The data shows a very strong correlation, but it doesn't prove the direction. In the past it was unquestionably caused by racism but that doesn't prove that it still is.
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Affirmative Action (split from Are people already regretting their choice?)
- Thread starter Loren Pechtel
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The reich wing certainly has been using it for that.
Toni
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I think that I really struggle with your inability to see anything that does not correlate with your own experience and opinions.
Redlining absolutely still exists although perhaps more subtly than when I first encountered it when we purchased our first home a few decades ago. Our realtor definitely told us we did NOT want to buy in certain neighborhoods/municipalities which were less expensive and instead definitely steered us towards all white areas as more desirable. She did fall in line when I found a house I was interested in in a more diverse area with the same excellent school system, mostly because it was fairly obvious that we were interested in that particular house, mostly because we could afford it, it had enough bedrooms and an excellent t school system. Btw, our friends from the old neighborhood were torn about whether to be envious that we could afford such a large ( not very) house and horrified that we moved ‘over the line’ into that neighborhood—something they never consider. I wonder how it would have played out if we had stayed but my husband really hated his job so…
My son felt certain that he was seen as a highly desirable buyer because he was white and buying a home in a mixed neighborhood.
It should not ever matter but in many places, it does.
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Imagine a 400-meter race. At the starting gun, one runner takes off immediately. The other is held back at the starting line for two full laps, chained in place while the crowd cheers the first runner on. When the starter finally lets the second runner go, he’s exhausted before he even catches sight of his competitor. But now, some spectators in the stands, who didn’t say a word during those first two laps , start shouting: "Stop complaining! Just run faster! The race is fair now!" They act shocked when the late starter points out that being held back for half the race means it was never fair in the first place, and that catching up isn’t as simple as pretending those lost laps never happened.
Harry Bosch
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Super dumb question! But is this thread assuming that there are some MAGA voters who regret their vote, because they feel guilty that DEI and AA are going away? Are you assuming that if the left embraces giving minorities a head start; that the white middle class workers will flock back to the left? If so, I think that this is wildly out of touch.
Toni
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AFAIK, ‘the left’ which seems to include me, dues not support giving minorities a head start. Affirmative Action, to me, means giving minorities access to jobs, education, etc. that has been previously denied them because they are not of primarily or wholly European descent.
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It is my understanding that AA is supposed to help and encourage minorities to aid them in getting job or educational opportunities, not to put them ahead of the line through quotas and discrimination. Which is why quotas and discrimination keep losing in courts.
Harry Bosch
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Well, that isn't my question. The thread started off as reasons why some regret voting for Trump. Do you think that some of the MAGA people rue their vote because they miss AA or DEI?
Toni
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Ah, as far as I know, few people who voted for Trump regret voting for him, period. One notable exception is the person I read quoted who claimed they voted for Trump because he promised to support ( financially) IVF, a promise he seems to have….forgotten? dropped? never intended to fulfill?
The problem is that you envision it as a race.
No, it's a bunch of races. It's being run over and over and over (each race is between those born in a given year) and you are saying that because someone was held back in a previous race that the fair thing to do is hold back a different person in this race.
Think of the post a while back comparing equality and equity.
"Equity" amounts to disparate outcomes is proof of discrimination. But that assumes you have a perfect measure of the factors involved--and we consistently see that our measures are far from perfect as the vast majority of "proof" of "discrimination" fails to account for obvious confounders. Without such measurements it's punishing people for sharing characteristics with successful people--and that is clearly discrimination.
You say that you don't agree with disparate outcomes being proof of discrimination, but you then promptly turn around and use disparate outcomes as proof of discrimination. And when you make it a guilty until proven innocent you end up from a practical standpoint mandating quotas.
The problem is that you're damned if you use quotas or the like, but you're also damned if you fail to ensure to meet those quotas you're not supposed to use. Normally we take an innocent until proven guilty approach but if your workforce isn't diverse enough it's guilty until proven innocent.
Toni
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It’s interesting to me how you can spin pov out of thin air and attribute them to me in order to justify your own bigotries.
We all get it: You are a blonde, blue eyed white male who was raised by well educated parent in an intact home which was middle to upper middle class ( cool!) so you don’t see why everyone else doesn’t think the system works just fine.
But it doesn’t work that way for everyone. And less so if you were not born to a well educated set of middle to upper middle class white parents who were able to foster your ambitions and support them while you grew up. Nice gig if you can get it but frankly, if you did not do well under those circumstances, that would raise some eyebrows. Not that I don’t know some people who grew up in a similar situation who have not ‘made it’ but who still struggle economically as they approach retirement. I have my opinions in the case of the individuals I’m thinking, of course.
