to do, how would you excercise those powers?

What would you do to keep the population fed, housed and healthy? IF (hypothetically) you could design the entire global energy infrastructure, what would the world look like tomorrow - bearing in mind that you can only use what we have to hand.

What would it look like a year from now - and how do you envisage us getting from here to there?

What about in ten or a hundred years?

IF you were elected dictator for life, with complete political power, what would you do?

You don't seem to be getting it. I am not a dictator personality. Also, the answer to this problem is cooperation, not dictation. This pipeline is the way of the dictator. We do not and probably will not ever have a system where some character named either arkirk or noble or derek can exercise the kind of power and knowledge to dictate independently what everybody should do. Even small matters are settled in a democracy by an incredibly large amount of discussion. Today, we have oligarchs exercising the kind of power within their organizations that your suggested thought experiment suggests and we get environmentally and socially irresponsible projects like Keystone what was routed around and not through regular environmental review on the basis of its international scope. There is no EIR on this project. Our State Dept. actually had investors in the project. How objective do you think they are going to be?

This project is precisely the product of the dictation of a very few very heavily invested oligarchs. This is not a people's project. It has no obligation to sell the oil in the U.S. but probably would like to see it processed here rather than in Canada. You were told what I would want to see happen, with the clear understanding that it is not in my power to fully plan these thing and dictate their particulars. You think of this as a battle of of a few intellects and it is a matter of someone's personal feeling about this. It really isn't that way at all.

In the end, most people want to do the right thing, but our economic and political system has people whose fortunes are dependent on control of energy resources and petrochemical resources are in too few hands and their control of everything from information to in fact what energy can be used for is overwhelming. Our conceptualization of our needs is being engineered by an advertising industry in their employ. They sold us the cars we used to fill up the freeway...and once we bought the cars and obligations to commute, we sold ourselves our need for the oil. I feel a lot of your frightened remarks are based on irrational connection in your mind between satisfactory living conditions and the petrochemical industry. There other ways to obtain most of the things we currently make out of oil. We need more research and development of processes that are kinder to our environment, not new and innovative ways to increase the CO2 in our atmosphere.

Currently the prices of oil and petroleum products are being heavily manipulated by the oil industry sectors (not all of which support Keystone) to maximize the profits they can wring from resources that by all rights belong to the people anyway and this manipulation is in part responsible for the constipated situation we are seeing in our economy. Once tooling exists, more and more of our transportation will be electric and if these things (alternative energy and electrification of things now powered by polluting oil and coal) are pursued with the same vigor as we saw building the dams and public projects of the 40's, our energy profile could shift much more rapidly that it has so far. That shift in our energy profile would result in decreases in the need and usage of petrochemicals.

This is not dictatable to people however. We cannot even get people to stop killing each other in the streets or banks to quit chiseling people over housing. You see a dictator cannot possibly have a broad enough view to dictate or even plan any major social change. I am aware of this and you are too, so stop trying to demand all the answers to our problems at once.
quote-every-time-i-see-an-adult-on-a-bicycle-i-no-longer-despair-for-the-future-of-the-human-rac.jpg
 
NOBODY SUGGESTED THAT YOU DID
The oil companies are in charge. The problem with this pipeline is that IT WILL HAVE ITS OWN DEMANDS ON OUR ECONOMY. Refineries are the infrastructure of the oil business...that calls itself the "energy sector." Look in any Economy 101 text and learn what OPPORTUNITY COST means. We are currently paying opportunity costs within our public transportation systems due to the devotion of a great chunk of our infrastructure investment in automobile transportation in the first place. Instead of upgrading our public mass transportation systems in the 60's forward, we built at public expense these huge rush hour idling parking lots called "freeways." At the same time the old red line systems were completely eliminated. Admittedly it was an old decrepit system, but the right-of-ways were all chopped to pieces and some of these rail corridors were actually converted to bikeways. I was around when these freeways were built and can tell you they were magnificent and you could breeze through town at incredible speeds when they first opened. It seemed the world was our petroleum powered personal transportation oyster.

Just like the field of dreams however, "build it and they will come," and they came and came and came, totally jamming up these modern wonders. When they were built and people were only learning how to access them, they seemed quite wonderful. But this wonderfulness lasted only a few short years...just long enough to sell everybody cars and the cities more and more GM busses. When the system was asked to accommodate the traffic of normal commerce, it quickly proved unwieldy. Even today, when traffic is light, there are times when they are not jammed and they seem to work well...after midnight on long holiday weekends. But the business of a city is done during business hours and commute. That is what this system was expected to support. This system, expected to wisk people to work and back home has become so overloaded and under maintained, during normal commute hours, it has become an actual obstacle between a person and his work often.

There have been a lot of modifications of this system in an attempt to make an undersized system serve a purpose it actually cannot serve without increased pollution and commuter frustration. People who live near these things are always fighting expansion plans for extra lanes, toll lanes, etc. etc. etc. and none of these things do anything but increase the width of the rush hour parking lot. There was a lot of lobbying to create these modern wonders, but they have actually worked out, while it sold a lot of cars and busses, they have proven themselves conceptually flawed.

Now we are talking about a pipeline and not a freeway here, but it is the same problem. Large infrastructure projects all carry with them their own special demands on society at large and on the environment. This Keystone pipeline is envisioned as something that will increase our access to energy even though it is dirty energy and even though it has increased refinery requirements. When our economy busies itself with meeting these needs, it will not have sufficient resources to also build a parallel system...alternative energy system. In order for this pipeline to pay for itself, more petroleum products will have to be produced and most of it will be in the form of fuels....CO2 emissions.

