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Affirmative Action (split from Are people already regretting their choice?)

I'd just like to say a few words about the history of racism in the South v. the Northeast. Imo, and in the opinion of many Black people I've known or have worked with, who have lived in or spent a lot of time in the Northeast, all agree with me that racism is much worse in the North compared to the South these days. Of course, there are exceptions and Southern racists are much more obvious about their racism. That is something one former black coworker told me many years ago. She said she'd take a Southern racist over a Northern racist any day of the week because at least she knew were she stood with the Southern racist. I also met a black nurse who told me the same thing.

I'm extremely aware of the history of redlining and perhaps it still exists in some areas today, but my neighborhood in Georgia started becoming racially diverse around 2003, when my first black neighbor bought a house two doors down from me. Like me, she's an RN. My newest next door neighbors are a lovely mixed race couple with four kids, 3 who are young adults. There is a former black cop two doors from them, who now works as a security guard making more money. Then next to him was a city employee who decided he liked living in a rural area, but he sold his lovely home to a black family, and he made quite a bit of money on it, after updating it himself. There is also a black firefighter around the corner, a mixed race couple two doors from the RN, and a retired military officer near the end of my street. There are more black neighbors who I've never met and while the neighborhood is still majority white, we've come a long way. There are even black families living on the most desirable, most expensive street in my town. I've seen them walking their dogs etc.

I tease a close black friend who lives on the other side of town, that she needs more white neighbors since the last remaining one on her street moved out about 2 years ago. They moved because the renter next door had a large, vicious dog that was allowed to roam free, scaring the shit out of the 90 something year old white neighbor who had lived there for over 50 years. While her street has all black folks living on it now, most of whom are homeowners, the area is also racially diverse, despite having a lot of poverty near by. My friend and her husband have a nice little house and they paid off their mortgage several years ago.

Meanwhile, my sister has no black neighbors and I doubt there is a single black person in her town. it's a conservative town in New Jersey. I doubt any black professional would even want to live in such a place. My middle class neighborhood here in Indiana is somewhat racially diverse although it appears as if it's still majority white. So, I don't see any evidence of redlining these days, at least not in any of the places where I've lived in the past 20 or so years. Racism still exists, but let's not make up assumptions based on the distant past. Sadly, the current administration is taking us back to the past where racism was a much bigger problem compared to recent years.

About 50 years ago, when my first husband and I wanted to buy a house in San Antonio, the realtor wouldn't take us into majority Mexican American neighborhoods, but there were at least home owners in those areas. I was shocked to learn about such bigotry, but that was over 50 years ago. I have no idea if that attitude exists these days. I've never had a realtor say anything like that since those days and every neighborhood I've had a home in, with the exception of Destin, Florida, had at least some racial diversity. We lived in Destin in the early 90s and I never saw any black folks there at all. Back then, it was very affordable. Actually, now that I think of it, a black couple considered buying our house when we planned on moving, but decided against it. I worked with the woman in home health. Maybe they were looking for more diversity. She was the field supervisor and I was the office supervisor.

Let me finish by saying that I personally know some white Trump supporters who don't seem to be the least bit racist. One takes her dog to visit her black next door neighbor every evening because the woman's own dog died and she has some health problems that would make it hard for her to care for a new one. The Trump supporter gets all of her news from Newsmax, something she told me when we had a friendly discussion prior to the last election. She seems to be a good person based on what I know about her. She's just a victim of misinformation and let's say she's not very educated or able to realize she's been had by a man who hates people like her. There are also quite a few white MAGAs on my street in Georgia and I've never heard any of them complain about our black neighbors. If they do have racist tendencies, they've done a good job of hiding them. All of our schools are very racially diverse, even the ones that are the best rated. I volunteered at one over 20 years ago and was happy to see the black and white kids getting along. Mr. Sohy did some substitute teaching for a year or two after being laid off from his engineering job when the plant closed down. He loved that elementary school too. Of course, some schools are more racially diverse compared to others, but if a small town in Georgia can have neighborhoods as racially diverse as mine, I don't see that redlining is still a thing these days. People were falling told that their houses would depreciate if black people moving onto heir street. My late father believed that bullshit and I have an ironic story about that. He moved to a more affluent town out of fear of that happening. Right after they move in, I saw that one of their neighbors was Black. He thought she was the housekeeper, but she was the owner. Her husband was a physician, if I remember correctly. I had a good laugh out of that. I think that helped him see things in a better light. Yes. My father, despite voting for Obama and meaning well, certainly did have some racist tendencies at least in his younger days, due to the influences of his youth, growing up in NJ and never even knowing any black people personally.