But lots and lots of people did not grow up with your advantages. And lots of people grew up with hundreds of years worth of racism affecting everything about their lives, including the assumptions that whatever they managed to achieve was because of unfair advantages of AA which is the weirdest projection —and most convenient—done by white people .
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So, if AA is "class based" rather than "to ace based", and leads to many more black folks going to school, apparently Republicans still fucking hate it?
Apparently, the fact that more disadvantaged students happen to be black is the reason for them deciding there are 'racial proxies' involved. Well no shit! Class is a loose proxy for race. Because of systemic racism.
Apparently, the fact that more disadvantaged students happen to be black is the reason for them deciding there are 'racial proxies' involved. Well no shit! Class is a loose proxy for race. Because of systemic racism.
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Oh, so the winner doesn’t pass down prize money, sponsorships, better coaching, or access to top facilities to the next racers because of that head start? Riiight.
Affirmative Action isn’t about holding runners back, it’s about making sure chains aren’t put on certain runners in the first place. What you’re alluding to are quotas, and those are illegal. Pushing the idea that they exist is the same tired tactic white supremacists use against minorities. And you still don’t seem to recognize that the primary beneficiaries of Affirmative Action have been white women.
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That’s not a “dumb question,” Harry, that’s a fantasy question. I’m literally the last person in the universe who’d assume MAGA voters to suddenly grow a conscience over DEI. They’re celebrating killing it, even if it means burning down their own future in the process. Which they are btw. Just like Affirmative Action, the primary beneficiaries aren’t even Black folks, it’s white women first, then Latinos,, then Asians, then veterans, then the disabled, then LGBTQ. Only after all that do you even start to see Black people show up in statistics.
And if you missed the memo, I despise both the Republican and Democratic parties. Neither has done much over the last decade except answer to big money. I’m sure their loyalists will jump up to rattle off all the “good” things they’ve done over the years. I don’t care. Money needs to get the hell out of politics. Period.
southernhybrid
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I'd just like to say a few words about the history of racism in the South v. the Northeast. Imo, and in the opinion of many Black people I've known or have worked with, who have lived in or spent a lot of time in the Northeast, all agree with me that racism is much worse in the North compared to the South these days. Of course, there are exceptions and Southern racists are much more obvious about their racism. That is something one former black coworker told me many years ago. She said she'd take a Southern racist over a Northern racist any day of the week because at least she knew were she stood with the Southern racist. I also met a black nurse who told me the same thing.
I'm extremely aware of the history of redlining and perhaps it still exists in some areas today, but my neighborhood in Georgia started becoming racially diverse around 2003, when my first black neighbor bought a house two doors down from me. Like me, she's an RN. My newest next door neighbors are a lovely mixed race couple with four kids, 3 who are young adults. There is a former black cop two doors from them, who now works as a security guard making more money. Then next to him was a city employee who decided he liked living in a rural area, but he sold his lovely home to a black family, and he made quite a bit of money on it, after updating it himself. There is also a black firefighter around the corner, a mixed race couple two doors from the RN, and a retired military officer near the end of my street. There are more black neighbors who I've never met and while the neighborhood is still majority white, we've come a long way. There are even black families living on the most desirable, most expensive street in my town. I've seen them walking their dogs etc.
I tease a close black friend who lives on the other side of town, that she needs more white neighbors since the last remaining one on her street moved out about 2 years ago. They moved because the renter next door had a large, vicious dog that was allowed to roam free, scaring the shit out of the 90 something year old white neighbor who had lived there for over 50 years. While her street has all black folks living on it now, most of whom are homeowners, the area is also racially diverse, despite having a lot of poverty near by. My friend and her husband have a nice little house and they paid off their mortgage several years ago.
Meanwhile, my sister has no black neighbors and I doubt there is a single black person in her town. it's a conservative town in New Jersey. I doubt any black professional would even want to live in such a place. My middle class neighborhood here in Indiana is somewhat racially diverse although it appears as if it's still majority white. So, I don't see any evidence of redlining these days, at least not in any of the places where I've lived in the past 20 or so years. Racism still exists, but let's not make up assumptions based on the distant past. Sadly, the current administration is taking us back to the past where racism was a much bigger problem compared to recent years.
About 50 years ago, when my first husband and I wanted to buy a house in San Antonio, the realtor wouldn't take us into majority Mexican American neighborhoods, but there were at least home owners in those areas. I was shocked to learn about such bigotry, but that was over 50 years ago. I have no idea if that attitude exists these days. I've never had a realtor say anything like that since those days and every neighborhood I've had a home in, with the exception of Destin, Florida, had at least some racial diversity. We lived in Destin in the early 90s and I never saw any black folks there at all. Back then, it was very affordable. Actually, now that I think of it, a black couple considered buying our house when we planned on moving, but decided against it. I worked with the woman in home health. Maybe they were looking for more diversity. She was the field supervisor and I was the office supervisor.
