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“Revolution in Thought: A new look at determinism and free will"

It seems that there are two competing models here.

In model A, light is generated at the Sun, in the form of photons. These photons travel at c (299792458m/s) away from the Sun, and some of them arrive at the Earth, some eight and a half minutes later. A fraction of those might impinge upon the light sensitive chemicals in the retina, causing a photochemical reaction that initiates an ion cascade in the optic nerve. That cascade propogates along the nerve to the brain, at about 100m/s, arriving in the brain after about a millisecond; The brain interprets these signals, and forms the qualia we call "seeing the Sun".
No argument here. He gave a hypothetical example that distinguished between seeing each other after 8.5 minutes and seeing the Sun turned on instantly before we could see each other. And he gave reasons for this.
In model B, light is generated at the Sun, which is so large and so luminous that we form the qualia we call "seeing the Sun" instantly. However, the objects around us on Earth still have to wait for eight and a half minutes for the photons to arrive, and be reflected from them into our eyes, before we can see them.
Yes, that is true. He brought this up to show why this would occur. It is hypothetical because the light from the Sun is already here, and when night comes, it's not like the Sun is turned again. It's just on another side of the Earth as it spins.
The main question this raises, is fairly simple; What is the mechanism by which large luminous objects are detected instantly? It isn't the transmission of photons; They take time to arrive. So what is it? How large, and how luminous, must an object be to meet this criterion for instant seeing? Does the proposed mechanism also give an insight into the reason for, and magnitude of, these thresholds?
I'm not sure what you mean by "mechanism". Large luminous objects are detected instantly only if it is true that we are looking at the real object itself, not the image. If he is right, and we see the real deal (i.e., the object or event), not the image arriving, the object's wavelength would automatically be at the eye or we wouldn't see the object. Light is a necessary condition for sight but to conclude that it carries the "image" (or wavelength) to us, is erroneous. The reason he believed we are seeing in real time was due to how the brain and eyes work in relation to language. His reasoning was not from within the field of astronomy, which may allow us to see a situation from a different perspective.
The answer given so far is that "the wavength is at the eye", which is not so much an explanation of the mechanism, as it is a restatement of the problem - how did that "wavelength" get there? And what is a "wavelength" in this context? Photons have a wavelength (also known as a "colour", or "color" in the US), but photons are not "at the eye" until they arrive, which we already know will take eight minutes.
The wavelength at the eye would be there whether it was from delayed vision or instant vision. You say that photons are not "at the eye" until they arrive, but this is not true since there is no arrival or travel time in real time vision. This is all due, once again, to how the eyes work as they begin to focus (in infancy) due to the desire to see as a result of input from the other senses. It has been taken for granted that these photons travel and finally arrive, which is logical, and are then chemically transduced to form an image in the visual cortex that we call sight. It is also true that there is a vital connection between the optic nerve and the brain (for without this connection we would be blind), but this does not rule out seeing the world as it is, not as it was. When scientists talk about seeing the past, they are not referring to the processing time of approximately a millisecond. This is not what is under debate.
The problem with model B is that it raises a whole bunch of unanswered questions, while not answering any questions at all. And it also predicts some interesting things which we should be able to exploit.

The implications of faster than light transmission of information are immense. They would effectively allow us to communicate with the future, and the consequences of that are huge. I recommend Asimov's 1948 paper on The Endochronic Properties of Resublimated Thiotimoline, which describes a chemical process that achieves this information transmission, and his subsequent papers published between 1953 and 1973 that explore the implications and practical applications of such a process.
The claim of seeing in real time (or seeing what exists in the present) has nothing to do with faster than light transmission because it has nothing to do with travel time AT ALL. If it did, then the idea that faster than light transmission would be the only reasonable way for an image to get to the eye "instantly." Even then, it would be difficult to imagine.

In short, these implications are so profound that it is inconceivable that there would not be very clear evidence observable in reality, were these to exist. Indeed, the military applications alone would ensure that any such capability would be ruthlessly exploited.
It would, but at this point it sounds like science-fiction and has nothing to do with this claim in particular.
Yet no evidence whatsoever exists for this effect. If it did, @peacegirl would be able to suggest an experiment or observation that anyone could repeat to convince themselves of the existence of this effect.
I hope you will read his demonstration, which does give you some idea as to his observations. He said that light travels; what he disagreed with is that the light waves bounce off of the object and travel through space/time. That is where his claim of efferent vision, where the brain looks through the eyes as a window, needs further exploration. To repeat: this does not leave any gaps between the object seen and the object's wavelength that has to be at the retina. It's not magic.
You’ve been writing this post for 25 years. I’m sure it appeared verbatim at FF a decade ago.

