Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[TomC]

He most certainly has dismissed that Gazan children are starving. He most certainly has denied that the IDF has killed civilians. FFS, he claims that even when the IDF admits to it that they are mistaken.

Which “it” do you mean?

Did you read anything else in my post?
Tom

Yes. Now provide evidence you read mine (and yours for that matter) and answer the question.

Where did Loren dismiss that Gazans are starving?
That's your assertion.
Provide evidence.
Tom

From post 8277 in this thread

“You don't have to be skeletal to look underweight. To have a few starving children in a society that looks like it has enough to eat either means they can't eat or they aren't being permitted food.”


From post 8292 in this thread
"The malnourished kids--it has never been established that it's not medical cases."

From post 7867 in this thread

“We have a baby with a formula problem--the others in the picture don't look like the baby. Like the kid before they paraded in front of the cameras they find someone with medical issues and pretend they are evidence of famine."

None of those support your assertion.
Oh well, as usual.
Tom

 

[Swammerdami]

It's tiresome when otherwise-intelligent people can't think beyond

"Netanyahu and Trump is teh good guys. Everybody else is teh evil."​

The history of US-Iran relations gives a shameful look at American imperialism and hypocrisy.

In 1951 the respected intellectual Mohammad Mosaddegh was elected Prime Minister of Iran; he pushed for democratic reforms such as a social security system. In 1953 the CIA and MI6 organized a coup d'etat, primarily to protect the profits of a major British petroleum company. The coup installed the despicable dictator Reza Pahlavi. During Pahlavi's rule, the US supplied Iran with much material and expertise for a nuclear program. Pahlavi, in effect an Anglo-American puppet, was overthrown in 1979 and soon the US was providing arms and intelligence to Saddam Hussein and encouraging him to wage war on Iran.

Despite all this, the Iranian people maintained friendship for the American people, a friendship that could have been nurtured by the US but wasn't. The US treats Saudi Arabia -- now led by the despicable MBS -- as a close ally, while rebuffing Iran's advances and insisting that Iran is an evil enemy.

The production of weapons grade uranium is a clear indication of intent. There are very few non-military situations where it is used. The other nations you mention are not producing HEU.

IIUC it is not disputed that Iran hopes to build nuclear weapons, or at least present that as a threat. Can one blame them? They are bitterly hated by Israel and the US, both nuclear powers.

What makes Iran's nuclear program especially sad is that they had agreed to stop it, in a 2015 agreement signed by seven major countries and the EU:

Under the JCPOA, Iran agreed to constrain its nuclear program by constraining fuel cycle activities that could lead to the production of weapons-grade uranium or plutonium. The JCPOA restricted the number and type of centrifuges in operation, the level of uranium enrichment, and the size of Iran's enriched uranium stockpile. Key facilities at Fordow, Natanz and Arak were repurposed for civilian uses such as medical and industrial research. Iran agreed to accept more intrusive IAEA monitoring measures of its fuel-cycle related activities. In exchange for complying with these restrictions, Iran received relief from nuclear-related sanctions imposed by the United Nations, the EU, and the United States, but many U.S. sanctions unrelated to the nuclear issue—targeting Iran's missile program, support for militant groups, and human rights record—remained in place, limiting the economic effect of sanctions relief. The agreement also set a timetable to lift the UN arms embargo, contingent on Iran’s continued compliance with civilian nuclear commitments.

The agreement took effect on 20 January 2016. It was criticized and opposed by Israel, Saudi Arabia, Iranian principlists, and some in the United States.

This happy progress against Iran's nuclear program was undone by ... Guess who?

The United States withdrew from the pact in 2018, imposing sanctions under its maximum pressure campaign. The sanctions applied to all countries and companies doing business with Iran and cut it off from the international financial system, rendering the nuclear deal's economic provisions null.

 

[Swammerdami]

@Loren Pechtel -- -- I see you are still posting but you seem to be unable to respond to my questions and comments. I have tried to correct several of your confusions, but as a minimum I would appreciate an answer to what seems like a simple question:

Let me repeat the question you are unwilling to answer:
Have you ever told us how you would feel if an Army of Muslims arrived in your town with superior force, and kicked you out of your home so they could live there?

 

[pood]

You make reference to "atrocity"--but there has been only one action in this war that would reasonably be describe as an atrocity: 10/7.

 

[laughing dog]

He most certainly has dismissed that Gazan children are starving. He most certainly has denied that the IDF has killed civilians. FFS, he claims that even when the IDF admits to it that they are mistaken.

