Russia's Ghost Army in Ukraine

[lpetrich]

If it is so easy to understand why Russia would send in its army and declare war on Ukraine as you say, why is Putin denying it?

Axulus, look at the Bay of Pigs incident some time. It had the same sort of official denial.

Furthermore, declarations of war have gone out of style since WWII, and not just in the US.

 

[Daioh]

What is Putin supposed to do? Not alow them to go? That would be pretty costly politically for him.

Is Putin so politically weak that he can't even exercise control over his own soldiers?

 

[tupac chopra]

What is Putin supposed to do? Not alow them to go? That would be pretty costly politically for him.

Is Putin so politically weak that he can't even exercise control over his own soldiers?

Why would he want to? There are many Russians in easy Ukraine. Russians want them protected. There are neo Nazi's coming from the west. Many Russians would have friends and relatives in eastern Ukraine.
This way he can keep ordinary Russians happy without taking the bait put before him. He doesn't want a full on war, but he doesn't want American mercenaries or Ukrainian Nazi's taking over in land that is historically Russian.

Politically he is in a strong position, with very high approval ratings

 

[Daioh]

Why would he want to?

Well firstly there is the problem of economic sanctions and blacklisting of Russians due to the presence of Russian Troops in Ukraine
There is the political fallout for other countries who see Russian troops in Ukraine as a good reason to look for support in places like Nato
There is the fact that most countries see this as another reason not to like or especially TRUST Putin on anything
There is the Hypocrisy of Russia publicly wanting "Peace" in the Ukraine while supplying large amounts of troops to rebel groups

There are a few to start

There are many Russians in easy Ukraine. Russians want them protected.

How is supporting a bloody civil war "protecting" anything?

Many Russians would have friends and relatives in eastern Ukraine.

And that to you justifies them entering another country to support a civil war?

This way he can keep ordinary Russians happy without taking the bait put before him.

So it's all Propaganda?

he doesn't want American mercenaries or Ukrainian Nazi's taking over in land that is historically Russian.

So no-one can meddle in the Ukraine except Russia because it ...is...Russia?

 

[tupac chopra]

Well firstly there is the problem of economic sanctions and blacklisting of Russians due to the presence of Russian Troops in Ukraine
There is the political fallout for other countries who see Russian troops in Ukraine as a good reason to look for support in places like Nato
There is the fact that most countries see this as another reason not to like or especially TRUST Putin on anything
There is the Hypocrisy of Russia publicly wanting "Peace" in the Ukraine while supplying large amounts of troops to rebel groups

There are a few to start

You could go and read some of Putin's recent speeches, which I believe would give you some understanding.
Putin has given up on America, and while he would like closer relations with Europe he rightly understands that NATO countries have little independence and do whatever America tells them to do.
He has been very busy making strategic alliances with the worlds largest economy, China. Also with India, and South America.
When you say "most countries" above you miss the most important countries such as China which has come down on Russia's side on the Ukraine issue.
Putin is preparing for the future and the future means taking the BRICS into account

 

[Daioh]

while he would like closer relations with Europe he rightly understands that NATO countries have little independence and do whatever America tells them to do. can't stand him

FTFY

No offense the whole "America controls Nato" schtick got old a long time ago

Now perhaps we can keep this on the subject of Putin sending "Allowing Volunteer" troops into Ukraine?
perhaps you want to defend your claims of Russia being allowed to meddle because of "historically Russian" land?
Perhaps you want to address Putin using this as propaganda?

 

[tupac chopra]

while he would like closer relations with Europe he rightly understands that NATO countries have little independence and do whatever America tells them to do. can't stand him

FTFY

No offense the whole "America controls Nato" schtick got old a long time ago

You may not believe it but if you want to understand Russia today you'll have to put that thought aside.
I don't know how you expect to understand this without reading what Putin actually has to say.

 

[tupac chopra]

while he would like closer relations with Europe he rightly understands that NATO countries have little independence and do whatever America tells them to do. can't stand him

FTFY

Europe has much bigger problems than Putin, and the sanctions are a big problem for them at this time.

