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Something From Nothing

steve_bank

Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
Joined
Nov 9, 2017
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secular-skeptic
When theist make claims of a god winking the unversed into existence out of nothing us non theists object.

Newton is said to have used ‘the gaps of the gaps’ to explain some things.



"God of the gaps" is a theological concept that emerged in the 19th century, and revolves around the idea that gaps in scientific understanding are regarded as indications of the existence of God.[1][2] This perspective has its origins in the observation that some individuals, often with religious inclinations, point to areas where science falls short in explaining natural phenomena as opportunities to insert the presence of a divine creator. The term itself was coined in response to this tendency. This theological view suggests that God fills in the gaps left by scientific knowledge, and that these gaps represent moments of divine intervention or influence.

Some on the forum in the past have claimed there are scientific theories based on something appearing from nothing inferring because it is science it is true that something can come frorm nothing.

Is this a secular version of god of the gaps? Something from nothing used to make a theory work.

Do you think something can come from nothing?

If an experiment speared to show something came from or went to nothing would you believe it, or would you think of alternate explanations.

To me a theory in which a particle can come from and go to to noting is analogous to god of the gaps.
 
I see no evidence that something has not always existed. At most, the Big Bang suggests a phase transition of some sort not yet determined, not a creation event or something from nothing.
 
I'm fine with saying nothing (as in absolute nothingness) can't exist. It can't exist by definition. The only thing that is necessary is that somethingness must exist.
 
Something other than free will and determinism.
? Whataboutism?
Google sez the 8 great isms are:
"racism, sexism, capitalism, socialism, feminism, ableism, ageism, nationalism, and environmentalism".
I'm fine with saying nothing (as in absolute nothingness) can't exist. It can't exist by definition.
Then, can nihilism even exist? 😲
 
Something other than free will and determinism.
? Whataboutism?
Google sez the 8 great isms are:
"racism, sexism, capitalism, socialism, feminism, ableism, ageism, nationalism, and environmentalism".
I'm fine with saying nothing (as in absolute nothingness) can't exist. It can't exist by definition.
Then, can nihilism even exist? 😲
Yup, the Universe is still completely purposeless. It's just that there must always be something that exists because nothingness is logically impossible. That doesn't necessarily mean our Universe is eternal either, though, and I have no idea if there are other Universes either. It may be whatever caused the Universe to expand is eternal, or it may be something else that's eternal, but we'll probably never know what the eternal thing is.
 
nothingness is logically impossible.
That implies that nothingness IS possible, in the absence of logic.
Perhaps nothingness is its own universe, and as with other universes, sometimes nothingness (in limited quantities of course) "leaks" into adjacent universes. :LOL:
 
nothingness is logically impossible.
That implies that nothingness IS possible, in the absence of logic.
I'm not sure if there's ever a situation where there's an absence of logic entirely. I'd have to see evidence of nothingness too though and I don't think there can be, that wouldn't make a lot of sense either.
 
I'm not sure if there's ever a situation where there's an absence of logic entirely.
If ever there was, this is probably it!
I'd have to see evidence of nothingness too though and I don't think there can be.
The lack of evidence of nothingness is supporting evidence of its existence?
Yup, this is definitely a "situation where there's an absence of logic entirely".
 
I'm not sure if there's ever a situation where there's an absence of logic entirely.
If ever there was, this is probably it!
I'd have to see evidence of nothingness too though and I don't think there can be.
The lack of evidence of nothingness is supporting evidence of its existence?
Yup, this is definitely a "situation where there's an absence of logic entirely".
Yeah, it's just hard to say what a situation where there's an absence of logic would look like, exactly. You can't make models with it, can't make any predictions with it either, so scientifically it's kind of useless.
 
I see no evidence that something has not always existed. At most, the Big Bang suggests a phase transition of some sort not yet determined, not a creation event or something from nothing.
The way I consider as 'before' the big bang is like that moment after a computer is powered on, but before the boot loader has finished populating RAM with the OS, before the OS actually starts running. Everything that WAS there is getting clobbered by a completely different process, in fact by a completely different processor, than normally runs on the machine.

Eventually once the BIOS has loaded, the processor takes over and the system entered an entirely new paradigm of operation.

The problem here is that all trace of what was happening before, whatever was in the memory, was in the process of being "pounced". It doesn't matter once the system starts executing, and it can't be made sense of from the contents of memory after.

From the perspective of most of the system, all that initial state stuff comes in from "nowhere".

From the perspective of the debugger with only access to "normal memory", there's no way to observe what was going on before that happened, before power turned on, because as you say a transition occurs there that puts it into an entirely new paradigm of operation.

Still, even before the computer was powered on, the memory was there, the bios was there, the processor was there... It just wasn't "on".

If I were in an environment inside a computer reading the instructions of the system, I would be lost were I to trace things back all the way to the initial entry; there's no further to go. That's "the beginning of process time".

Part of this is so difficult, too, because time is much more complicated than most people think it is. After all, of "process time" is a sort of "time" and it is subordinate to our view of time, then time as we experience is not the end-all be-all of 'time'
Something other than free will and determinism.
? Whataboutism?
Google sez the 8 great isms are:
"racism, sexism, capitalism, socialism, feminism, ableism, ageism, nationalism, and environmentalism".
I'm fine with saying nothing (as in absolute nothingness) can't exist. It can't exist by definition.
Then, can nihilism even exist? 😲
Yup, the Universe is still completely purposeless. It's just that there must always be something that exists because nothingness is logically impossible. That doesn't necessarily mean our Universe is eternal either, though, and I have no idea if there are other Universes either. It may be whatever caused the Universe to expand is eternal, or it may be something else that's eternal, but we'll probably never know what the eternal thing is.
In some respects, I find the idea of "eternal" to be problematic, because time itself is just ONE dimension of change, and even if you have all the "frames" or "distance" along that dimension graphed, "eternalness" isn't actually capable of removing the dimensionality there.

You take a block view and call that "eternal", but it's not. Time is still right there, it's the dimension along which you arranged the frames. Indeed you escaped nothing.

The only thing that exists free of that dimension of time are the rules themselves which define the transformation and even those rules are STILL contextual to that space.

This would imply that the only thing utter or eternal with respect to all possibility is in fact noncontradiction.

Everything else depends on some momentary context.
 
What if I say that logic requires a conscious, thinking brain, therefore where there is no conscious, thinking brain, there is no logic?
You still run afoul of panpsychism, at least; there would be "consciousness" everywhere there is phenomena of change, which is everywhere in every moment in every place; which means there is an abstract sort of logic happening everywhere.

The one overarching property this must have for such spaces to "exist" coherently is simply "noncontradiction", which is the defining quality of logic in general.
 
Something other than free will and determinism.
? Whataboutism?
Google sez the 8 great isms are:
"racism, sexism, capitalism, socialism, feminism, ableism, ageism, nationalism, and environmentalism".
I'm fine with saying nothing (as in absolute nothingness) can't exist. It can't exist by definition.
Then, can nihilism even exist? 😲
So there are 8 "great" isms, but you listed 9 - one of them must have come from nothing.:)
Anyway, it seems a rather arbitrary list. What about sadism? It seems one of the great isms of our age. Also, its a rather strange mix, as some are what are considered positive, and most are negative or neutral. Would expect more of the positive isms, if going to use the word great, which has a positive connotation.
 
It has to do with with casualty and why I put it in metaphysics.

I don't think it is testable.

If you get rid of causality you can imagine and theorize anything.

I heard a theory on a science show about particles popping into existence fro nothing.

As with god of the gaps to e it represents the limit of our ability to conceptualize and resume.
 
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