And it is just so … how to put it? Incandescently idiotic. Stupefying in its stupidity. It is impossible to be more wrong than this.

And, no one gets pissed that you think your author was right. We find it amusing.
 
We are now chimps?
Yes, humans are one of the three species of chimpanzee.

Did you not know that?
We may have branched off millions of years ago, creating a new lineage, in which case we could be kissing cousins. I really don't want to divert attention away from the subject at hand.
 
Seriously Peacegirl. scientifically and philosophically gibberish.

gibberish
unintelligible or meaningless speech or writing; nonsense.
"he talks gibberish"


If you want to challenge the models of how the eyes and brain works you have to refute electromagnetics, quantum mechanics, and neuroscience. Nervous system and the brain are well mapped in by MRI.

The speech and vision centers in the brain are known.

A few years ago I had an MRI to look at my optic nerves trying to diagnose a vision problem.
I am in total agreement that the models that show the optic nerve and brain through an MRI are indisputable, but what can't be seen is the direction we see. It can't be identified this way. IOW, an MRI would look exactly the same whether we see in real or delayed time. There would be no difference. Neuroscience cannot see this, even if they dissected the brain, and he was not disputing electromagnetics. Quantum mechanics doesn't relate, and cannot dispute, his proof either.
 
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Peacegirl

The rub is when you say you do not dispute the speed of light and inherntrt delay, and then say instantaneous or without delay. The two are mutually exclusive.

You say you agree with my example of ray tracing and image formation on the retina an then say it is not how the eye works.

Again. How do we see an object 'the instant we look at it'?

To me instant means right away or quickly, it doe not mean instantaneous. It i a manner of speaking.

We do see an object the instant we look at it, but it i not without delay however close it is.

So if you are speaking colloquially we see an object instantly regardless of how far away it is, if that is what you mean.

Semantics versus physical science.
 

at this point it sounds like science-fiction
Are you seriously suggesting that Asimov's 1948 paper on The Endochronic Properties of Resublimated Thiotimoline, sounds like science-fiction??
I don't know anything about his paper. I was just responding to the idea that if we could travel faster than the speed of light, we would be able to see the future. That sounds like science-fiction to me. You can disagree if you want. It's a free country. :)
 
Peacegirl

The rub is when you say you do not dispute the speed of light and inherntrt delay, and then say instantaneous or without delay. The two are mutually exclusive.
Internet transmission is not the same as sight. They are two different things.
You say you agree with my example of ray tracing and image formation on the retina an then say it is not how the eye works.
I'm not even disputing that an image could form just like a receiver, but what I am saying is that this does not prove that a virtual image is what we actually see. There obviously has to be a connection to the outside world through the optic nerve, but it still does not prove that what we see is the past due to a lapse in time.
Again. How do we see an object 'the instant we look at it'?
You have to work backwards to understand this. IOW, for the sake of experiment, assume that what you are seeing is the real object, not the image. Remember, it has to be bright enough, large enough, and within your field of view. If you can see it, the wavelength would be at your eye instantly (no time involved), or you would be unable to see the object. It is believed that the object reflects the image (or wavelength) that then bounces off of said object and travels long distances. That is not true, according to Lessans' observations. Light travels, but images don't. I hope you understand what I mean when I say images. I know that it's just light, but the wavelength is what we're talking about here.
To me instant means right away or quickly, it doe not mean instantaneous. It i a manner of speaking.
I understand, but in this case it means instant, not right away or quickly, which would indicate a possible time delay, however small.
We do see an object the instant we look at it, but it i not without delay however close it is.
That is the present-day thinking.
So if you are speaking colloquially we see an object instantly regardless of how far away it is, if that is what you mean.
Yes, because size and luminosity matter more than distance in this account. That is why he said what he said about seeing the Sun turned on before we would see each other, although we were just a few feet apart and the Sun was 98 million miles away.
Semantics versus physical science.
It's not semantics.
 
