Fat-shaming, fat acceptance, and 'body diversity'.

[DrZoidberg]

Morbid obesity is a choice... depending on who you talk to. I don't know about obesity. How much is caused by genetics for some, environment for others, sheer laziness for others.

Calling it a choice is cruel. We're ruled by a whole host of genetically programmed behaviours. An extremely strong one is culture. If you live in an environment where you are surrounded by people with bad eating habits you are much more likely to also start eating badly. These are very strong pre-programmed behaviour patterns. If the "choice" is between following what your instincts tell you or to be unhappy, it's not really a choice. We, in the free and liberal west, commonly live in the illusion that all humans are free agents who can freely chose between rational choices. Well... pretty much any research into any human behaviour tells us that virtually all people mostly do dumb irrational shit. Most of it is geared toward eating, conserving energy, fucking or triggering other cheap dopamine responses.

Overweight is the result of a whole system of behaviours calibrated to fit a certain lifestyle. They get created over a long time, and they take years of systematic work to break. Any human habit is the same in that regard. But food is one of the hardest. If you were lucky to have been given healthy habits early on, it's just luck. Just like a person who has grown up in a family of successful entrepreneurs is more likely to, themselves, become a successful entrepreneur. It's an entire system of patterns all re-enforcing one another.

In almost none of the cases of over-weight is it down to diseases. It's nearly always culture. Unless depression counts as a disease. A very common cause of obesity.

 

[TSwizzle]

If the feminist push were merely to decry fat-shaming, I'd understand it. I endured endless torment growing up over being overweight and it did nada to help me. But many feminists want models and TV shows and movies to show people with all kinds of body sizes.

I don't know if it is feminists or not but I have seen a few opinion pieces that try to convince us that fat folks are just as sexy as not fat folk and should be proud of beinf fat. There was an article in the Guardian the other day that featured photographs from Leonard Nimoy's collection of Fat Naked Women Guardian. You appear to be a realist and acknowledge, being very fat is not attractive to the vast majority of people, it's very unhealthy and as far as I am concerned, not something to be proud of. But there are opposite extremes presented on TV all the time that are just not realistic. There are not too many characters in tv shows that have average bodies and the overweight ones are usually there for comedy effect. For health reasons alone it is very important you get your weight down. I can't understand how people get so obese or why they allow it. I knew a really big woman who sincerely didn't understand why she was as big as she was. "I don't eat that much, I can't understand it." Until somebody said "It might have something to do with the chips, chocolate, donuts and coke you pack away ya fat ***" before she understood it. She didn't change her eating habits, she just didn't voice her lack of understanding as to why she was gaining weight. Is that "fat shaming" ? Well it was impolite to phrase it that way but christ, reality has to be acknowledged at least. You are correct, being fat is nothing to celebrate. It's up to you to take baby steps to shed some of that weight. It doesn't have to be drastic, just take in fewer calories than you do now and get a bit of exercise. Cut out fast food where possible, look for things that you eat as a treat. Say you have ice cream, drop that and have a greek yogurt with some fruit. Try smoothies for lunch.

 

[ronburgundy]

Metaphor, I largely (pun intended) agree with you. I am also "obese", 6' 3'', broad frame and 260 lbs. BMI, calculators claim the "normal" range for someone 6' 3" is 148 - 199. That seems absurd to me that 148 is normal for 6' 3". When I was 190, I was as thin as I would want to be.

Anyway, I am fat for 2 simple reasons:
1. My metabolism has always been slow, even when skinny. Friends who worked out the same as me, were shorter, and ate as much as me stayed skinny while I gained weight.
2. I am a hedonist that lives for simple pleasures.
I don't exercise much, because I do not enjoy "working out". I do enjoy sports but at 45 and in a harsh outdoor climate it is tough to maintain connection with a group of people where I could play enough sport to matter. Also I love food, and especially high calorie craft microbrewery beers. Although I rarely snack and I do not eat massive portions, I eat lots of "comfort" food, and I drink lots of high calorie beers on a daily basis. Experiencing new foods and beers is my (and my wife's) primary hobby and passion. I really hate it when people spew psycho-babble about overweight people using food to fill some "deeper" void. There is nothing "deeper" than well crafted beer or a perfectly braised short rib. They are in fact what life is about and are as "profound" as anything else. Its the people that don't get pleasure from food who are at odds with natural and normal psychology. In most cases, being fat is the problem itself, not a symptom of some "deeper" problem.

