Immigration Issues

[Loren Pechtel]

I love cultural diversity. It's what makes us stronger. It's what makes life more interesting.

I like diversity too. And yes I agree it makes life more interesting.

But it surely does not make the nation stronger. It does not make us stronger because we can not communicate with those who speak a different language. It does not make us stronger when we become confused over cultural differences. Nor does it help having a country fighting with each other all the time. Unity is what makes any organization including a country much stronger.

Disagree. The communication losses aren't that big a factor.

And you're the one that wants the country fighting itself, not us.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Many crops are still harvested by hand because robot just cannot yet do the hand eye thing very fast. Blueberries, strawberries, melons, apples, oranges. Wages would have to be over $25/hr. for a farmer to even think about robots.
Have you ever picked strawberries in the hot sun for 8-10 hrs. a day?

It's not even hand-eye. A robot could be slower and still be a good deal because it could work 24/7.

I've never picked a blueberry but my impression of the growing conditions is that it requires reaching in around the plant and applying carefully controlled pressure to remove the blueberry from the plant. I have picked strawberries, even more of an issue because the plants are small enough that you can't just freely tug them. I have picked a few melons--again, you have to get in under the plant and carefully remove it without tearing up the plant in the process. Apples, no idea. Citrus--picked a fair amount of it. An actuator that could actually reach the right spot and pick it would be pretty darn complex. I generally can figure out how to get through the tree to the fruit, but that's an example of figuring out the layout of overlapping objects--something that AFIAK is still an unsolved problem in computer vision.

We have a variety of stonefruit in our yard. Reach in, figure out which direction to apply force and remove it without damage? They're a lot more delicate, everything that applies to citrus applies far more so to the stonefruit. As it stands even with an unimpeded grip sometimes one falls. The peaches are big enough that the picking claw I have can generally grip them--but even then I probably drop 1 in 10 because it doesn't have the same sort of grip I do and all too many have limited approaches.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Learn to code, of course.

That will soon be replaced by AI too. Probably a lot sooner than other professions.

Disagree, although I think the profession is in for trouble because AI can do a lot of what a junior programmer can do, limiting the ladder. But that's all the AI can do, anything that requires bigger picture thinking AI won't touch. And can AI hope to deal with the bug report I just had of getting two different answers? (You edited one of those, the scripts don't actually say the same thing!)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

As for illegals--we don't blame the employers because we do not have viable systems for establishing identity. Yes, we have e-verify but that does not solve the issue of identity theft and thus I consider it worse than the problem it's supposed to fix. Would you prefer an illegal work under a completely forged identity, or under the identity of a real person, giving said person IRS headaches?

Of course we have a viable method for establishing identity. I was expected to provide my govt. issued ID, SS number, appropriate transcripts and records as well as verified references for my jobs. Admittedly I only needed my SS number when I spent a summer detasseling corn, a common summer job for kids too young to drive to better paid jobs. Immigrants I know have a government issued work permit that they present upon application for a job, along with whatever other credentials are required. Immigrants have passports and usually driver’s licenses and even RealID. Just like US citizens.

Identity theft is not much of an issue as far as immigrants are concerned. There is a much greater threat of identity theft through a variety of scams, admittedly many committed by persons in other countries.

I prefer that undocumented immigrants not be referred to as ‘illegals’ or with other dehumanizing terms. No person is illegal. I prefer that employers treat ALL employees with dignity and respect, pay fair wages, provide safe and fair work conditions for all employees, regardless of where they were born.

You're missing my point. I'm saying that cracking down on employment verification would cause them to resort to identity theft rather than simply forged documentation. I'm not saying it's a current issue, but that it would be an unintended consequence of an actual crackdown.

 

[TomC]

You're missing my point. I'm saying that cracking down on employment verification would cause them to resort to identity theft rather than simply forged documentation. I'm not saying it's a current issue, but that it would be an unintended consequence of an actual crackdown.

And I don't believe that is true.

If an employer were balancing the risk of hiring someone in particular against the risk of a $10k fine I am certain that the employers would find ways to avoid the risk.
One biggie would be demanding better documenting processes. Another would be a government database that absolved the employer when used properly.

Bottom line is that if American society weren't so schizophrenic about wanting immigrants to work and not giving them documents we wouldn't have this problem!
Tom

 

[ZiprHead]

Learn to code, of course.

That will soon be replaced by AI too. Probably a lot sooner than other professions.

Disagree, although I think the profession is in for trouble because AI can do a lot of what a junior programmer can do, limiting the ladder. But that's all the AI can do, anything that requires bigger picture thinking AI won't touch. And can AI hope to deal with the bug report I just had of getting two different answers? (You edited one of those, the scripts don't actually say the same thing!)