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Peacegirl, the Webb telescope is ta king pictures of the deep past, the period of the first star formation. The universe was very different then. Webb destroys real-time seeing.
 
Peacegirl, the Webb telescope is ta king pictures of the deep past, the period of the first star formation. The universe was very different then. Webb destroys real-time seeing.
It was designed for infrared light. Redlight shift can definitely tell us many things such as whether the movement of celestial objects are moving toward us or away from us. The belief that light from distant galaxes is stretched (whatever that means) and that these ancient distant galaxes are seen using infrared light is due to the telescope's ability to detect these changes in the light spectrum. The conclusion, therefore, is based on the premise that we see in delayed time, and that these galaxies must be coming from the very very distant past, millions of lightyears away. Believe it or not, the movement of celestial bodies can be also explained using real time as well using the Webb telescope. The only difference is that the calculation as to how old the universe is may be off.
 
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I'm not sure what you mean by "mechanism". Large luminous objects are detected instantly only if it is true that we are looking at the real object itself, not the image.

Huh? A dialect of Gibberish I am unfamiliar with.
It's not gibberish; you just don't get it. Luminous only means bright enough to be seen. If something is too far away or too small, whether we are using a telescope, a camera, or the naked eye, we would not see it in either model of sight.
Light comprised of photon bonces off an object ,pass trough the eye lenns, get focused on the retina, photon converted to electron by the photoreceptors, and so o0n.

In geometric optics image formation is done by tracing straight l lines through a lens, ray tracing..

Light is reflecting off a painting you are looking at. At each point on the painting draw a straight line to the lens. The ray is bent by the lens trough refraction and hits a spot on the retina. The image is formed.

There is nothing instantaneous.

Optics software traces thousand of rays. There are free ray tracers online.
None of what you're saying is wrong. The only difference is how the brain and eyes work, not how light works.
Semantics. In physics we do not see the object directly as it really may be, we se light reflected off an object. There is nothing else.
That's what is being challenged. You are just regurgitating the same thing. According to Lessans, we see the object directly when we look at it. Science says we are not seeing the object directly; we are seeing the image. That is incorrect... if he's right. I say "if he is right" because I don't want people to get pissed, not that I doubt that he is right.
And that leads to the age old question, what s reality? Is our vision perception of reality? All deepnds on how you you define relativity.
We see the external world with our eyes, but how we perceive what we see is a different story.

The eyes detect light and convert its information into nerve impulses, then transmitted to the visual context to be processed and formed into vision....we see whatever it was that emitted or reflected the light that our eyes acquired after the event.
 
I'm not sure what you mean by "mechanism". Large luminous objects are detected instantly only if it is true that we are looking at the real object itself, not the image.

Huh? A dialect of Gibberish I am unfamiliar with.
It's not gibberish; you just don't get it. Luminous only means bright enough to be seen. If something is too far away or too small, whether we are using a telescope, a camera, or the naked eye, we would not see it in either model of sight.
Light comprised of photon bonces off an object ,pass trough the eye lenns, get focused on the retina, photon converted to electron by the photoreceptors, and so o0n.

In geometric optics image formation is done by tracing straight l lines through a lens, ray tracing..

Light is reflecting off a painting you are looking at. At each point on the painting draw a straight line to the lens. The ray is bent by the lens trough refraction and hits a spot on the retina. The image is formed.

There is nothing instantaneous.

Optics software traces thousand of rays. There are free ray tracers online.
None of what you're saying is wrong. The only difference is how the brain and eyes work, not how light works.
Semantics. In physics we do not see the object directly as it really may be, we se light reflected off an object. There is nothing else.
That's what is being challenged. You are just regurgitating the same thing. According to Lessans, we see the object directly when we look at it. Science says we are not seeing the object directly; we are seeing the image. That is incorrect... if he's right. I say "if he is right" because I don't want people to get pissed, not that I doubt that he is right.
And that leads to the age old question, what s reality? Is our vision perception of reality? All deepnds on how you you define relativity.
We see the external world with our eyes, but how we perceive what we see is a different story.