Some there are realising that can't blindly take orders from the USA. It's just not in their best interest.
The West on the wrong path

The politics of escalation show that Europe sorely misses a realistic goal. It's a different thing in the US. Threats and posturing are simply part of the election preparations. When Hillary Clinton compares Putin with Hitler, she does so only to appeal to the Republican vote, i.e. people who do not own a passport. For many of them, Hitler is the only foreigner they know, which is why Adolf Putin is a very welcome fictitious campaign effigy. In this respect, Clinton and Obama have a realistic goal: to appeal to the people, to win elections, to win another Democratic presidency.

Angela Merkel can hardly claim these mitigating circumstances for herself. Geography forces every German Chancellor to be a bit more serious. As neighbors of Russia, as part of the European community bound in destiny, as recipient of energy and supplier of this and that, we Germans have a clearly more vital interest in stability and communication. We cannot afford to look at Russia through the eyes of the American Tea Party

 

[Jayjay]

In the eyes of putinists, Putin can do no wrong. And even if he were to do wrong sometime, it would be the right thing to do in those circumstances.

 

[tupac chopra]

In the eyes of putinists, Putin can do no wrong. And even if he were to do wrong sometime, it would be the right thing to do in those circumstances.

Hillary Clinton thinks he is Hitler and the Russian people like him..a lot.

Why do Russians still support Vladimir Putin?

A recent poll, conducted between 20 23 February 2015 among 1,600 Russians aged 18 or more in 46 different regions of Russia by an independent Russian not-for-profit market research agency Levada Centre for Echo Moskvy radio station, found that 54 per cent of the population agreed that “[Russia] is moving in the right direction”. Eighty-six per cent of the respondents approve of Vladimir Putin as Russia’s president. When asked to name five or six politicians or government officials they trust, 59 per cent responded: ”Putin”.

 

[Daioh]

You may not believe it but if you want to understand Russia today you'll have to put that thought aside.

Yes I am aware of what Russian propaganda says about Nato
However I am also aware that your comment about America/Nato was incorrect
Europe doesn't want closer ties to Russia because Putin has shown himself to be untrustworthy (And some I think just plain don't like him)

I don't know how you expect to understand this without reading what Putin actually has to say.

What Putin says and what Putin does are not always the same thing

 

[tupac chopra]

What Putin says and what Putin does are not always the same thing

In contrast to western leaders Putin and Russia don't tend to make idle threats.
But, if you have some evidence I'd be interested to see it

 

[barbos]

Yes I am aware of what Russian propaganda says about Nato
However I am also aware that your comment about America/Nato was incorrect
Europe doesn't want closer ties to Russia because Putin has shown himself to be untrustworthy (And some I think just plain don't like him)

Believe it or not, but russian "propaganda" says the same thing about West and they may have a point.
I am sure Qaddafi would have agreed.

 

[Ford]

In contrast to western leaders Putin and Russia don't tend to make idle threats.

So you admire Putin for making threats and carrying through with them.

Or is it fear?

 

[Jayjay]

What Putin says and what Putin does are not always the same thing

In contrast to western leaders Putin and Russia don't tend to make idle threats.
But, if you have some evidence I'd be interested to see it

Two weeks before annexing Crimea, Putin said that he has no plans to annex Crimea. And in the same breath he claimed that the "little green men" were not Russian military but local self-defense forces, which he later admitted to be a lie.

 

[lpetrich]

Just like the Bay of Pigs invasion. It's amazing how good the parallels are. Not exact, of course, but still very good.

I think that we could rename the Sea of Azov the Sea of Pigs in honor of this parallel.

 

[Daioh]

But, if you have some evidence I'd be interested to see it

Keeping to the Ukraine theme you have some big ones (to start with)
-We won't Annex Crimea....as Russia Annexes Crimea
-Russian Troops are not in Crimea....as Russian Troops ("Little Green Men") storm buildings
-People should adhere to Nato/Russia pact on Ukraine territorial integrity...as Russia biters off a chunk of Ukraine as troops flood into its borders and join rebels groups
-Sending Arms into the Ukraine conflict will lead to escalation....as thousands of Russian soldiers join the Rebels (Taking weapons with them)
-People shouldn't be meddling in Ukraine....as Russia meddles in Ukraine

 

[tupac chopra]

But, if you have some evidence I'd be interested to see it

Keeping to the Ukraine theme you have some big ones (to start with)
-We won't Annex Crimea....as Russia Annexes Crimea
-Russian Troops are not in Crimea....as Russian Troops ("Little Green Men") storm buildings
-People should adhere to Nato/Russia pact on Ukraine territorial integrity...as Russia biters off a chunk of Ukraine as troops flood into its borders and join rebels groups
-Sending Arms into the Ukraine conflict will lead to escalation....as thousands of Russian soldiers join the Rebels (Taking weapons with them)
-People shouldn't be meddling in Ukraine....as Russia meddles in Ukraine

Do you have any sources?
And can you explain which of these are threats?