As to body image, I agree that the notion that all body types are "beautiful" is bullshit. There are features that elicit arousal and attractions cross-culturally, and severe obesity is outside the range of what nearly all cultures have considered beautiful. Also, social status (such as being well fed in a starving society) is not the same as aesthetic beauty.
OTOH, culture certainly has some impact what is seen as beautiful and how people feel about their own body, and those images are only modestly related to what it healthy (being "cut" is largely unrelated to health). I don't care if ads show a narrow range of "beautiful" people. I am more bothered when beauty is selected over other qualities that should matter more (like talent, and acting ability). At most, the best actors are average looking. More likely, they are below average looking, because good acting requires empathy and understanding people and oneself, and I suspect people rewarded for their looks have less of those qualities on average.

Long live Phillip Seymour Hoffman! (or not)

p.s. It isn't that I seek social justice for ugly actors. I'm just tired of the endless parade of vacant eyed beauties polluting the screen and I want to be emotionally engaged and moved. It's about my own pleasure. After all, I'm a hedonist.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

If the feminist push were merely to decry fat-shaming, I'd understand it. I endured endless torment growing up over being overweight and it did nada to help me. But many feminists want models and TV shows and movies to show people with all kinds of body sizes.

Say you have ice cream, drop that and have a greek yogurt with some fruit.

I don't understand that advice. While the yogurt / fruit would be healthier and have vitamins and protein, the calorie exchange is about equal and wouldn't help lose weight.

 

[Metaphor]

I can't understand how people get so obese or why they allow it.

Obesity is not an item on the shelf at the supermarket that you can choose to buy or not buy.

 

[Metaphor]

So that is how I see it. I could be fat, but I choose not to. How much of a choice it is for others, I haven't a clue, but for many they think they have that clue and judge. For me though, I don't judge, I just have the instinctual first conception that comes to mind about it.

I don't believe in libertarian free will, so I don't regard my overall state as freely 'chosen', although I acknowledge that as an adult, no outside force is compelling me to go through the KFC drive through: it's my own brain that's doing it.

 

[Metaphor]

Metaphor,
Do you feel bullied?

Right now? No. Outside primary school and high school, people rarely have the gumption to bully me to my face.

But I'm aware of how people react to obesity, although I'm not fully aware of how I come across to people (after all, they're the ones looking at me, I don't have that experience).

 

[Metaphor]

Metaphor

As a woman who has spent the majority of her life either overweight or obese, I know where you are. At my heaviest I was over 300 lbs and wore an American size 28W. I now wear a misses size 12 and am actually considered smaller than average in comparison to the rest of the US female population.

If you want to know how I lost the weight, I will tell you, if you don't, I won't. But I will tell you this. You have got to make peace with the fat. From what I'm reading, you have not done that. Until you make peace with the fat, you can't make peace with reasons for the fat and you will yo-yo until you die. And you will never be happy.

Let me know what you want you to do. Feel free to pm me if that is more comfortable for you.

Thank you for your expression of support (and to all the others who have done the same).

Athena, I'm not really sure what it would mean to make peace with the fat. Can you elaborate?

 

[TSwizzle]

Say you have ice cream, drop that and have a greek yogurt with some fruit.

I don't understand that advice. While the yogurt / fruit would be healthier and have vitamins and protein, the calorie exchange is about equal and wouldn't help lose weight.

Not really. The same serving size of ice cream usually has more calories and contain a large amount of crap I find.

I can't understand how people get so obese or why they allow it.

Obesity is not an item on the shelf at the supermarket that you can choose to buy or not buy.

That's not exactly what I said but if if you are obese, it's because you eat too much, probably too much crap and don't do enough exercise. So in effect, you can actually get obesity off the supermarket shelf. It often comes in the format of frozen pizza and the like.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

So that is how I see it. I could be fat, but I choose not to. How much of a choice it is for others, I haven't a clue, but for many they think they have that clue and judge. For me though, I don't judge, I just have the instinctual first conception that comes to mind about it.

I don't believe in libertarian free will, so I don't regard my overall state as freely 'chosen', although I acknowledge that as an adult, no outside force is compelling me to go through the KFC drive through: it's my own brain that's doing it.

A person typically chooses their portion sizes. How the body metabolizes it is less in a person's control (though not entirely).

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I don't understand that advice. While the yogurt / fruit would be healthier and have vitamins and protein, the calorie exchange is about equal and wouldn't help lose weight.

Not really. The same serving size of ice cream usually has more calories and contain a large amount of crap I find.

I suppose you are correct. There will probably be about a 100 calorie savings. But still, if you are trying to lose weight, you may want to not have dessert period.

 

[TSwizzle]

Not really. The same serving size of ice cream usually has more calories and contain a large amount of crap I find.

I suppose you are correct. There will probably be about a 100 calorie savings. But still, if you are trying to lose weight, you may want to not have dessert period.

Missing dessert would be the best but for some, that hit of something nice in the form of a slice of 600 calorie mud pie with ice cream replaced with some yogurt and fruit (150 calories) might be a tasty alternative. Baby steps.

