Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Loren Pechtel]

And you have fallen for the Hamas line. "Amount of civilian suffering" as a yardstick is surrender to whoever is the most evil. Make your own people suffer to deceive the world is right out of the playbook.

You're misrepresenting the argument. As usual. Acknowledging the scale of civilian suffering doesn't mean falling for Hamas propaganda, it means recognizing the real-world consequences of military actions. The idea that prioritizing civilian lives is "surrender" is all in your imagination.

Yes, avoiding civilian casualties does make it harder to root out Hamas, but that’s the burden of fighting asymmetric warfare while claiming moral high ground. You can wage war with restraint without falling for your enemy's narrative. Pretending those goals are mutually exclusive is how atrocities get normalized.

Completely nonresponsive.

Goodhart's law. In practice you reward bad acts on the part of Hamas.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Hamas manipulates the media for their benefit? No. Never.

Oh well. Kill them all then.

I think that is what Israel is doing. And not to belabour the point, I think it is necessary. If Hamas isn't destroyed they're going to take the rest of the Palestinians with them. I'd rather as few Palestinians as possible died. And the only way to achieve that, I think, is to exterminate Hamas. Sooner is better

Let me get this straight, when you express concern for Palestinian civilians, it's compassion. But when I do it, it's falling for Hamas propaganda? That is precisely what I've been saying all along!!

We don't like what's happening one bit.

It's just we don't fall for the propaganda blaming Israel. Hamas engineered this, they intended mass civilian casualties. It's the biggest weapon they have.

 

[Arctish]

Saying the barriers were built in response to suicide bombings is just plain ignorant. Those attacks happened more than 20 years after the first 60 km of fencing went up, and more than 40 years after Gazans attempting to return to their former homes or harvest food from their farms were routinely shot.

All you are showing it that it wasn't perfect.

And while I'm not aware of the specifics you're referring to about harvesting,

And right here you prove beyond a reasonable doubt you didn't read the linked article and don't have a frigging clue what is being referenced, but you're more than willing to bullshit and bluster about it.

Learn some history, Loren.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

According to the Reuters article, the Gaza health ministry only counts actual bodies. But there are probably thousands more buried in the rubble of thousands of bombed buildings.

Have you not been paying attention?

The "Gaza Health Ministry" (Hamas) supposedly counted bodies. But it counted 4k that certainly didn't exist. Therefore they didn't count bodies. And everyone else just repeats the number, failing to note the bad data proves they are not checking.

 

[Gospel]

And you have fallen for the Hamas line. "Amount of civilian suffering" as a yardstick is surrender to whoever is the most evil. Make your own people suffer to deceive the world is right out of the playbook.

You're misrepresenting the argument. As usual. Acknowledging the scale of civilian suffering doesn't mean falling for Hamas propaganda, it means recognizing the real-world consequences of military actions. The idea that prioritizing civilian lives is "surrender" is all in your imagination.

Yes, avoiding civilian casualties does make it harder to root out Hamas, but that’s the burden of fighting asymmetric warfare while claiming moral high ground. You can wage war with restraint without falling for your enemy's narrative. Pretending those goals are mutually exclusive is how atrocities get normalized.

Completely nonresponsive.

Goodhart's law. In practice you reward bad acts on the part of Hamas.

Loren, quoting Goodhart’s Law like it's some mic-drop moment doesn’t change the reality on the ground, it just gives your apathy a vocabulary. Civilian suffering isn’t a manipulated metric; it’s a moral alarm. The idea that we should ignore that alarm because “bad people might exploit it” is the same logic white supremacists use when they dismiss racism statistics by saying, “Well, anyone can fake oppression for attention.” It’s a way to invalidate real harm by accusing the harmed of weaponizing their pain.

If someone burns down your house, and you scream for help, this line of thinking would say, “They’re just using their victimhood to control the narrative.” That’s not analysis, that’s deflection. You don’t get to pretend to care about truth and justice while treating actual human lives as disposable noise in your ideological spreadsheet.

 

[Gospel]

It’s hard to believe IIDB allows someone openly echoing white supremacist rhetoric to remain on their staff.