None of them are threats, and none of them fit your assertion either.

 

[Daioh]

Do you have any sources?

I trust you can follow all the extra links for more detailed reports?

-We won't Annex Crimea....as Russia Annexes Crimea
"On 4 March, Russian President Vladimir Putin claimed Russia was not considering annexing Crimea."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexa..._Russian_Federation#Crimean_status_referendum
"the Russian Federation on 18 March 2014 to lay out terms for the immediate admission of the Republic of Crimea and Sevastopol as federal subjects of Russia and part of the Russian Federation. It was ratified by the Federal Assembly by March 21."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexa...tion#Accession_treaty_and_immediate_aftermath

-Russian Troops are not in Crimea....as Russian Troops ("Little Green Men") storm buildings
"Russian troops operated in Crimea without insignia. Despite numerous media reports and statements by the Ukrainian and foreign governments describing the unmarked troops as Russian soldiers, government officials concealed the identity of their forces, claiming they were local "self-defense" units over whom they had no authority. As late as 17 April, Russian foreign minister Lavrov claimed that there are no spare armed forces in the territory of Crimea.

Russian officials eventually admitted to their troops' presence. On 17 April 2014, Putin acknowledged the Russian military backed Crimean separatist militias"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexa..._regional_government_and_Russian_intervention

-People should adhere to Nato/Russia pact on Ukraine territorial integrity...as Russia bites off a chunk of Ukraine as troops flood into its borders and join rebels groups
-People shouldn't be meddling in Ukraine....as Russia meddles in Ukraine
(And yes I am lumping these two together because they are dealing with similar issues (outside involvement in the Ukraine))
"Russia accused Western governments of violating the pledge to respect the political independence of Ukraine by "financing a coup d'etat" that ousted President Viktor Yanukovich."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances#2014_Crimean_crisis

And the "Volunteers" are already acknowledged by you so I don't think that needs a new source

Can I also bring up you own quote?
"he doesn't want American mercenaries or Ukrainian Nazi's taking over in land that is historically Russian."
Ie no-one meddle in Ukraine...unless you are Russia


-Sending Arms into the Ukraine conflict will lead to escalation....as thousands of Russian soldiers join the Rebels (Taking weapons with them)
"A close ally of Russian President Vladimir Putin has told the European Parliament that "all-out war" could result if the US supplies arms to the Ukrainian government in Kiev."
"A further warning came from Mr Putin's spokesman Dmitry Peskov, who said on Tuesday that plans to arm Kiev's forces were "aimed at destabilising the situation in Ukraine"."
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31356372

Again the presence of "Volunteers" is already obvious

And can you explain which of these are threats?

Huh? threats?
Where did I ever say anything about threats?
I did say "What Putin says and what Putin does are not always the same thing"
Nowhere did I mention threats

 

[tupac chopra]

I trust you can follow all the extra links for more detailed reports?

-We won't Annex Crimea....as Russia Annexes Crimea
"On 4 March, Russian President Vladimir Putin claimed Russia was not considering annexing Crimea."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexa..._Russian_Federation#Crimean_status_referendum
"the Russian Federation on 18 March 2014 to lay out terms for the immediate admission of the Republic of Crimea and Sevastopol as federal subjects of Russia and part of the Russian Federation. It was ratified by the Federal Assembly by March 21."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexa...tion#Accession_treaty_and_immediate_aftermath

Are you deliberately trying to misrepresent things here?
Your link has Putin saying... "only citizens themselves, in conditions of free expression of will and their security can determine their future".

A referendum was then held where the citizens chose to return to Russia.

I'm not going to even bother reading the rest of your post in the light of that misrepresentation.