When I was in high school back in the 60s, there were only about 20 or so black kids in a school that had almost 3000 students. The ones I got to know were all above my socioeconomic class. Their fathers were doctors and lawyers, but they all lived in one small upper middle class part of town. I have no idea if that was their choice or if it was easier to get loans there. I've read that the city I grew up in is a lot more racially diverse compared to the 60s, based on an article I've read in the NYT. I hope it stays that way. it's a lot more middle class compared to my sister's uppity town.

My point is that we shouldn't make lots of assumptions about people regardless of their ethnicity. People who have never lived in the South don't realize how far most of it has progressed when it comes to racial equality. Imo, classism is more of a problem these days compared to racism, generally speaking. In fact, I just read an editorial that agreed with that. Poor people regardless of race are the most discriminated against, based on what I've seen and what I've read. Another black friend of mine left Georgia for Alabama, at least partly due to the lower cost of living. Plus that was her home and she has some family there.

There will always be people who hate anyone who is the least bit different from themselves, regardless of the reasons. And, just wait until you get old. You will realize that agism is the last acceptable form of bigotry in the US. Not everyone is ageist, but there is a lot of it in this country. Just think of how the younger people talking about the older ones in Congress. I support term limits, not age limits. Nobody should be in Congress for decades and no judge should be appointed for life. But, I digress. And yes. We need more racial diversity in Congress. That's for sure. It will be very difficult to accomplish with the current administration.
1. I agree that racism still is a big problem north of the Mason-Dixon and that up north, it’s more subtle, more insidious. I’ve seen things that frankly stunned me. It’s been a long time since I spent time down south so I cannot compare the two.

2. I understand the point about term limits for elected officials and judges. I used to feel the same. But the fact is that the workings of our government are so complex that we need a huge number of civil servants who actually are responsible for carrying out policy, etc. and making sure that law makers are aware of unintended consequences. If we limited our law makers to a few tears, the power of the civil servants would vastly increase as they would truly be the experts.

I have mixed feelings about term limits on judges. While there certainly are judges I think should not be in their position, that’s not usually because of their age or length of tenure.

The fact is that the law and all aspects of our society are supposed to move smoothly regardless of who is at the helm. We’re seeing right now what happens when we have an incompetent, malevolent fool in charge. Why do you think Trump wants to get rid of all the civil servants?
 
racism is much worse in the North compared to the South these days.

You won me over right here. The rest is just overkill. :ROFLMAO:
Now that I think about it, my first apartment was in Trenton, NJ, The black ghetto was right behind our building but every single tenant in our building, despite it being a piece of run down shit, was white. We lived in Trenton briefly in 1970, until the ex was drafted and sent to Texas. The place was so awful that the one time my father visited us, he became depressed that I lived in such a roach infested, run down apartment. I had a cat that killed the roaches so that helped. 😸 I even loaned the cat to my next door neighbor.

It didn't bother me in the least as I felt like I was finally an adult.
 
From what I understand, MAGA voters aren’t just standard Republicans, they genuinely believe America is in decline because “American values” are under threat. The targets they point to are things like DEI programs, Critical Race Theory, and so-called “handouts to the undeserving.” And when those handouts come up, the people imagined as “undeserving” usually aren’t white, even though white Americans are the largest group benefiting from government programs like Social Security, Medicare, student loans, and farm subsidies.

The same selective thinking shows up in debates about law enforcement. When MAGA folks bring up “crime,” they’re usually talking about minority communities. Their rhetoric paints liberal cities and states (especially California) as lawless, even though data shows many red states actually have higher violent crime rates. And while they obsess over “urban crime,” they say little about the drug and overdose crises devastating white America.

To be clear, when I say MAGA I don’t mean every Republican. For example, my wife voted for Trump, but she doesn’t buy into the DEI/CRT hysteria. She’s a more traditional Republican, like many others who haven’t realized how much the party has changed.