 

[Gospel]

That logic, claiming oppressed groups exaggerate or fabricate their pain for attention, is literally a hallmark of white supremacist rhetoric. It’s been used to dismiss civil rights claims for decades. Just because it’s dressed up in different language doesn’t make it any less poisonous.

 

[Gospel]

Hamas manipulates the media for their benefit? No. Never.

Oh well. Kill them all then.

I think that is what Israel is doing. And not to belabour the point, I think it is necessary. If Hamas isn't destroyed they're going to take the rest of the Palestinians with them. I'd rather as few Palestinians as possible died. And the only way to achieve that, I think, is to exterminate Hamas. Sooner is better

Let me get this straight, when you express concern for Palestinian civilians, it's compassion. But when I do it, it's falling for Hamas propaganda? That is precisely what I've been saying all along!!

We don't like what's happening one bit.

It's just we don't fall for the propaganda blaming Israel. Hamas engineered this, they intended mass civilian casualties. It's the biggest weapon they have.

That’s the same logic white supremacists used during Jim Crow to justify police brutality, “Well, if Black people didn’t resist so much, maybe they wouldn’t get hurt.” You're not acknowledging suffering, you’re excusing it by pointing at the victims and saying they made us do it. Whether you intend to or not, you’re echoing rhetoric used to justify state violence throughout history.

And by your own standard, intent doesn’t matter, if you echo the same reasoning as those who dehumanize and deflect blame from systemic violence, you are reinforcing it. Just like you say people who quote Palestinian statistics are “doing Hamas’ work,” your rhetoric here is indistinguishable from colonial apologia and supremacist propaganda.

I don’t believe Israel has anything to do with the shit you’re saying, this is all entirely you.

 

[DrZoidberg]

According to the Reuters article, the Gaza health ministry only counts actual bodies. But there are probably thousands more buried in the rubble of thousands of bombed buildings.

Have you not been paying attention?

The "Gaza Health Ministry" (Hamas) supposedly counted bodies. But it counted 4k that certainly didn't exist. Therefore they didn't count bodies. And everyone else just repeats the number, failing to note the bad data proves they are not checking.

The Gaza health ministry is little more than a propaganda wing for Hamas. Gaza has always been a hopelessly corrupt shit show. They have never been honest about anything. Why would they suddenly start now?

 

[DrZoidberg]

That logic, claiming oppressed groups exaggerate or fabricate their pain for attention, is literally a hallmark of white supremacist rhetoric. It’s been used to dismiss civil rights claims for decades. Just because it’s dressed up in different language doesn’t make it any less poisonous.

That's not applicable in this conflict. Hamas is little more than an Iranian staging post to make attacks on Israel, in order to destabilise it. Iran hates Israel because they're Islamofascist and fascists like blaming all their problems on external factors. Iran is one of the most brutal and calous regimes in world history.

Gaza is small and to prevent Israel from simply crushing it, they (Iran) are exploiting that Israel is a democracy that respects human rights. They're using that as a weapon against Israel. They're using the suffering of the Palestinian people as a PR shield to stop Israel from retaliating.

Following 7/10 leaving Hamas in control was not an option, with predictable results

 

[laughing dog]

No. I'm saying they are doing better than anyone else, I feel they are meeting the burden.

You keep saying this and you have been asked before. Who are you making this comparison to to declare "They are doing better"?

Everyone. Including the US.

That sounds like more of a dodge than a real answer. How about being a little more specific?

We've been down this one before. You managed to find a site that basically said combat doesn't have to be deadly to civilians because combat is always deadly either the civilians or the attacking force. Yes, effectively claiming !p because p.

That is non-responsive jibber jabber. Produce your data.

Why do I need to when he already basically proved my point?

Only in your dreams. Without actual data, it is reasonable you just made it up.

 

[Gospel]

According to the Reuters article, the Gaza health ministry only counts actual bodies. But there are probably thousands more buried in the rubble of thousands of bombed buildings.

Have you not been paying attention?

The "Gaza Health Ministry" (Hamas) supposedly counted bodies. But it counted 4k that certainly didn't exist. Therefore they didn't count bodies. And everyone else just repeats the number, failing to note the bad data proves they are not checking.