Which “it” do you mean?

Did you read anything else in my post?
Tom

Yes. Now provide evidence you read mine (and yours for that matter) and answer the question.

Where did Loren dismiss that Gazans are starving?
That's your assertion.
Provide evidence.
Tom

From post 8277 in this thread

“You don't have to be skeletal to look underweight. To have a few starving children in a society that looks like it has enough to eat either means they can't eat or they aren't being permitted food.”


From post 8292 in this thread
"The malnourished kids--it has never been established that it's not medical cases."

From post 7867 in this thread

“We have a baby with a formula problem--the others in the picture don't look like the baby. Like the kid before they paraded in front of the cameras they find someone with medical issues and pretend they are evidence of famine."

None of those support your assertion.
Oh well, as usual.
Tom

Prove it using reason.

 

[TomC]

Prove it using reason.

Prove what?
That Loren didn't say or claim the things you assert?

You're making the assertions, and you didn't back them up.
Tom

 

[ZiprHead]

Lauren, the irony in your response is almost impressive. You accuse me of proposing “magical answers,” then turn around and suggest that indefinite military rule, mass civilian casualties, and open-ended occupation somehow lead to peace. That’s not realism. That’s delusion weaponized.

You continue to commit exactly the same mistake.

You continue to present evidence that the current situation is very ugly, and that somehow proves there's a better answer. But it doesn't prove anything.

You present a narrative that the current situation is very ugly but unavoidable, so there are no possible better choices. But that doesn’t prove anything.

You are making the assertion that there are better choices. How about pointing to some professional who has laid out a better option? Not merely asserted that better options exist. I find the silence deafening--lots of professionals out there who are hostile to Israel, none have presented a better plan.

I've already posted the United States' military's rules of engagement.

 

[laughing dog]

Prove it using reason.

Prove what?
That Loren didn't say or claim the things you assert?

You're making the assertions, and you didn't back them up.
Tom

You are handwaving your denial. That is not proving it with reason.

Try explaining why you think each one of those statements does not back up my assertion that LP denied there were starving children.

Without a reasoned rational, your denial cannot be taken seriously.

 

[DrZoidberg]

The problem is your answers assume the Palestinians are after peace.

Northern Ireland--ended when we got serious about stopping the money.

No. Northern Ireland ended because Ireland got their shit together and became economically prosperous.

The Irish freedom fighters became distracted by paying for overpriced mortages and Playstations.

By the time the money was stopped, the fight had already gone out of them.

This is probably why Hamas wrecked the Gaza economy. To make them dependent on Iranian handouts, and giving the Palestinians in Gaza few opportunities other than becoming fighters for them. It's fits their cruel and cynical methods of operating.

South Africa--worse than it ever was under the Apartheid regime. They most clearly stepped from the frying pan to the fire. They threw off a small white boot in favor of a giant black boot. Same thing happened in Zimbabwe. When we were there it wasn't unsafe (so long as you stayed away from the minefields), but the fact it was heading into the shitter was apparent without even leaving the airport. And around the world in general the most prized currency was the US$--but in Africa it was the South African Rand (whose symbol I do not recall.)

Or Nigeria. An apartheid regime in operation at the same time as apartheid in South Africa. But because it was blacks opressing blacks, the western wokes got confused and just ignored it.

Muslims opressing Muslims is not a juicy story. Ie Hamas opressing Palestinians. But the Jews doing it is. Even though they have been bending over backwards to accomodate the Palestinians.

 

[Gospel]

In the early to mid-1970s, Iran supplied a significant portion of Israel’s oil, around 30%, through the Eilat–Ashkelon pipeline, a joint venture between the two countries. At the time, Iran was primarily focused on regional threats like Iraq and the Soviet Union. Groups like Hezbollah didn’t even exist yet. Then the United States backed a coup that overthrew Iran’s democratically elected leader and propped up a deeply unpopular Shah. His shitty rule sparked the 1979 revolution, which severed ties with Israel and changed Iran’s foreign policy. But today, you still hear people, repeating simplistic talking points, claiming that Iran started it like they're still on a kindergarten playground. They ignore the complex history of shifting alliances, Western intervention, and regional politics because they are too preoccupied with jerking themselves off to climax over a false sense of self riotousness.

Edit: Yes I meant self riotousness.

 

[Gospel]

No. Northern Ireland ended because Ireland got their shit together and became economically prosperous.