Honestly, it doesn’t matter to me how friendly someone is to minorities if they keep supporting a party whose policies harm them. That’s just my opinion, though, not something I’m saying everyone has to adopt.
 
Imagine a 400-meter race. At the starting gun, one runner takes off immediately. The other is held back at the starting line for two full laps, chained in place while the crowd cheers the first runner on. When the starter finally lets the second runner go, he’s exhausted before he even catches sight of his competitor. But now, some spectators in the stands, who didn’t say a word during those first two laps , start shouting: "Stop complaining! Just run faster! The race is fair now!" They act shocked when the late starter points out that being held back for half the race means it was never fair in the first place, and that catching up isn’t as simple as pretending those lost laps never happened.
Yeah, that is a very common metaphor used by proponents of racial preferences.
It only works if you assume that black people collectively, and white people collectively, have an identity, but actual individual people do not.

In reality, the 17 and 18 year olds applying to college today are not the same people who lived 100 years ago, and kinda-sorta look like certain people today.

Are there differences in achievement between races in the US? Yes. But the solution should be to identify core reasons for this, and not just give preference to certain people just because people who have a similar skin color (or whose ancestors spoke Spanish) perform worse on average.
 
Just to add because not everyone may be aware: there is a HUGE drug crisis in rural America abd it’s become generational with lots of now adults who grew up seeing their parents, especially their dads, dealing with any and all problems by doing drugs. Sometimes it begins innocently enough with someone being addicted to pain meds. But it becomes a general coping mechanism ( here I’m talking mostly about the illegal stuff) and kids grow up thinking this is either normal or just how things are for people like them.

It is most common when people think of poverty and lack of opportunity to think of inner cities which some people hold synonymous with black and Brian skinned people and poverty. Frankly, poverty rates are higher in rural America —and resources such as health care and hospitals are disappearing, meaning people have to drive long distances to get what little help is available. And mental health or addiction help? Forget about it!

That alone accounts for a huge amount of anger rural folks have towards urbanites, politicians and government in general. Its always easier to blame someone who looks different than you do or who grew up somewhere else.
 
Just to add because not everyone may be aware: there is a HUGE drug crisis in rural America abd it’s become generational with lots of now adults who grew up seeing their parents, especially their dads, dealing with any and all problems by doing drugs. Sometimes it begins innocently enough with someone being addicted to pain meds. But it becomes a general coping mechanism ( here I’m talking mostly about the illegal stuff) and kids grow up thinking this is either normal or just how things are for people like them.

It is most common when people think of poverty and lack of opportunity to think of inner cities which some people hold synonymous with black and Brian skinned people and poverty. Frankly, poverty rates are higher in rural America —and resources such as health care and hospitals are disappearing, meaning people have to drive long distances to get what little help is available. And mental health or addiction help? Forget about it!

That alone accounts for a huge amount of anger rural folks have towards urbanites, politicians and government in general. Its always easier to blame someone who looks different than you do or who grew up somewhere else.
I wonder if the government crack down on legal opiates for pain management has hurt more than helped this situation but I haven't researched it yet.
 
Well, that isn't my question. The thread started off as reasons why some regret voting for Trump.
Well, it was spun off from that thread for a reason.
Do you think that some of the MAGA people rue their vote because they miss AA or DEI?
I think it is the opposite.
AA is very unpopular. An effort to reinstate it by referendum failed even in hyperliberal Florida.

But the Biden administration leaned into it. Biden limited himself to pick black women for running mate and SCOTUS. His federal judgeship appointments were mostly non-white. Not because those were the qualified candidates, but to promote "equity".
And when SCOTUS ruled against AA, he called the court illegitimate.

So if anything, AA helped Trump win in 2024 bigly.
 
Imagine a 400-meter race. At the starting gun, one runner takes off immediately. The other is held back at the starting line for two full laps, chained in place while the crowd cheers the first runner on. When the starter finally lets the second runner go, he’s exhausted before he even catches sight of his competitor. But now, some spectators in the stands, who didn’t say a word during those first two laps , start shouting: "Stop complaining! Just run faster! The race is fair now!" They act shocked when the late starter points out that being held back for half the race means it was never fair in the first place, and that catching up isn’t as simple as pretending those lost laps never happened.
Yeah, that is a very common metaphor used by proponents of racial preferences.
It only works if you assume that black people collectively, and white people collectively, have an identity, but actual individual people do not.