The Gaza health ministry is little more than a propaganda wing for Hamas. Gaza has always been a hopelessly corrupt shit show. They have never been honest about anything. Why would they suddenly start now?

You can question the Gaza Health Ministry’s numbers all day, but even the IDF has acknowledged over 24,000 civilian deaths. That’s not Hamas propaganda, it’s coming from the very institution carrying out the campaign. I recognize the operational challenges the IDF faces in asymmetric warfare against Hamas. It’s a brutal and complex fight. My issue isn’t with Israel defending itself, it’s with you, parroting rhetoric sounding like it was ripped from a white supremacist message board. Reducing an entire population to violent caricatures and dismissing their suffering. It’s repackaged ideological hate that's being laundered under Israel's flag.

 

[Gospel]

That logic, claiming oppressed groups exaggerate or fabricate their pain for attention, is literally a hallmark of white supremacist rhetoric. It’s been used to dismiss civil rights claims for decades. Just because it’s dressed up in different language doesn’t make it any less poisonous.

That's not applicable in this conflict. Hamas is little more than an Iranian staging post to make attacks on Israel, in order to destabilise it. Iran hates Israel because they're Islamofascist and fascists like blaming all their problems on external factors. Iran is one of the most brutal and calous regimes in world history.

Gaza is small and to prevent Israel from simply crushing it, they (Iran) are exploiting that Israel is a democracy that respects human rights. They're using that as a weapon against Israel. They're using the suffering of the Palestinian people as a PR shield to stop Israel from retaliating.

Following 7/10 leaving Hamas in control was not an option, with predictable results

You just perfectly illustrated my point. Instead of engaging with the rhetoric I called out, the one that dismisses suffering as mere propaganda, you immediately shifted the focus to Iran, Hamas, and 10/7, as if those talking points somehow erase the underlying dehumanization. Yes, Iran is brutal. Yes, Hamas is manipulative. That still doesn’t excuse parroting language that treats Palestinian suffering as inherently fake or weaponized. That’s exactly how white supremacist rhetoric operates, by reframing pain as performance and justifying collective punishment through moral sleight of hand.

You’re not defending democracy. You’re eroding the principles it stands on by suggesting some people’s lives are too inconvenient to acknowledge.

 

[DrZoidberg]

IDF soldiers ordered to shoot deliberately at unarmed Gazans waiting for humanitarian aid

***

www.haaretz.com

Muslims opressing Muslims is not a juicy story. Ie Hamas opressing Palestinians. But the Jews doing it is. Even though they have been bending over backwards to accomodate the Palestinians.

By slowly encroaching on their on land and encouraging settler violence in the West Bank, torturing detainees, and dealing death and destruction to civilians in Gaza? Or is that being “super nice”?

You need to separate what the government does and what the settler (cunts) do.

Its also important to understand that the Palestinians are also violent towards the settlers

The method is that the settlers buy land from impoverished Palestinians. This is using private American money.

Its very hard for the Israeli government to stop. If they want a modern state where people are equal under the law.

Saying that the Israeli government is encouraging settler violence is just good ole' antisemitic racism. They don't. And that’s a silly accusation.

What settlers do is that they stir up trouble and then come running to the IDF when the Palestinians retaliate. I do not envy the IDF's mission. It must be an impossible situation to police

Israel doesn't torture detainees. I think you have them confused with Hamas?

What Israel does is mass arrests of (allegedly) violent Palestinians who are kept locked up without trials or oversight. That is genuinely bad and something Israel should stop. The reason they do it is the scale of attacks. The Palestinians are very violent. It just goes on and on. They also fight eachother.

The sheer scale of Palestinian violence makes this a challenge to manage in accordance with the rule of law. But they of course should. Its fundamental for a modern democratic state.

I also understand this from the Israeli perspective. The average Israeli is just so fucking sick of the pervasive Palestinian violence. Just going out at night for drinks in Israeli proper is an adventure. I understand if they have had enough of it and just want them locked up.

While I understand it I don't condone it.

