Legal definition of woman is based on biological sex, UK supreme court rules

[seanie]

We'wha was a man in some circumstances and a woman in others. People who knew We'wha used the pronoun "he" to describe him when he was living and acting as a man, and used "she" to describe her when she was living and acting as a woman. The current trend toward using "they" would be appropriate when speaking of We'wha as a Two-Spirits person, a lhamana of the Zuni people.

We'wha's biological sex was not the same thing as their gender identity or their role in society, especially when it came to roles defined by gender. He was a shaman and member of the kachina society who performed ritual dances during religious ceremonies. She was a crafter and cultural ambassador who taught both young children and visiting anthropologists the history and lore of her people. We'wha was male, and We'wha was female.

The rationale for recognizing that fact is the same as for recognizing any link between gender and identity in any person in any society

So your metric for how we determine who is a man or women is the societally constructed gender roles they conform to at any particular time.

And you think you’re being progressive?

 

[seanie]

Bit of lippy and a wig, stockings and a dress, hey presto! This man is now a woman.

 

[seanie]

Young boy who likes Barbie, pink, dresses and sparkles.

Obviously a girl.

We should sterilise and castrate them.

So progressive.

 

[seanie]

Do expand on what you mean by “living and acting as a man” and “living and acting as a women”.

I’d be enthralled to know just how exactly men and women are supposed to live and act.

 

[laughing dog]

If you think the 4 post above are either clever or conducive to intelligent conversation, you are mistake unless someone wants the herculean task of trying to fix stupid.

 

[Politesse]

Oh, I think the infantile drive-by posts are very instructive. Might as well take the white gloves off.

 

[TomC]

Oh, I think the infantile drive-by posts are very instructive. Might as well take the white gloves off.

You radical trans activists are such hypocrites. Y'all seem to think that 6th century religious texts are relevant to the discussion, but seanie's experience as parent of a trans child is not.

He is so much more calm and polite than I would be if dumbasses like y'all said the kind of stuff you say to him to me.
Idiots.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

Oh, I think the infantile drive-by posts are very instructive. Might as well take the white gloves off.

You radical trans activists are such hypocrites. Y'all seem to think that 6th century religious texts are relevant to the discussion, but seanie's experience as parent of a trans child is not.

He is so much more calm and polite than I would be if dumbasses like y'all said the kind of stuff you say to him to me.
Idiots.
Tom

Your reality-free opinions lend an entertaining and whimsical air to the proceedings.

 

[TomC]

Your reality-free opinions lend an entertaining and whimsical air to the proceedings.

I don't see how the Talmud is relevant, but the opinions of the parent of a trans child are not. But clearly you think that is "reality-free".

I expect the HCIC to come along shortly and agree with you.
Tom

 

[Arctish]

I suggest looking into the psychology of gender first. You seem to have a pretty good grasp of the biology of sex, at least enough to understand there is a difference between being male and being a man, being female and being a woman, being human and having a weak or variable connection to a gender identity.

Well of course there’s a difference between being male and being a man, and being female and being a woman.

The differences are age and species.

So this Disney song is all about age and species?



Wow.

I thought they were singing about expectations and gender roles.

 

[TomC]

Now there is Disney's idea of a woman.
Tom

 

[Arctish]

How does what you’ve said explain why men should be considered to be women in some circumstances?

What’s the rationale? What’s the justification?

Did you follow the link I posted a few days ago to an article that talks about We'wha?

Here's a Britannica article with more information.

We'wha was a man in some circumstances and a woman in others. People who knew We'wha used the pronoun "he" to describe him when he was living and acting as a man, and used "she" to describe her when she was living and acting as a woman. The current trend toward using "they" would be appropriate when speaking of We'wha as a Two-Spirits person, a lhamana of the Zuni people.

We'wha's biological sex was not the same thing as their gender identity or their role in society, especially when it came to roles defined by gender. He was a shaman and member of the kachina society who performed ritual dances during religious ceremonies. She was a crafter and cultural ambassador who taught both young children and visiting anthropologists the history and lore of her people. We'wha was male, and We'wha was female.

The rationale for recognizing that fact is the same as for recognizing any link between gender and identity in any person in any society.

The derails in this thread I find extremely aggravating. I'm not interested in your irrelevant rabbit hole enough to click the link.

I'll just ask. How did We'wha handle public spaces with indoor plumbing, like restrooms and showers and such?
Tom

You ask for a rationale and a justification for why men should be considered women in some circumstances and then refuse to click on a link that not only provides a rationale, it presents an example of a person living as both a man and a woman over 100 years ago, because you want to know how people handle indoor plumbing?