 

[ZiprHead]

Metaphor,
Do you feel bullied?

Right now? No. Outside primary school and high school, people rarely have the gumption to bully me to my face.

But I'm aware of how people react to obesity, although I'm not fully aware of how I come across to people (after all, they're the ones looking at me, I don't have that experience).

I too was bullied quite a bit when I was young. Caused me to be quite shy around women. I got a job working around a lot of women after high school when most women were more mature. I actually developed a pretty good gift of gab with women from that experience. I actually had one co-worker whom, If I had given her the okay, might have left her husband for me. Her feelings for me were quite the gossip around work but I was already in a relationship with my soon to be wife.

 

[Thomas II]

I am going to start with a confession.

I am morbidly obese. I've been a long time member of talkfreethought and its previous iterations, but most people on the board probably don't know anything about my body size. And, now that you know, it probably changes your perception of me. Well, it has to change your perception by definition because you now have more information. But I think the new perception might be more negative.

I occassionally read posts on feministing and other feminist sites, and I've noticed a very strong push towards celebrating 'body diversity' and 'beauty at any size' and other similar sentiments.

Fat-shaming somebody is basically dehumanising, callous, and generally mean-spirited. It also doesn't work for fatties (I've decided to reclaim the language) like myself in losing weight. If bullying overweight children worked, no child in any playground would be overweight ever.

But. But. I do not like being fat. I don't want to celebrate it. I don't think it's a desirable thing to be, and I certainly don't think it's attractive, on persons of either gender but especially on men. My perspective is as a gay man, and I'd be utterly turned off if I had a partner with a body like mine. Apart from some people (I'd say less than 1% of the population) who are actually sexually attracted to fatties, it's clear that the aesthetic and sexual preference for the vast majority of the population is for individuals with BMIs of around 19-23 (towards the lower end of the range for shorter people and towards the higher end of the range for taller people).

Or, to put it another way: many of the people in my life are fat, and they would look better and feel better if they were not.

If the feminist push were merely to decry fat-shaming, I'd understand it. I endured endless torment growing up over being overweight and it did nada to help me. But many feminists want models and TV shows and movies to show people with all kinds of body sizes.

I don't want a half-naked obese man in ads for aftershave. That doesn't sell product and it never will. I want to see the beautiful people, not more people like myself.

I also watch a lot of trashy British reality television, where obese people blame their fatness on completely nonsensical causes, like 'healthy food costs too much'. No, it doesn't. A kilogram of potato crisps costs several times the price of a kilo of fruit or vegetables. You don't need more money to consume fewer calories. You need less money.

Metaphor,

Fight for the body you want to have!...Let go of whatever made you fat!...You're in the right frame of mind!...You can do it!...

 

[gmbteach]

Say you have ice cream, drop that and have a greek yogurt with some fruit.

I don't understand that advice. While the yogurt / fruit would be healthier and have vitamins and protein, the calorie exchange is about equal and wouldn't help lose weight.

A little bit of the better stuff goes a lot further in your body.

We are discovering this through all the things you appear to disapprove of. Portion control. Portion sizes. Food types etc. A small piece (100g) of sirloin steak is definitely much nicer than 2 sausages weighing the same amount. Same with fresh veg or salad. A small amount of fresh iceberg lettuce, with 1/2 a vine ripened tomato, some cucumber and a fresh mushroom makes a beautifully delicious, yet small, salad.

Obesity is not always a choice. Hormone issues within my body resulted in my obesity. Now I am trying to correct it, though I am fighting a major battle as I am still on HRT. As far as the rest of my body is concerned, apart from arthritis in my shoulder and possibly my foot, my body functions well in terms of blood flow, heart rate etc. I am just fat.

Large people are not always unhealthy. Yes, we would eat the occasional take away and there was that whole month last year where we ate out practically every meal, but we balanced that with good alcohol intake.

Just kidding. Large people are not always unhealthy.

We are both trying to eat better, and the appropriate portion sizes as indicated by a group of dietitians. She has also prescribed a certain number of calories/kilojoules for me to consume each day, which I am sticking to remarkably easily.

Some people are lucky enough to have the genes that result in a 'good body'. Others have inherited a body shape, or have health issues. Either way, it is not truly a choice.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I don't understand that advice. While the yogurt / fruit would be healthier and have vitamins and protein, the calorie exchange is about equal and wouldn't help lose weight.

A little bit of the better stuff goes a lot further in your body.

We are discovering this through all the things you appear to disapprove of.

Please read my posts in this thread to come to a better understanding of what I believe. Thanks.

Portion control. Portion sizes.

That is the biggest thing.

A small amount of fresh iceberg lettuce, with 1/2 a vine ripened tomato, some cucumber and a fresh mushroom makes a beautifully delicious, yet small, salad.