BTW, Palestinians also think Palestinian violence is a problem

Which can be contrasted with Egypt. Also Muslim. Has so little violence sociologists struggle with explaining why

Strapped down, blindfolded, held in diapers: Israeli whistleblowers detail abuse of Palestinians in shadowy detention center

CNN spoke to three Israeli whistleblowers who worked at the Sde Teiman desert camp, which holds Palestinians detained during Israel’s invasion of Gaza. All spoke out at risk of legal repercussions and reprisals from groups supportive of Israel’s hardline policies in Gaza.

They paint a picture of a facility where doctors sometimes amputated prisoners’ limbs due to injuries sustained from constant handcuffing; of medical procedures sometimes performed by underqualified medics earning it a reputation for being “a paradise for interns”; and where the air is filled with the smell of neglected wounds left to rot.

We were told they were not allowed to move. They should sit upright. They’re not allowed to talk. Not allowed to peek under their blindfold.

An Israeli whistleblower recounting his experience at Sde Teiman

According to the accounts, the facility some 18 miles from the Gaza frontier is split into two parts: enclosures where around 70 Palestinian detainees from Gaza are placed under extreme physical restraint, and a field hospital where wounded detainees are strapped to their beds, wearing diapers and fed through straws.

“They stripped them down of anything that resembles human beings,” said one whistleblower, who worked as a medic at the facility’s field hospital.

“(The beatings) were not done to gather intelligence. They were done out of revenge,” said another whistleblower. “It was punishment for what they (the Palestinians) did on October 7 and punishment for behavior in the camp.”

Israelis are just humans like anyone. What I didn’t see in that article is that it's systematic or it being Israeli policy. Yes, detention centers are going to be ghastly places at the best of times. Processing detainees is hard at the best of times, and it's a war on.

Guards sometimes losing their cool is not the same thing as a systematic torturing of detainees.

The detention centre in the article is a far cry from Abu-Graib.

Prisoners getting sores and open wound for wearing cuffs for prolonged periods, is going to happen. Its unavoidable. The priority has to be to keep prisoners under control.

How about holding Israel to realistic standards?

 

[Gospel]

Predictable violence under occupation as unfortunate exceptions instead of inevitable outcomes of a broader policy. That’s the same rhetorical move that lets systemic oppression persist unchallenged.

Edit: I haven’t seen any official statements from the Israeli government that align with DrZoidberg’s opinion, so don’t try to hide behind the Israeli people. This is all you.

 

[DrZoidberg]

That logic, claiming oppressed groups exaggerate or fabricate their pain for attention, is literally a hallmark of white supremacist rhetoric. It’s been used to dismiss civil rights claims for decades. Just because it’s dressed up in different language doesn’t make it any less poisonous.

That's not applicable in this conflict. Hamas is little more than an Iranian staging post to make attacks on Israel, in order to destabilise it. Iran hates Israel because they're Islamofascist and fascists like blaming all their problems on external factors. Iran is one of the most brutal and calous regimes in world history.

Gaza is small and to prevent Israel from simply crushing it, they (Iran) are exploiting that Israel is a democracy that respects human rights. They're using that as a weapon against Israel. They're using the suffering of the Palestinian people as a PR shield to stop Israel from retaliating.

Following 7/10 leaving Hamas in control was not an option, with predictable results

You just perfectly illustrated my point. Instead of engaging with the rhetoric I called out, the one that dismisses suffering as mere propaganda, you immediately shifted the focus to Iran, Hamas, and 10/7, as if those talking points somehow erase the underlying dehumanization. Yes, Iran is brutal. Yes, Hamas is manipulative. That still doesn’t excuse parroting language that treats Palestinian suffering as inherently fake or weaponized. That’s exactly how white supremacist rhetoric operates, by reframing pain as performance and justifying collective punishment through moral sleight of hand.

You’re not defending democracy. You’re eroding the principles it stands on by suggesting some people’s lives are too inconvenient to acknowledge.

Who has said that the suffering of the Palestinian people is fake? I think it's very real. That's why I'm championing Israel right now. Israel needs to push hard and crush Hamas to stop the further suffering of the Palestinians. If Israel backs off now, Palestinians in Gaza will be doomed to continue a life as human shields. To perpetually live under the oppression of Hamas.