In reality, the 17 and 18 year olds applying to college today are not the same people who lived 100 years ago, and kinda-sorta look like certain people today.

Are there differences in achievement between races in the US? Yes. But the solution should be to identify core reasons for this, and not just give preference to certain people just because people who have a similar skin color (or whose ancestors spoke Spanish) perform worse on average.

You’re speak on Affirmative Action like it’s just a “Black vs. white” policy, but that’s never been true. White women have consistently been its biggest beneficiaries. It also covers Latinos, Asians, Indigenous students, veterans, and even people from under-resourced schools. So when you say, “don’t just give preference based on skin color,” that’s not what’s happening. It’s about addressing structural barriers that impact multiple groups, not handing out favors because of what someone “looks like.” The race metaphor works because wealth, education, and opportunity are generationally inherited, not individually reset at age 18. :rolleyes:
 
But it doesn’t work that way for everyone. And less so if you were not born to a well educated set of middle to upper middle class white parents who were able to foster your ambitions and support them while you grew up. Nice gig if you can get it but frankly, if you did not do well under those circumstances, that would raise some eyebrows. Not that I don’t know some people who grew up in a similar situation who have not ‘made it’ but who still struggle economically as they approach retirement. I have my opinions in the case of the individuals I’m thinking, of course.

But lots and lots of people did not grow up with your advantages. And lots of people grew up with hundreds of years worth of racism affecting everything about their lives, including the assumptions that whatever they managed to achieve was because of unfair advantages of AA which is the weirdest projection —and most convenient—done by white people .
I've never said the system works for everybody. It most certainly does not. The problem is that you persist on blaming it on discrimination.
 
Well, that isn't my question. The thread started off as reasons why some regret voting for Trump.
Well, it was spun off from that thread for a reason.
Do you think that some of the MAGA people rue their vote because they miss AA or DEI?
I think it is the opposite.
AA is very unpopular. An effort to reinstate it by referendum failed even in hyperliberal Florida.

But the Biden administration leaned into it. Biden limited himself to pick black women for running mate and SCOTUS. His federal judgeship appointments were mostly non-white. Not because those were the qualified candidates, but to promote "equity".
And when SCOTUS ruled against AA, he called the court illegitimate.

So if anything, AA helped Trump win in 2024 bigly.

  • Pretends AA = only Black people.
  • Pretends Biden’s picks were “unqualified” because they weren’t white.
  • Pretends culture war panic is the “voice of the people,” instead of a manufactured outrage.

Every time AA or DEI comes up, you laser-focus on Black people, as if they’re the only ones who benefit, or the only ones who ever got considered. That tells your story. Biden’s appointees weren’t ‘unqualified,’ they just weren’t white. :ROFLMAO: That’s what actually bothers people. Also Trump didn’t win 2024 ‘bigly’ because of Affirmative Action. He won because culture war panic has become the entire Republican platform.
 
So, if AA is "class based" rather than "to ace based", and leads to many more black folks going to school, apparently Republicans still fucking hate it?

Apparently, the fact that more disadvantaged students happen to be black is the reason for them deciding there are 'racial proxies' involved. Well no shit! Class is a loose proxy for race. Because of systemic racism.
But no evidence is provided for your last sentence.

Is class a proxy for race, or race a proxy for class? It's taken on faith that it's discrimination but the research almost always fails to consider the relationship--yet there is unquestionably a relationship.
 
The trump voters I know personally, are either ignorant, well educated wealthy people, extremist Christians, or in the case of a few, including the nephew of a black friend of mine, won’t vote for a woman. The guy across the street from us in Georgia told us he hated both candidates but decided to vote for Trump. Go figure! Why did so many black and Latino men vote for trump?


You don’t have to love a candidate or a party to figure out that one candidate is much worse than the other one. I have never really loved any candidate I ever supported, with the exception of Stacy Abrams, who almost beat Kemp the first time she ran for governor. Stacy had the support of all kinds of people. Much to my delight, there were a lot of older white men at the rally she held in my small city. She visited all of the counties in Georgia, but still ended up losing to a conservative man, who now sucks up to a felon.
 
Which is why quotas and discrimination keep losing in courts.