Let me finish by saying that I personally know some white Trump supporters who don't seem to be the least bit racist. One takes her dog to visit her black next door neighbor every evening because the woman's own dog died and she has some health problems that would make it hard for her to care for a new one. The Trump supporter gets all of her news from Newsmax, something she told me when we had a friendly discussion prior to the last election. She seems to be a good person based on what I know about her. She's just a victim of misinformation and let's say she's not very educated or able to realize she's been had by a man who hates people like her. There are also quite a few white MAGAs on my street in Georgia and I've never heard any of them complain about our black neighbors. If they do have racist tendencies, they've done a good job of hiding them. All of our schools are very racially diverse, even the ones that are the best rated. I volunteered at one over 20 years ago and was happy to see the black and white kids getting along. Mr. Sohy did some substitute teaching for a year or two after being laid off from his engineering job when the plant closed down. He loved that elementary school too. Of course, some schools are more racially diverse compared to others, but if a small town in Georgia can have neighborhoods as racially diverse as mine, I don't see that redlining is still a thing these days. People were falling told that their houses would depreciate if black people moving onto heir street. My late father believed that bullshit and I have an ironic story about that. He moved to a more affluent town out of fear of that happening. Right after they move in, I saw that one of their neighbors was Black. He thought she was the housekeeper, but she was the owner. Her husband was a physician, if I remember correctly. I had a good laugh out of that. I think that helped him see things in a better light. Yes. My father, despite voting for Obama and meaning well, certainly did have some racist tendencies at least in his younger days, due to the influences of his youth, growing up in NJ and never even knowing any black people personally.
When I was in high school back in the 60s, there were only about 20 or so black kids in a school that had almost 3000 students. The ones I got to know were all above my socioeconomic class. Their fathers were doctors and lawyers, but they all lived in one small upper middle class part of town. I have no idea if that was their choice or if it was easier to get loans there. I've read that the city I grew up in is a lot more racially diverse compared to the 60s, based on an article I've read in the NYT. I hope it stays that way. it's a lot more middle class compared to my sister's uppity town.
My point is that we shouldn't make lots of assumptions about people regardless of their ethnicity. People who have never lived in the South don't realize how far most of it has progressed when it comes to racial equality. Imo, classism is more of a problem these days compared to racism, generally speaking. In fact, I just read an editorial that agreed with that. Poor people regardless of race are the most discriminated against, based on what I've seen and what I've read. Another black friend of mine left Georgia for Alabama, at least partly due to the lower cost of living. Plus that was her home and she has some family there.
There will always be people who hate anyone who is the least bit different from themselves, regardless of the reasons. And, just wait until you get old. You will realize that agism is the last acceptable form of bigotry in the US. Not everyone is ageist, but there is a lot of it in this country. Just think of how the younger people talking about the older ones in Congress. I support term limits, not age limits. Nobody should be in Congress for decades and no judge should be appointed for life. But, I digress. And yes. We need more racial diversity in Congress. That's for sure. It will be very difficult to accomplish with the current administration.
I'm extremely aware of the history of redlining and perhaps it still exists in some areas today, but my neighborhood in Georgia started becoming racially diverse around 2003, when my first black neighbor bought a house two doors down from me. Like me, she's an RN. My newest next door neighbors are a lovely mixed race couple with four kids, 3 who are young adults. There is a former black cop two doors from them, who now works as a security guard making more money. Then next to him was a city employee who decided he liked living in a rural area, but he sold his lovely home to a black family, and he made quite a bit of money on it, after updating it himself. There is also a black firefighter around the corner, a mixed race couple two doors from the RN, and a retired military officer near the end of my street. There are more black neighbors who I've never met and while the neighborhood is still majority white, we've come a long way. There are even black families living on the most desirable, most expensive street in my town. I've seen them walking their dogs etc.
I tease a close black friend who lives on the other side of town, that she needs more white neighbors since the last remaining one on her street moved out about 2 years ago. They moved because the renter next door had a large, vicious dog that was allowed to roam free, scaring the shit out of the 90 something year old white neighbor who had lived there for over 50 years. While her street has all black folks living on it now, most of whom are homeowners, the area is also racially diverse, despite having a lot of poverty near by. My friend and her husband have a nice little house and they paid off their mortgage several years ago.
Meanwhile, my sister has no black neighbors and I doubt there is a single black person in her town. it's a conservative town in New Jersey. I doubt any black professional would even want to live in such a place. My middle class neighborhood here in Indiana is somewhat racially diverse although it appears as if it's still majority white. So, I don't see any evidence of redlining these days, at least not in any of the places where I've lived in the past 20 or so years. Racism still exists, but let's not make up assumptions based on the distant past. Sadly, the current administration is taking us back to the past where racism was a much bigger problem compared to recent years.