The eyes detect light and convert its information into nerve impulses, then transmitted to the visual context to be processed and formed into vision....we see whatever it was that emitted or reflected the light that our eyes acquired after the event.
I am not trying to debunk any of that. One thing only is being debated: You believe that we see a virtual image in the brain and integrate it with our life experiences. Lessans says otherwise. Regardless of which account is correct, the bottom line is that we still use what is seen (whether in real or delayed time) to understand life in relation to our personal experiences that allow us to make sense of the world.
 
I'm not sure what you mean by "mechanism". Large luminous objects are detected instantly only if it is true that we are looking at the real object itself, not the image.

Huh? A dialect of Gibberish I am unfamiliar with.
It's not gibberish; you just don't get it. Luminous only means bright enough to be seen. If something is too far away or too small, whether we are using a telescope, a camera, or the naked eye, we would not see it in either model of sight.
Light comprised of photon bonces off an object ,pass trough the eye lenns, get focused on the retina, photon converted to electron by the photoreceptors, and so o0n.

In geometric optics image formation is done by tracing straight l lines through a lens, ray tracing..

Light is reflecting off a painting you are looking at. At each point on the painting draw a straight line to the lens. The ray is bent by the lens trough refraction and hits a spot on the retina. The image is formed.

There is nothing instantaneous.

Optics software traces thousand of rays. There are free ray tracers online.
None of what you're saying is wrong. The only difference is how the brain and eyes work, not how light works.
Semantics. In physics we do not see the object directly as it really may be, we se light reflected off an object. There is nothing else.
That's what is being challenged. You are just regurgitating the same thing. According to Lessans, we see the object directly when we look at it. Science says we are not seeing the object directly; we are seeing the image. That is incorrect... if he's right. I say "if he is right" because I don't want people to get pissed, not that I doubt that he is right.
And that leads to the age old question, what s reality? Is our vision perception of reality? All deepnds on how you you define relativity.
We see the external world with our eyes, but how we perceive what we see is a different story.

The eyes detect light and convert its information into nerve impulses, then transmitted to the visual context to be processed and formed into vision....we see whatever it was that emitted or reflected the light that our eyes acquired after the event.
I am not trying to debunk any of that. One thing only is being debated: You believe that we see a virtual image in the brain and integrate it with our life experiences. Lessans says otherwise. Regardless of which account is correct, the bottom line is that we still use what is seen (whether in real or delayed time) to understand life in relation to our personal experiences that allow us to make sense of the world.

Lessan was wrong. Not because of my belief, or because I say so, but that the evidence goes against his belief in 'light at the eye/instant vision,' which has nothing to support it.
 
You have to work backwards to understand this. IOW, for the sake of experiment, assume that what you are seeing is the real object, not the image. Remember, it has to be bright enough, large enough, and within your field of view. If you can see it, the wavelength would be at your eye instantly (no time involved), or you would be unable to see the object. It is believed that the object reflects the image (or wavelength) that then bounces off of said object and travels long distances. That is not true, according to Lessans' observations. Light travels, but images don't. I hope you understand what I mean when I say images. I know that it's just light, but the wavelength is what we're talking about here.

Again gibberish. Th wavelength does not arrive photon do.

I gave an example of geocentric optic which is used in lens and optical system design. They are predictive. If I deign an optical system using it the performance will match the prediction.

I worked in electo-optics designing optical test systems for infrared video systems and detectors..

Physical optics describe how reflection and interference occurs by solving Maxwell;s equations, a bit above my pay grade.

Physical optics, also known as wave optics, is a branch of physics that studies light as a wave, focusing on phenomena like interference, diffraction, and polarization. It contrasts with geometric optics, which treats light as rays. Physical optics is essential when the wavelength of light is comparable to the size of the object it interacts with, or when wave-like behavior is prominent.

Light is not just viiisble. How light reflect off an object depends on the wavelength of the light versus the size of e object and the size of surface feature.

Light from an AM radio station at long wavelength reflect differently off an object than cell phone radiation at higher wavelengths.

Yes from a physics perspective Internet communication by EM wave is the same promenade. At the circuit board level electrical signals propagate as waves.

In optics there is the index of refraction, in electronics it i a called the dielectric constant.

Infrared light is invisible to us. In IR cameras visibly opaque germanium is used to make a lens. Infrared light is focused on a focal plane array and an image is created on video.

Note that the same principles of reflection and interference are used with acoustic sonar imaging systems. Instead of light the ocean floor is illuminated with acoustic waves.