A UI specialist directing the AI, testing the output, tweaking by telling the AI what needs to be fixed.

 

[crazyfingers]

I've never picked a blueberry but my impression of the growing conditions is that it requires reaching in around the plant and applying carefully controlled pressure to remove the blueberry from the plant.

Correct. Maine wild blueberries. Not only do you have to reach in and carefully pick the ones you want, without knocking them on the ground, you have to not pick the ones that aren't ripe yet and come back in a couple days to get them.

Commercial growers rake them but I believe that creates a lot of wasted blueberries.

 

[Toni]

As for illegals--we don't blame the employers because we do not have viable systems for establishing identity. Yes, we have e-verify but that does not solve the issue of identity theft and thus I consider it worse than the problem it's supposed to fix. Would you prefer an illegal work under a completely forged identity, or under the identity of a real person, giving said person IRS headaches?

Of course we have a viable method for establishing identity. I was expected to provide my govt. issued ID, SS number, appropriate transcripts and records as well as verified references for my jobs. Admittedly I only needed my SS number when I spent a summer detasseling corn, a common summer job for kids too young to drive to better paid jobs. Immigrants I know have a government issued work permit that they present upon application for a job, along with whatever other credentials are required. Immigrants have passports and usually driver’s licenses and even RealID. Just like US citizens.

Identity theft is not much of an issue as far as immigrants are concerned. There is a much greater threat of identity theft through a variety of scams, admittedly many committed by persons in other countries.

I prefer that undocumented immigrants not be referred to as ‘illegals’ or with other dehumanizing terms. No person is illegal. I prefer that employers treat ALL employees with dignity and respect, pay fair wages, provide safe and fair work conditions for all employees, regardless of where they were born.

You're missing my point. I'm saying that cracking down on employment verification would cause them to resort to identity theft rather than simply forged documentation. I'm not saying it's a current issue, but that it would be an unintended consequence of an actual crackdown.

You missed the point that many immigrants HAVE legal documents/visas allowing them to work LEGALLY in the US. That does NOT stop many employers from mistreating the workers, including wage theft and poor working conditions.
And if you read the newspapers, you should be aware that MANY legal, law abiding immigrants are being swept up by ICE and imprisoned in deplorable conditions, without due process. This includes the holders of green cards who have been abducted as they enter courtrooms for their citizenship oath/swearing in ceremony.

You are correct that the current atmosphere makes everything much more dangerous for any immigrant but also for US citizens who may not be blonde/blue eyed.

 

[robnisch]

I've never picked a blueberry but my impression of the growing conditions is that it requires reaching in around the plant and applying carefully controlled pressure to remove the blueberry from the plant.

Correct. Maine wild blueberries. Not only do you have to reach in and carefully pick the ones you want, without knocking them on the ground, you have to not pick the ones that aren't ripe yet and come back in a couple days to get them.

Commercial growers rake them but I believe that creates a lot of wasted blueberries.

View attachment 51616

Alaskan style.

 

[barbos]

50 years on Green Card? How is that normal?

I would assume someone who doesn't want to give up their original citizenship, or someone who can function well enough with their native language that they don't have to learn English. (Citizenship includes a spoken English test.)

His english is probably better than yours. But yeah, South Korea does not allow dual citizenship.

 

[TSwizzle]

And if you read the newspapers, you should be aware that MANY legal, law abiding immigrants are being swept up by ICE and imprisoned in deplorable conditions, without due process. This includes the holders of green cards who have been abducted as they enter courtrooms for their citizenship oath/swearing in ceremony.

Do you have any evidence of this? Other than Facebook memes etc?

You are correct that the current atmosphere makes everything much more dangerous for any immigrant but also for US citizens who may not be blonde/blue eyed.

no it doesn’t actually.

 

[bilby]

many immigrants HAVE legal documents/visas allowing them to work LEGALLY in the US. That does NOT stop many employers from mistreating the workers, including wage theft and poor working conditions.

This also highlights the fact that having most, but not all, of the rights of a full citizen, can allow unscrupulous people to exploit you. Which is why not only should legal immigrants be given more rights, but also full citizens should fight to keep the rights they currently enjoy (and which are currently being eroded).

 

[ZiprHead]

And if you read the newspapers, you should be aware that MANY legal, law abiding immigrants are being swept up by ICE and imprisoned in deplorable conditions, without due process. This includes the holders of green cards who have been abducted as they enter courtrooms for their citizenship oath/swearing in ceremony.

Do you have any evidence of this? Other than Facebook memes etc?