If we assume that this pipeline is 100% safe and operates perfectly, the end product it delivers to the environment will still be excessive CO2 emissions. It will simply be another pathway and source of pollution added to the existing ones, and one that pollutes more per unit of product than existing ones. We need to take a humane world view and not feel free to flood oceanic societies and lowland seacoast cities out of existence.

There is a real desperation on the part of many including posters here to retain their current lifestyles. I think we need to begin to consider reducing our per capita consumption of energy of all kinds and need to do so in a planned cooperative long term effort. Our economy needs to serve our entire society in the long term. We really do not need any more diversions from the changes we have to make. I don't think our future should be placed in the hands of investment bankers and speculators and our infrastructure needs to serve societal needs, not the needs of greedy investors. To my thinking, Keystone is beyond the pale.

Instead of trillion dollar wars, let's see numerous hundred billion dollar projects in smart grids and alternative energy projects and conservation engineering and try to return to sanity from the Capitalistic nightmare.

Even here, amongst people who don't like what I am saying, I am seeing some of my opponents in this argument making baby steps in the right direction in my opinion. I don't post here with a lot a animus toward other posters. My posts reflect my personal thinking on these issues. I have seen remarks from Noble Savage and Derek that indicate they are thinking people and I really do not want to do anything to make them think I am attacking them. It is more a matter of policies that have consequences I think are unacceptable regarding this pipeline. I too am an avid bicyclist.:D

Well it's a shame you wasted so much effort on all those words that just repeat what you have already said, because I for one was hoping to see an answer to the new and interesting question you were posed by Noble Savage.

Perhaps I can re-phrase it a little, and you can try to answer it:

We have heard your opinions about what is wrong with how things are; so IMAGINE you were in charge. IF you had the powers to simply tell everyone exactly what to do, how would you excercise those powers?

What would you do to keep the population fed, housed and healthy? IF (hypothetically) you could design the entire global energy infrastructure, what would the world look like tomorrow - bearing in mind that you can only use what we have to hand.

What would it look like a year from now - and how do you envisage us getting from here to there?

What about in ten or a hundred years?

IF you were elected dictator for life, with complete political power, what would you do?

You don't seem to be getting it. I am not a dictator personality. Also, the answer to this problem is cooperation, not dictation. This pipeline is the way of the dictator. We do not and probably will not ever have a system where some character named either arkirk or noble or derek can exercise the kind of power and knowledge to dictate independently what everybody should do. Even small matters are settled in a democracy by an incredibly large amount of discussion. Today, we have oligarchs exercising the kind of power within their organizations that your suggested thought experiment suggests and we get environmentally and socially irresponsible projects like Keystone what was routed around and not through regular environmental review on the basis of its international scope. There is no EIR on this project. Our State Dept. actually had investors in the project. How objective do you think they are going to be?

This project is precisely the product of the dictation of a very few very heavily invested oligarchs. This is not a people's project. It has no obligation to sell the oil in the U.S. but probably would like to see it processed here rather than in Canada. You were told what I would want to see happen, with the clear understanding that it is not in my power to fully plan these thing and dictate their particulars. You think of this as a battle of of a few intellects and it is a matter of someone's personal feeling about this. It really isn't that way at all.

In the end, most people want to do the right thing, but our economic and political system has people whose fortunes are dependent on control of energy resources and petrochemical resources are in too few hands and their control of everything from information to in fact what energy can be used for is overwhelming. Our conceptualization of our needs is being engineered by an advertising industry in their employ. They sold us the cars we used to fill up the freeway...and once we bought the cars and obligations to commute, we sold ourselves our need for the oil. I feel a lot of your frightened remarks are based on irrational connection in your mind between satisfactory living conditions and the petrochemical industry. There other ways to obtain most of the things we currently make out of oil. We need more research and development of processes that are kinder to our environment, not new and innovative ways to increase the CO2 in our atmosphere.

Currently the prices of oil and petroleum products are being heavily manipulated by the oil industry sectors (not all of which support Keystone) to maximize the profits they can wring from resources that by all rights belong to the people anyway and this manipulation is in part responsible for the constipated situation we are seeing in our economy. Once tooling exists, more and more of our transportation will be electric and if these things (alternative energy and electrification of things now powered by polluting oil and coal) are pursued with the same vigor as we saw building the dams and public projects of the 40's, our energy profile could shift much more rapidly that it has so far. That shift in our energy profile would result in decreases in the need and usage of petrochemicals.

This is not dictatable to people however. We cannot even get people to stop killing each other in the streets or banks to quit chiseling people over housing. You see a dictator cannot possibly have a broad enough view to dictate or even plan any major social change. I am aware of this and you are too, so stop trying to demand all the answers to our problems at once.
View attachment 2385

So your position is that people should not be told what to do, but should instead do what they collectively think is best; and your complaint is that they are doing it wrong?

That's a solid and practical basis for improving the world then. :rolleyesa:
 
And electric cars are not an answer to CO2 emissions at all. So long as we are generating any power from fossil fuels it doesn't help. If we are getting power from coal it's actually worse.
I disagree somewhat. First, it will take several decades for electric cars to become majority of cars on the roads. By that time the energy mix will look different than it is today.
Second, even today energy mix looks different depending on where you are. In metro Atlanta, Nissan Leaves are very popular (I see several on the roads almost every time I drive) and I also see Teslas from time to time and here in Georgia we make more of our electricity from nuclear than from coal. And of course, we make more from natural gas than both of these. And while coal is horrible on the energy/CO2 basis (since it's all carbon), natural gas is actually better than oil since methane only has H-C bonds whereas oil has significant number of C-C bonds as well.

Also electric car enthusiasts and early adopters are more likely than general population to use solar power to help them charge their cars.

Power can be moved around. So long as there are any operating coal plants on the grid electric cars emit more CO2 than gasoline cars.
 
Back
Top Bottom