About 50 years ago, when my first husband and I wanted to buy a house in San Antonio, the realtor wouldn't take us into majority Mexican American neighborhoods, but there were at least home owners in those areas. I was shocked to learn about such bigotry, but that was over 50 years ago. I have no idea if that attitude exists these days. I've never had a realtor say anything like that since those days and every neighborhood I've had a home in, with the exception of Destin, Florida, had at least some racial diversity. We lived in Destin in the early 90s and I never saw any black folks there at all. Back then, it was very affordable. Actually, now that I think of it, a black couple considered buying our house when we planned on moving, but decided against it. I worked with the woman in home health. Maybe they were looking for more diversity. She was the field supervisor and I was the office supervisor.
Let me finish by saying that I personally know some white Trump supporters who don't seem to be the least bit racist. One takes her dog to visit her black next door neighbor every evening because the woman's own dog died and she has some health problems that would make it hard for her to care for a new one. The Trump supporter gets all of her news from Newsmax, something she told me when we had a friendly discussion prior to the last election. She seems to be a good person based on what I know about her. She's just a victim of misinformation and let's say she's not very educated or able to realize she's been had by a man who hates people like her. There are also quite a few white MAGAs on my street in Georgia and I've never heard any of them complain about our black neighbors. If they do have racist tendencies, they've done a good job of hiding them. All of our schools are very racially diverse, even the ones that are the best rated. I volunteered at one over 20 years ago and was happy to see the black and white kids getting along. Mr. Sohy did some substitute teaching for a year or two after being laid off from his engineering job when the plant closed down. He loved that elementary school too. Of course, some schools are more racially diverse compared to others, but if a small town in Georgia can have neighborhoods as racially diverse as mine, I don't see that redlining is still a thing these days. People were falling told that their houses would depreciate if black people moving onto heir street. My late father believed that bullshit and I have an ironic story about that. He moved to a more affluent town out of fear of that happening. Right after they move in, I saw that one of their neighbors was Black. He thought she was the housekeeper, but she was the owner. Her husband was a physician, if I remember correctly. I had a good laugh out of that. I think that helped him see things in a better light. Yes. My father, despite voting for Obama and meaning well, certainly did have some racist tendencies at least in his younger days, due to the influences of his youth, growing up in NJ and never even knowing any black people personally.
When I was in high school back in the 60s, there were only about 20 or so black kids in a school that had almost 3000 students. The ones I got to know were all above my socioeconomic class. Their fathers were doctors and lawyers, but they all lived in one small upper middle class part of town. I have no idea if that was their choice or if it was easier to get loans there. I've read that the city I grew up in is a lot more racially diverse compared to the 60s, based on an article I've read in the NYT. I hope it stays that way. it's a lot more middle class compared to my sister's uppity town.
My point is that we shouldn't make lots of assumptions about people regardless of their ethnicity. People who have never lived in the South don't realize how far most of it has progressed when it comes to racial equality. Imo, classism is more of a problem these days compared to racism, generally speaking. In fact, I just read an editorial that agreed with that. Poor people regardless of race are the most discriminated against, based on what I've seen and what I've read. Another black friend of mine left Georgia for Alabama, at least partly due to the lower cost of living. Plus that was her home and she has some family there.
There will always be people who hate anyone who is the least bit different from themselves, regardless of the reasons. And, just wait until you get old. You will realize that agism is the last acceptable form of bigotry in the US. Not everyone is ageist, but there is a lot of it in this country. Just think of how the younger people talking about the older ones in Congress. I support term limits, not age limits. Nobody should be in Congress for decades and no judge should be appointed for life. But, I digress. And yes. We need more racial diversity in Congress. That's for sure. It will be very difficult to accomplish with the current administration.
Toni
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Bolded part times a billion.
That’s not a “dumb question,” Harry, that’s a fantasy question. I’m literally the last person in the universe who’d assume MAGA voters to suddenly grow a conscience over DEI. They’re celebrating killing it, even if it means burning down their own future in the process. Which they are btw. Just like Affirmative Action, the primary beneficiaries aren’t even Black folks, it’s white women first, then Latinos,, then Asians, then veterans, then the disabled, then LGBTQ. Only after all that do you even start to see Black people show up in statistics.
And if you missed the memo, I despise both the Republican and Democratic parties. Neither has done much over the last decade except answer to big money. I’m sure their loyalists will jump up to rattle off all the “good” things they’ve done over the years. I don’t care. Money needs to get the hell out of politics. Period.