To put it more accurately: they’re illegal. Anyone claiming otherwise, or arguing as if quotas exist, is either misinformed or deliberately spreading misinformation.
The problem is that while they are illegal they are also required if you don't want to be accused of racism.
 
So, if AA is "class based" rather than "to ace based", and leads to many more black folks going to school, apparently Republicans still fucking hate it?

Apparently, the fact that more disadvantaged students happen to be black is the reason for them deciding there are 'racial proxies' involved. Well no shit! Class is a loose proxy for race. Because of systemic racism.
But no evidence is provided for your last sentence.

Is class a proxy for race, or race a proxy for class? It's taken on faith that it's discrimination but the research almost always fails to consider the relationship--yet there is unquestionably a relationship.
Dude, we know it happened. The history is observed. "Systemic racism" here is exactly the racially imbalanced ongoing momentum of the system since overt and direct racism went "into the woodwork".

Do you think things as massive and full of exotic forces as society and as full of momentum as the beliefs of people passed not by words but by actions, and tone, and generationally learned behavior and often abuse just vanish overnight? Do you think the scars and economic momentum of those events, events we know happened, go away overnight?
 

Oh, so the winner doesn’t pass down prize money, sponsorships, better coaching, or access to top facilities to the next racers because of that head start? Riiight. :rolleyes:
The problem with this is that most people receive no meaningful inheritance. It isn't passed down, other than in attitudes and genetics. Very few receive more than college and most people do not get even that. Most inheritance is later in life long after the die is cast. The big difference is the attitudes.

Yes, the inner cities have big problems. Discrimination probably played a role in how it came to be, but it is not being perpetuated by discrimination. You can't fix it by removing the original cause, you need to fix what it perpetuating it. And that has no convenient villain to blame. The match lit the candle, but do you extinguish the candle by removing the match??

you are saying that because someone was held back in a previous race that the fair thing to do is hold back a different person in this race.

Affirmative Action isn’t about holding runners back, it’s about making sure chains aren’t put on certain runners in the first place. What you’re alluding to are quotas, and those are illegal. Pushing the idea that they exist is the same tired tactic white supremacists use against minorities. And you still don’t seem to recognize that the primary beneficiaries of Affirmative Action have been white women.
It supposedly is about avoiding chains. The problem is that the metric has become the goal. We no longer look for chains, we assume that any disparate outcome is due to chains. (And conveniently ignore how Asians on average outperform whites.)

Why is it only those of us against AA that favor truly colorblind approaches?
 

That’s not a “dumb question,” Harry, that’s a fantasy question. I’m literally the last person in the universe who’d assume MAGA voters to suddenly grow a conscience over DEI. They’re celebrating killing it, even if it means burning down their own future in the process. Which they are btw. Just like Affirmative Action, the primary beneficiaries aren’t even Black folks, it’s white women first, then Latinos,, then Asians, then veterans, then the disabled, then LGBTQ. Only after all that do you even start to see Black people show up in statistics. :rolleyes:

And if you missed the memo, I despise both the Republican and Democratic parties. Neither has done much over the last decade except answer to big money. I’m sure their loyalists will jump up to rattle off all the “good” things they’ve done over the years. I don’t care. Money needs to get the hell out of politics. Period.
But look at why those women and those Asians got the primary benefits: no cultural issues holding them back. You look at the failure to help blacks and demand more rather than recognize that it's not the problem. Removing the chains worked very well--but it's been done. There are no meaningful chains of discrimination remaining.
 
2. I understand the point about term limits for elected officials and judges. I used to feel the same. But the fact is that the workings of our government are so complex that we need a huge number of civil servants who actually are responsible for carrying out policy, etc. and making sure that law makers are aware of unintended consequences. If we limited our law makers to a few tears, the power of the civil servants would vastly increase as they would truly be the experts.
Yeah. Politicians are not good at actually running a country. It's bad enough that I question whether we should even have them trying to run things. Instead, elect the various representatives, they get together and pick the experts to put in charge of things, then they go home. Think of the Cabinet, extend the idea.
 
Yeah, that is a very common metaphor used by proponents of racial preferences.
It only works if you assume that black people collectively, and white people collectively, have an identity, but actual individual people do not.
It doesn't preclude an individual identity, it just considers the collective identity more important. But that doesn't change the nature of the wrong.
 
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