There's plenty of evidence. ICE is grabbing people right outside the immigration court's courtroom after being granted approval for the next step of their immigration process.

If you are this uninformed you really should not participate in this conversation.

And we have this:

German tourist with US visa reflects on being held in ICE custody for weeks Lucas Sielaff spent 16 days locked up at the Otay Mesa Detention facility south of San Diego before being allowed to fly home to Germany. He shares his story.

This is happening to tourists all over the country.

 

[Toni]

many immigrants HAVE legal documents/visas allowing them to work LEGALLY in the US. That does NOT stop many employers from mistreating the workers, including wage theft and poor working conditions.

This also highlights the fact that having most, but not all, of the rights of a full citizen, can allow unscrupulous people to exploit you. Which is why not only should legal immigrants be given more rights, but also full citizens should fight to keep the rights they currently enjoy (and which are currently being eroded).

I do think that there are some rights that apply only to citizens—the right to vote or to hold elected office are major ones. I also think the US made an enormous mistake in allowing non-citizens to own media and to buy significant real estate or to operate certain businesses in the US—here, I’m thinking of businesses that involve significant environmental risk. Example: A foreign corporation wants to conduct mining in an environmentally sensitive area. Said corporation has a history of causing significant environmental harm in their own country. Being a foreign country makes it much more difficult to enforce consequences for violating US environmental laws. Just as being POTUS requires being born in the US, so should operating certain kinds of businesses in the US.

 

[Patooka]

Government and its officers may do good, just like the gang or mob may do some good and token acts of service to members of the neighborhood it runs, but in the end it rules by coercion and fear and all the arguments used by governments to show they are somehow different from a gang seem to always fail when looked deeply into. Also like the gang or mob, any good the government does for "regular people" really is just to protect and help the leaders prosper and do well and hide the fact they are pimping the general population.

I could not agree more. In the final analysis government doesn't give a crap about us. Not really. All they really care about is keeping their own jobs and giving themselves more freedom and power mostly at our expense of limited liberty.

Please be honest - what has stopped you from talking about the Epstein Files? Blink once for yes and twice for no.

Are they treating you well in that compound?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I've never picked a blueberry but my impression of the growing conditions is that it requires reaching in around the plant and applying carefully controlled pressure to remove the blueberry from the plant.

Correct. Maine wild blueberries. Not only do you have to reach in and carefully pick the ones you want, without knocking them on the ground, you have to not pick the ones that aren't ripe yet and come back in a couple days to get them.

Commercial growers rake them but I believe that creates a lot of wasted blueberries.

View attachment 51616

View attachment 51619
Alaskan style.

Having picked gallons of the damned things, that might work with farms, but not in the wild.

 

[unapologetic]

Just as being POTUS requires being born in the US, so should operating certain kinds of businesses in the US.

So should owning a political TV network.

what has stopped you from talking about the Epstein Files?

Me? I'm nobody. But it lost Colebert his job. I hear Kimmel is next.

 

[TomC]

Having picked gallons of the damned things, that might work with farms, but not in the wild.

Back when I was a toddler, maybe 2, my parents took us to a pick-your-own blueberry farm in Michigan. Because the berries were super cheap and Mom was going to make jam.
They gave you a sort of apron with pockets to wear as you picked, then you put them in a box. My Mom had been on her knees long enough to have a fully packed apron. As she started to stand up, I grabbed one of the apron strings and pulled. All her berries poured out onto the dirt. The last thing I remember is her angry screaming.
Tom

 

[Toni]

Anybody here picked strawberries? They are more tender than blue berries or cranberries. They also grow lower to the ground. Raspberries are more tender still.

What about tomatoes? Sure more thicker skinned, hardy varieties can be grown but at a cost of both flavor and taste—and nutritional value. Which is why winter tomatoes can be accurately described as tasting like styrofoam.

Now, I’m a big fan of eating locally grown food whenever possible, but I do love tropical fruits and seafood and I live in the Midwest in the USA so I am flexible. But foodstuffs are perishable and labor intensive. At least the healthy options are.

 

[crazyfingers]

Anybody here picked strawberries? They are more tender than blue berries or cranberries. They also grow lower to the ground. Raspberries are more tender still.

What about tomatoes? Sure more thicker skinned, hardy varieties can be grown but at a cost of both flavor and taste—and nutritional value. Which is why winter tomatoes can be accurately described as tasting like styrofoam.

Now, I’m a big fan of eating locally grown food whenever possible, but I do love tropical fruits and seafood and I live in the Midwest in the USA so I am flexible. But foodstuffs are perishable and labor intensive. At least the healthy options are.

I've picked wild strawberries. They were about the size of a raspberry and easily squished.