The problem with your position is that it's just a continuation of the status quo. Unless you have a realistic plan to remove Hamas from power, you got nothing. Then you’re just whining.

 

[DrZoidberg]

It’s hard to believe IIDB allows someone openly echoing white supremacist rhetoric to remain on their staff.

Its not. Its just slander on your part. The idea that it's white supremacy rhetoric, you just pulled out of your arse. Its not. I don't buy it.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Predictable violence under occupation as unfortunate exceptions instead of inevitable outcomes of a broader policy. That’s the same rhetorical move that lets systemic oppression persist unchallenged.

On the topic of allowing systematic oppression to persist unchallenged, you're the one who wants Israel to back off in Gaza.

Edit: I haven’t seen any official statements from the Israeli government that align with DrZoidberg’s opinion, so don’t try to hide behind the Israeli people. This is all you.

This is just something you keep repeating. I have no idea what you are alluding to

 

[Gospel]

Unless you have a realistic plan to remove Hamas from power, you got nothing.

You mean the post I made on January 10, 2024, the one you completely dismissed without engaging with any of it?

IMO, Israel should leverage the legal case brought against them by South Africa, using it as an opportunity to take responsibility. They must commit to a sincere and transparent effort to help rebuild Gaza, working collaboratively with Palestinians as they return to their homes. This is a critical moment to put an end to the longstanding open-air prison conditions & the establishment of a new constitution for the Palestinian people who actually desire the same freedom of and freedom from religion the west has. Being in a position of influence, Israel cannot simply walk away & they damn sure can't keep the territory. Instead, they should proactively engage with returning Palestinians, expressing genuine remorse with hopes that they can turn all the anger and pain into shared interests and values. This is not only morally imperative but also essential for Israel's own security. A concerted effort to assist in the reconstruction of Palestinian territories, with an emphasis on reconciliation and cooperation, should take precedence. LIKE YESTERDAY. I have no idea WTF they can possibly do now other than that. Stay in Gaza? Leave it empty? Make it a military complex? Choosing any of those alternatives would be a grave error, potentially leading the region into conflicts of a magnitude beyond human capacity to manage effectively.

Looks likes Israel is actually following half of my suggestions so far. The rest? Well there is still time.

Where I was right:​

• Aid & Reconstruction: You called for Israel to take responsibility and help rebuild Gaza. In 2025, Israel backed the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation (GHF) alongside the U.S. and is participating in international reconstruction talks.
• Engaging Palestinians: You suggested Israel work with Palestinians returning to Gaza. Plans now include involving the Palestinian Authority (not Hamas) in future governance as part of a ceasefire and rebuilding strategy.
• Security + Morality: You warned against military occupation or abandoning Gaza. Israel is negotiating a phased ceasefire with partial withdrawal and has avoided permanently reoccupying Gaza (so far).

Where I was wrong (So Far):​

• Public Remorse: You expected Israel to express remorse. There’s been no official apology or acknowledgment of long-term responsibility—only limited acknowledgment of specific incidents.
• Shared Governance/Constitution: You proposed helping Palestinians form a new constitution and shared governance. Israel has not committed to anything close to constitutional reform or direct co-governance with Gazans.
• Ending “Prison Conditions”: The blockade and control of Gaza’s borders remain firmly in place. Israel still restricts movement and trade—no indication yet of a shift away from those conditions.

Edit: I used chatgpt for the list (forgot to mention it - forum rules).

 

[Gospel]

It’s hard to believe IIDB allows someone openly echoing white supremacist rhetoric to remain on their staff.

Its not. Its just slander on your part. The idea that it's white supremacy rhetoric, you just pulled out of your arse. Its not. I don't buy it.

Aww, look at you, talking about slander, that's so cute. Meanwhile, I’ve backed up everything I’ve said with direct quotes and clear examples of you and Loren using rhetoric that mirrors white supremacist language. So tell me, what exactly have you brought to the table besides another empty claim? People like you and Loren have no place in civil society.