Those are very mobile goalposts you've got there.

Are your questions purely rhetorical or are you trying to have a serious discussion about sex, gender, and social customs?

 

[seanie]

So what does it mean to say trans women are women?

What’s the basis for this claim?

Is it chromosomes?

Genetics?

That they consider themselves women?

That they “live as women”?

That they’ve “fully transitioned” with no explanation of what “fully transitioned” means?

Is it because of Clownfish?

Or Seahorses?

Or Guevedoces?

What’s the rationale?

The question still stands.

What is the criteria by which some men should be considered women?

Show your workings.

 

[seanie]

Do expand on what you mean by “living and acting as a man” and “living and acting as a women”.

I’d be enthralled to know just how exactly men and women are supposed to live and act.

That’s also a standing question.

Feel free to enlighten us.

 

[Arctish]

I suggest looking into the psychology of gender first. You seem to have a pretty good grasp of the biology of sex, at least enough to understand there is a difference between being male and being a man, being female and being a woman, being human and having a weak or variable connection to a gender identity.

Well of course there’s a difference between being male and being a man, and being female and being a woman.

The differences are age and species.

That's not the whole difference.
Amongst humans,
For nearly all of human history there was no particular reason to distinguish between sex and gender. Now there is. So while male and man used to be virtually synonymous that's no longer the case. Now we've got male women and female men.
Tom

For nearly all of Western European history that you know about, perhaps.

But the Greeks painted pictures of Hermaphroditus on vases, the Romans carved statues and wall decorations depicting Galli, the Norse told tales of their god Loki giving birth to trolls, witches, and an eight legged horse even though he was male and had fathered several children with his wife, so it's not like no one back then had any idea that males can live as females in a society, or that females can live as males.

 

[Arctish]

We'wha was a man in some circumstances and a woman in others. People who knew We'wha used the pronoun "he" to describe him when he was living and acting as a man, and used "she" to describe her when she was living and acting as a woman. The current trend toward using "they" would be appropriate when speaking of We'wha as a Two-Spirits person, a lhamana of the Zuni people.

We'wha's biological sex was not the same thing as their gender identity or their role in society, especially when it came to roles defined by gender. He was a shaman and member of the kachina society who performed ritual dances during religious ceremonies. She was a crafter and cultural ambassador who taught both young children and visiting anthropologists the history and lore of her people. We'wha was male, and We'wha was female.

The rationale for recognizing that fact is the same as for recognizing any link between gender and identity in any person in any society

So your metric for how we determine who is a man or women is the societally constructed gender roles they conform to at any particular time.

And you think you’re being progressive?

Now you're just being childish.*

*see what I did there?

 

[laughing dog]

Your reality-free opinions lend an entertaining and whimsical air to the proceedings.

I don't see how the Talmud is relevant, but the opinions of the parent of a trans child are not. But clearly you think that is "reality-free".

I know your response is reality-free because it is yet dumbass straw man.

 

[TomC]

Your reality-free opinions lend an entertaining and whimsical air to the proceedings.

I don't see how the Talmud is relevant, but the opinions of the parent of a trans child are not. But clearly you think that is "reality-free".

I know your response is reality-free because it is yet dumbass straw man.

And once again, you dance around the question asked. You retreat to vague insults, and the reasons for that are obvious.
Tom

 

[Arctish]

Do expand on what you mean by “living and acting as a man” and “living and acting as a women”.

I’d be enthralled to know just how exactly men and women are supposed to live and act.

That’s also a standing question.

Feel free to enlighten us.

Men and women live and act in societies. It almost never happens that someone is completely isolated from a society, and when it does happen it's terrible for their mental health. Societies have expectations of behavior, and ones that have been around for a while have developed social roles.

If a society deems hunting a male activity, then a woman who hunts is acting as a male according to the social norms of that society.

If their religion teaches that men should shave their facial hair, put on dresses and make themselves pretty to please a goddess and secure her blessings, then men who do that are acting like men in that society even though they are dressing like women.

If their society accepts gender fluidity then the gender identity they are expressing at any given time isn't necessarily the one they will always have. They might hunt as a man and take care of babies as a woman and it's all good because their society respects both sides of their gender identity.

It's not that hard to figure out the basics of gender roles in societies and how/why those roles are not strictly linked to biological sex if you really want to give it some thought.

 

[Arctish]

Bit of lippy and a wig, stockings and a dress, hey presto! This man is now a woman.

No, they're still men.