The Irish freedom fighters became distracted by paying for overpriced mortages and Playstations.

By the time the money was stopped, the fight had already gone out of them.

This is probably why Hamas wrecked the Gaza economy. To make them dependent on Iranian handouts, and giving the Palestinians in Gaza few opportunities other than becoming fighters for them. It's fits their cruel and cynical methods of operating.

That take is impressively dumb, more snark than substance, just like your lifestyle.

Let’s get something straight: peace in Northern Ireland didn’t come from people getting distracted by mortgages and PlayStations. It came after decades of bloodshed, political negotiation, mutual concessions, and international mediation, ultimately leading to the Good Friday Agreement. Economic growth supported the peace process, but it sure as hell wasn’t the cause. Reducing it to “they got rich and forgot the struggle” is lazy, revisionist garbage that only someone terminally unserious would push.

Now, onto your other gem: the idea that Hamas deliberately tanked Gaza’s economy to make Palestinians dependent on Iran. Is that believable? Maybe, if you're already locked into cartoon villain logic. But it’s still pure speculation, and I know how much you hate hearing that. Don’t worry, you can always curl up in your security blanket, woven from the flesh of the Israeli people you love to hide behind. Real brave, champ.

Gaza’s collapse is the result of overlapping crises: Israel’s blockade, repeated wars, massive infrastructure damage, and yeah, Hamas’s own clown-show of mismanagement (if I can even call it “management,” considering they rule by force). Pretending this was some 4D chess move by Hamas ignores the fact that external strangulation, not internal sabotage, has been the primary driver of Gaza’s suffering.

So if you're going to make comparisons, do better. Ground them in actual history, not conspiracy brainrot and flippant Reddit-tier hot takes. The real world doesn't work like your detachment fantasyland, buddy. Time to grow up.

 

[Gospel]

The problem is your answers assume the Palestinians are after peace.

Northern Ireland--ended when we got serious about stopping the money.

No. Northern Ireland ended because Ireland got their shit together and became economically prosperous.

The Irish freedom fighters became distracted by paying for overpriced mortages and Playstations.

By the time the money was stopped, the fight had already gone out of them.

This is probably why Hamas wrecked the Gaza economy. To make them dependent on Iranian handouts, and giving the Palestinians in Gaza few opportunities other than becoming fighters for them. It's fits their cruel and cynical methods of operating.

South Africa--worse than it ever was under the Apartheid regime. They most clearly stepped from the frying pan to the fire. They threw off a small white boot in favor of a giant black boot. Same thing happened in Zimbabwe. When we were there it wasn't unsafe (so long as you stayed away from the minefields), but the fact it was heading into the shitter was apparent without even leaving the airport. And around the world in general the most prized currency was the US$--but in Africa it was the South African Rand (whose symbol I do not recall.)

Or Nigeria. An apartheid regime in operation at the same time as apartheid in South Africa. But because it was blacks opressing blacks, the western wokes got confused and just ignored it.

Muslims opressing Muslims is not a juicy story. Ie Hamas opressing Palestinians. But the Jews doing it is. Even though they have been bending over backwards to accomodate the Palestinians.

Loren, your comment reads like nostalgia for colonial rule. Claiming South Africa was “better under apartheid” because post-apartheid governments have struggled is like saying a patient was healthier before surgery because they’re still in recovery. These countries didn’t fail because of Black leadership, they were handed hella broken systems after centuries of exploitation. That’s not stepping from a small boot to a bigger one, it’s trying to walk after being trampled.

And DrZoidberg, yes, Hamas absolutely oppresses Palestinians. That’s an undisputable fact. But that doesn’t excuse the dehumanizing garbage you post.

Anyway, you two should really get a room, preferably at a museum of colonial nostalgia, right between the apartheid gift shop and the “blame the oppressed” exhibit.

 

[Gospel]

Why would he “point out” the unobvious? Israel’s suffering under Iran attack isn’t even a fraction of what London endured, and besides, he started this war.

Just because the Ayatollah regime used vassals such as Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis to attack Israel does not mean that they did not start the war against Israel.

I agree, but that’s the kind of statement you could apply to just about any nation. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Given the broader sweep of history, how do you possibly land on Iran as the one who started this war?

The first shot was by Iran, in retaliation for a strike in Syria. Remember it? Caused a ruckus because they hit an embassy--but, once again, a situation where the usual immunities do not apply.

Oh right, and according to the Book of Genesis, the world was created in 2024 as well.