In the video cables on your computer or TV EM waves propagate as visible light does. Visible light i one part of the electromagnetic spectrum.



The object does not reflect the image, the image is created by how the light reflects off of and interact with the surface of the object.

You really are stubbornly ignorant of physics.

Step by step describe your theory.

Light is emitted from a source
It hits an object

Then what happens next step by step according to your theory.....
 
Peacegirl, the Webb telescope is ta king pictures of the deep past, the period of the first star formation. The universe was very different then. Webb destroys real-time seeing.
It was designed for infrared light. Redlight shift can definitely tell us many things such as whether the movement of celestial objects are moving toward us or away from us. The belief that light from distant galaxes is stretched (whatever that means) and that these ancient distant galaxes are seen using infrared light is due to the telescope's ability to detect these changes in the light spectrum. The conclusion, therefore, is based on the premise that we see in delayed time, and that these galaxies must be coming from the very very distant past, millions of lightyears away. Believe it or not, the movement of celestial bodies can be also explained using real time as well using the Webb telescope. The only difference is that the calculation as to how old the universe is may be off.

Gibberish.
 
I'm not sure what you mean by "mechanism". Large luminous objects are detected instantly only if it is true that we are looking at the real object itself, not the image.

Huh? A dialect of Gibberish I am unfamiliar with.
It's not gibberish; you just don't get it. Luminous only means bright enough to be seen. If something is too far away or too small, whether we are using a telescope, a camera, or the naked eye, we would not see it in either model of sight.
Light comprised of photon bonces off an object ,pass trough the eye lenns, get focused on the retina, photon converted to electron by the photoreceptors, and so o0n.

In geometric optics image formation is done by tracing straight l lines through a lens, ray tracing..

Light is reflecting off a painting you are looking at. At each point on the painting draw a straight line to the lens. The ray is bent by the lens trough refraction and hits a spot on the retina. The image is formed.

There is nothing instantaneous.

Optics software traces thousand of rays. There are free ray tracers online.
None of what you're saying is wrong. The only difference is how the brain and eyes work, not how light works.
Semantics. In physics we do not see the object directly as it really may be, we se light reflected off an object. There is nothing else.
That's what is being challenged. You are just regurgitating the same thing. According to Lessans, we see the object directly when we look at it. Science says we are not seeing the object directly; we are seeing the image. That is incorrect... if he's right. I say "if he is right" because I don't want people to get pissed, not that I doubt that he is right.
And that leads to the age old question, what s reality? Is our vision perception of reality? All deepnds on how you you define relativity.
We see the external world with our eyes, but how we perceive what we see is a different story.

The eyes detect light and convert its information into nerve impulses, then transmitted to the visual context to be processed and formed into vision....we see whatever it was that emitted or reflected the light that our eyes acquired after the event.
I am not trying to debunk any of that. One thing only is being debated: You believe that we see a virtual image in the brain and integrate it with our life experiences. Lessans says otherwise. Regardless of which account is correct, the bottom line is that we still use what is seen (whether in real or delayed time) to understand life in relation to our personal experiences that allow us to make sense of the world.

Lessan was wrong. Not because of my belief, or because I say so, but that the evidence goes against his belief in 'light at the eye/instant vision,' which has nothing to support it.
He has his own evidence, which is supported. How can you know when you didn't read that chapter? You should read it and then dispute his observations, not before. But you will have to buy the book for $1.95.
 
Again Peacegirl, lay it out step by step how the eye works and how it is snorted by evidence?

Is this what you have been going through all your life?
 
You have to work backwards to understand this. IOW, for the sake of experiment, assume that what you are seeing is the real object, not the image. Remember, it has to be bright enough, large enough, and within your field of view. If you can see it, the wavelength would be at your eye instantly (no time involved), or you would be unable to see the object. It is believed that the object reflects the image (or wavelength) that then bounces off of said object and travels long distances. That is not true, according to Lessans' observations. Light travels, but images don't. I hope you understand what I mean when I say images. I know that it's just light, but the wavelength is what we're talking about here.

Again gibberish. Th wavelength does not arrive photon do.

I gave an example of geocentric optic which is used in lens and optical system design. They are predictive. If I deign an optical system using it the performance will match the prediction.