Egad!! Iceberg lettuce?! Might as well put styrofoam in the salad. Iceberg lettuce is the most useless vegetable god would have ever created if there was a god. Spinach, use spinach!!!

Some people are lucky enough to have the genes that result in a 'good body'. Others have inherited a body shape, or have health issues. Either way, it is not truly a choice.

Oh gosh... this is the one line I hate the most... "lucky enough". Certain people like myself have run/cycled thousands of miles, swam hundred(s) of miles. There is little luck with my body. In fact, in my family, I'm the outlier, mainly because of the consistent exercise I did between 12-30.

Like I noted, exercise and food intake are choices. How your body metabolizes it is less of a choice. I could have continued putting on weight. I didn't. So choice is part of this. Definitely some part.

 

[Axulus]

Egad!! Iceberg lettuce?! Might as well put styrofoam in the salad. Iceberg lettuce is the most useless vegetable god would have ever created if there was a god. Spinach, use spinach!!!

You've probably heard it: Iceberg is the least nutrient-dense cultivar of lettuce available, so you should avoid it and go with romaine lettuce, kale, or some other type of green.

Someone even saw me buying iceberg a few years back and told me, "you might as well be chewing on cardboard."

Besides being blatantly wrong, the iceberg lettuce nutrition myth comes from the same sort of thinking that leads to poor eating habits.

http://www.raw-food-health.net/Iceberg-Lettuce-Nutrition.html

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

You've probably heard it: Iceberg is the least nutrient-dense cultivar of lettuce available, so you should avoid it and go with romaine lettuce, kale, or some other type of green.

Someone even saw me buying iceberg a few years back and told me, "you might as well be chewing on cardboard."

Besides being blatantly wrong, the iceberg lettuce nutrition myth comes from the same sort of thinking that leads to poor eating habits.

http://www.raw-food-health.net/Iceberg-Lettuce-Nutrition.html

FYI, 100 calories of iceburg lettuce is roughly 1.6 pounds of lettuce. (1.3 pounds of romaine)

Vitamin A, C, even per 100 calories is much much worse for iceburg lettuce. Both lettuces are poor sources of potassium and niacin. Comment remains correct.

 

[none]

Metaphor,
Do you feel bullied?

Right now? No. Outside primary school and high school, people rarely have the gumption to bully me to my face.

But I'm aware of how people react to obesity, although I'm not fully aware of how I come across to people (after all, they're the ones looking at me, I don't have that experience).

Well, I am not a therapist or trained at all in the mental health industry but I do have some empathy and that is why I am replying.
I figure it is better to listen than to preach and I am curious as to why you are feeling the way I perceive you to be feeling.
It seems to me you are validating other peoples criticisms by internalizing the criticisms because you too feel the same way, critical of the obese.
I don't think that internalized criticism is all that healthy and seems destructive depending upon the source and type I guess, and I don't know how to fix that problem other than suggesting to somebody who is internalizing destructive criticism to stop doing so.
I don't know if you agree with me and I would like some feedback to increase my awareness of why a person would write such a post (OP) that you wrote.
But before I end this reply I am going to give a little back story as to what I mean, people seem to me create destructive criticism out of misunderstanding and they in the case of obesity have little or very unforgiving tolerance for obesity because they don't accept or don't want to understand the causes of obesity and generalize that criticism.
well, hopefully I didn't piss you off. I want the best for you.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Try to quit dairy. I found this to be the easiest thing to do. It's a good start if you are so inclined. The hell with vanity. It's about your health.

There's nothing wrong with dairy. I've studied nutrition at university. The world needs less bullshit diet advice from people who don't really know what they're talking about. There's also nothing wrong with eating fat or fatty foods. It's more complicated than that. Without knowing how Metaphor eats, sleeps, works today, it's impossible to offer any specific tips that you know will help. Great... dairy worked for you. Also... whether you're vegan or not is irrelevant as far as health is concerned. Vegans can eat just as badly as people who eat meat. It's more complicated than that. Also... all natural whole grain food tend to be better than processed foods. But doesn't have to be. It's more complicated than that. It's hard to find a more processed product than whey on the market. Super healthy. Also made from dairy.

There may be something wrong with dairy. It may contribute to prostate and ovarian cancer. My information is sourced. I did not make it up. While there is nothing wrong with fat, I'd venture to guess most of us get plenty and may be able to make due with a little less. I do not know how Metaphor eats but it did work for me. It also seems to work for Asia. Being vegan most certainly can be relevant as one is more likely to consume much more leafy greens and beans to source their calcium and vitamin K. This along with exercise and sunshine have kept me well. I do take vitamin D in the winter.

While this article does mostly concern itself with bone health, there is some very good information in it: http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/calcium-full-story/