 

[laughing dog]

Muslims opressing Muslims is not a juicy story. Ie Hamas opressing Palestinians. But the Jews doing it is. Even though they have been bending over backwards to accomodate the Palestinians.

By slowly encroaching on their on land and encouraging settler violence in the West Bank, torturing detainees, and dealing death and destruction to civilians in Gaza? Or is that being “super nice”?

 

[Gospel]

Neither Israel nor the United States recognizes Hamas as a legitimate government, yet people like TomC, DrZoidberg, and Loren are effectively legitimizing Hamas, by treating them as the sole voice or representative of all Palestinians. Meanwhile, Israel itself has said it wants to avoid civilian casualties and holds Hamas, not the people, responsible.

So really, who’s undermining Israel’s stated position here? Because it sure looks like it’s not me.

 

[Gospel]

Muslims opressing Muslims is not a juicy story. Ie Hamas opressing Palestinians. But the Jews doing it is. Even though they have been bending over backwards to accomodate the Palestinians.

By slowly encroaching on their on land and encouraging settler violence in the West Bank, torturing detainees, and dealing death and destruction to civilians in Gaza? Or is that being “super nice”?

At this point, I expect nothing more than the usual, hiding behind the Israeli flag. That’s all they’ve ever brought to the discussion, and frankly, it's all they seem capable of.

 

[Gospel]

@Loren Pechtel -- -- I see you are still posting but you seem to be unable to respond to my questions and comments. I have tried to correct several of your confusions, but as a minimum I would appreciate an answer to what seems like a simple question:

Let me repeat the question you are unwilling to answer:
Have you ever told us how you would feel if an Army of Muslims arrived in your town with superior force, and kicked you out of your home so they could live there?

 

[pood]

 

[DrZoidberg]

Muslims opressing Muslims is not a juicy story. Ie Hamas opressing Palestinians. But the Jews doing it is. Even though they have been bending over backwards to accomodate the Palestinians.

By slowly encroaching on their on land and encouraging settler violence in the West Bank, torturing detainees, and dealing death and destruction to civilians in Gaza? Or is that being “super nice”?

You need to separate what the government does and what the settler (cunts) do.

Its also important to understand that the Palestinians are also violent towards the settlers

The method is that the settlers buy land from impoverished Palestinians. This is using private American money.

Its very hard for the Israeli government to stop. If they want a modern state where people are equal under the law.

Saying that the Israeli government is encouraging settler violence is just good ole' antisemitic racism. They don't. And that’s a silly accusation.

What settlers do is that they stir up trouble and then come running to the IDF when the Palestinians retaliate. I do not envy the IDF's mission. It must be an impossible situation to police

Israel doesn't torture detainees. I think you have them confused with Hamas?

What Israel does is mass arrests of (allegedly) violent Palestinians who are kept locked up without trials or oversight. That is genuinely bad and something Israel should stop. The reason they do it is the scale of attacks. The Palestinians are very violent. It just goes on and on. They also fight eachother.

The sheer scale of Palestinian violence makes this a challenge to manage in accordance with the rule of law. But they of course should. Its fundamental for a modern democratic state.

I also understand this from the Israeli perspective. The average Israeli is just so fucking sick of the pervasive Palestinian violence. Just going out at night for drinks in Israeli proper is an adventure. I understand if they have had enough of it and just want them locked up.

While I understand it I don't condone it.

BTW, Palestinians also think Palestinian violence is a problem

Which can be contrasted with Egypt. Also Muslim. Has so little violence sociologists struggle with explaining why

 

[Gospel]

Deduction: Ah, yes, classic rhetorical misdirection. What we have here is a clumsy sleight of hand:

• A few carefully placed truths to feign balance,
• Strategically vague distinctions to deflect institutional blame,
• A sprinkle of moral fatigue to justify systemic repression,
• And a predictable pivot: from "some settlers are bad" to "Palestinians are just violent."

It’s a polished effort to look fair while subtly normalizing apartheid-level control, wrapped in concern, but stitched together with denial.

Counterplay: Expose the game. Strip out the moral camouflage and hold the logic to the light:

If you truly believe Israel is a modern democracy, then demand it act like one, even under pressure. Excusing indefinite detention, unequal enforcement, or settler violence simply because ‘it’s hard’ is resignation wrapped in nationalism.

Then, add the finishing cut:

And if criticizing a government’s actions qualifies as antisemitism, then apparently the Israeli Supreme Court is antisemitic too, because they’ve condemned these same policies more than once.