I worked in electo-optics designing optical test systems for infrared video systems and detectors..

Physical optics describe how reflection and interference occurs by solving Maxwell;s equations, a bit above my pay grade.

Physical optics, also known as wave optics, is a branch of physics that studies light as a wave, focusing on phenomena like interference, diffraction, and polarization. It contrasts with geometric optics, which treats light as rays. Physical optics is essential when the wavelength of light is comparable to the size of the object it interacts with, or when wave-like behavior is prominent.

Light is not just viiisble. How light reflect off an object depends on the wavelength of the light versus the size of e object and the size of surface feature.

Light from an AM radio station at long wavelength reflect differently off an object than cell phone radiation at higher wavelengths.

Yes from a physics perspective Internet communication by EM wave is the same promenade. At the circuit board level electrical signals propagate as waves.

In optics there is the index of refraction, in electronics it i a called the dielectric constant.

Infrared light is invisible to us. In IR cameras visibly opaque germanium is used to make a lens. Infrared light is focused on a focal plane array and an image is created on video.

Note that the same principles of reflection and interference are used with acoustic sonar imaging systems. Instead of light the ocean floor is illuminated with acoustic waves.

In the video cables on your computer or TV EM waves propagate as visible light does. Visible light i one part of the electromagnetic spectrum.
You keep bringing up things that don't relate. Light does all of these things, but we are not discussing light's properties. We are discussing the properties of the brain and eyes.
The object does not reflect the image, the image is created by how the light reflects off of and interact with the surface of the object.

You really are stubbornly ignorant of physics.

Step by step describe your theory.

Light is emitted from a source
It hits an object

Then what happens next step by step according to your theory.....
I tried to explain his observations and how he came to them. They did not come out of thin air. I cannot keep going over and over the same thing, which is exhausting. Meet me halfway. Buy the book, go to chapter four, read it carefully, and if you hate it, then you can be refunded $1.95 from Amazon if you do it within a certain window of time. I'm not sure if it's a couple of days or a week.
 
Peacegirl, the Webb telescope is ta king pictures of the deep past, the period of the first star formation. The universe was very different then. Webb destroys real-time seeing.
It was designed for infrared light. Redlight shift can definitely tell us many things such as whether the movement of celestial objects are moving toward us or away from us. The belief that light from distant galaxes is stretched (whatever that means) and that these ancient distant galaxes are seen using infrared light is due to the telescope's ability to detect these changes in the light spectrum. The conclusion, therefore, is based on the premise that we see in delayed time, and that these galaxies must be coming from the very very distant past, millions of lightyears away. Believe it or not, the movement of celestial bodies can be also explained using real time as well using the Webb telescope. The only difference is that the calculation as to how old the universe is may be off.

Gibberish.
Gibberish sprinkled with gobbledygook.
 
Peacegirl, the Webb telescope is ta king pictures of the deep past, the period of the first star formation. The universe was very different then. Webb destroys real-time seeing.
It was designed for infrared light. Redlight shift can definitely tell us many things such as whether the movement of celestial objects are moving toward us or away from us. The belief that light from distant galaxes is stretched (whatever that means) and that these ancient distant galaxes are seen using infrared light is due to the telescope's ability to detect these changes in the light spectrum. The conclusion, therefore, is based on the premise that we see in delayed time, and that these galaxies must be coming from the very very distant past, millions of lightyears away. Believe it or not, the movement of celestial bodies can be also explained using real time as well using the Webb telescope. The only difference is that the calculation as to how old the universe is may be off.

Gibberish.
Show me where the dog recognizes his owner without his sense of smell? He should not have to depend on levers. What a joke. :laugh:

 
He has his own evidence, which is supported. How can you know when you didn't read that chapter? You should read it and then dispute his observations, not before. But you will have to buy the book for $1.95.

If he has evidence, it should be verifiable, something that anyone can examine.

As it stands, there is no way around the fact of the speed of light and the time it takes to travel from the source to the eye.

This is something that has been verified by countless experiments. The laser reflector left on the moon, for instance, is still being used to measure the distance of the moon by how long it takes light to get to the moon and back.

The mars rovers have a lag in communication, as do the Voyager space probes that left the solar system, etc, etc.

All of which falsifies any notion of light at the eye/instant vision.
 
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