• Welcome to the Internet Infidels Discussion Board.

Venezuela - Updated Chronicles in Socialist Success Stories!

...

And what's with this comparing Venezuela with the US? I think the discussion in the US is like "Is the situation in Venezuela so bad that we should we meddle in it?", which is horrifying. ...

I can't guarantee that we, the US, won't meddle in Venezuela. Among a lot of other really bad ideas that he had, George W.Bush interfered with the presidential elections in Venezuela, pumping money to Chavez's opponents.

Venezuela is a touchstone with American conservatives, an example of why,

  • It is folly to try to achieve social justice through the government.
  • That their policies of pursuing social injustice through the government are far superior.
  • That socialism is a thoroughly tested, ideologically driven system that always fails.
  • That therefore we should use their completely untested. ideologically driven fantasy system of the government free, self-regulating, self-organizing free market.
  • That the fact that the government can't do everything well in the economy...
  • Proves that they are right that the government should do nothing in the economy.

These things are so obvious that they don't even have to explain them, they can just say that "Venezuela is proof that ObamaCare can't ever work," for example.

LOL, the US gives far less of a shit about Venezuela than you think I would guess. Maduro needs the idea the US is out to get him far more than Joe Biden needs anything he's got.

And if those are the big lessons you are taking away from the train wreck going on there maybe you should stop worrying so much about "US conservatives", which really have next to nothing to do with Venezuela's problems, and capitalize on what should be a great learning opportunity. It's not often you get to see a country so badly run it completely fucks itself and its people over. I think there is near unanimity among economists right, left and center at this point that Maduro's policies are disastrous, and predictably disastrous in just the ways basic economics would predict. Only a few bitter clingers like Unter, the anarchist who loves intrusive government, will refuse to acknowledge it.

It's even hard to imagine how Joe Biden could screw up Venezuela any worse than Maduro's policies if he wanted to. A good conspiracy theorist might even argue the US sent Maduro in there to fuck up the country as much as possible.
 
I can't guarantee that we, the US, won't meddle in Venezuela. Among a lot of other really bad ideas that he had, George W.Bush interfered with the presidential elections in Venezuela, pumping money to Chavez's opponents.

Venezuela is a touchstone with American conservatives, an example of why,

  • It is folly to try to achieve social justice through the government.
  • That their policies of pursuing social injustice through the government are far superior.
  • That socialism is a thoroughly tested, ideologically driven system that always fails.
  • That therefore we should use their completely untested. ideologically driven fantasy system of the government free, self-regulating, self-organizing free market.
  • That the fact that the government can't do everything well in the economy...
  • Proves that they are right that the government should do nothing in the economy.

These things are so obvious that they don't even have to explain them, they can just say that "Venezuela is proof that ObamaCare can't ever work," for example.

LOL, the US gives far less of a shit about Venezuela than you think I would guess. Maduro needs the idea the US is out to get him far more than Joe Biden needs anything he's got.

And if those are the big lessons you are taking away from the train wreck going on there maybe you should stop worrying so much about "US conservatives", which really have next to nothing to do with Venezuela's problems, and capitalize on what should be a great learning opportunity. It's not often you get to see a country so badly run it completely fucks itself and its people over. I think there is near unanimity among economists right, left and center at this point that Maduro's policies are disastrous, and predictably disastrous in just the ways basic economics would predict. Only a few bitter clingers like Unter, the anarchist who loves intrusive government, will refuse to acknowledge it.

It's even hard to imagine how Joe Biden could screw up Venezuela any worse than Maduro's policies if he wanted to. A good conspiracy theorist might even argue the US sent Maduro in there to fuck up the country as much as possible.

Stop this claptrap. Anarchists do not love intrusive government. Wake up and smell the residue of capitalism and colonialism pretty much all over South America. You have a clear prejudice against anything Bolivarian. I have already pointed out that Venezuela has a rugged course in front of it precisely because they are too focused on their petroleum industry. It really has very little to do with the form of government. It really is insipid to hear our State Department talk about "stearing the Venezuelan government" in a better direction. U.S. interests in that country have been devastating.
 
LOL, the US gives far less of a shit about Venezuela than you think I would guess. Maduro needs the idea the US is out to get him far more than Joe Biden needs anything he's got.

And if those are the big lessons you are taking away from the train wreck going on there maybe you should stop worrying so much about "US conservatives", which really have next to nothing to do with Venezuela's problems, and capitalize on what should be a great learning opportunity. It's not often you get to see a country so badly run it completely fucks itself and its people over. I think there is near unanimity among economists right, left and center at this point that Maduro's policies are disastrous, and predictably disastrous in just the ways basic economics would predict. Only a few bitter clingers like Unter, the anarchist who loves intrusive government, will refuse to acknowledge it.

It's even hard to imagine how Joe Biden could screw up Venezuela any worse than Maduro's policies if he wanted to. A good conspiracy theorist might even argue the US sent Maduro in there to fuck up the country as much as possible.

Stop this claptrap. Anarchists do not love intrusive government.

Unter sure seems to. He seems to be quite willing to cheerlead the creeping totalitarianism in Venezuela. The stifling of opposition voices. The confiscation of property. The locking up of opponents. The violent crack downs on protests. Etc, etc.

In other news, Madutro is ordering supermarkets to install finger print scanners to track what everyone purchases. Ah, the smell of freedom.

http://www.apnewsarchive.com/2015/V...shortages/id-1a3481b0c9a44aa48e5d351ef000750b
 
The US President just declared sanctions on Venezuela by means of Executive Order. I'm not posting it here because I'm doing it from my cellphone at this time.

Try: whitehouse dot gov.

I agree with what he says about the Maduro government abuses but I do not see how that government is an extraordinary threat to the US.
 
Stop this claptrap. Anarchists do not love intrusive government.

Unter sure seems to. He seems to be quite willing to cheerlead the creeping totalitarianism in Venezuela. The stifling of opposition voices. The confiscation of property. The locking up of opponents. The violent crack downs on protests. Etc, etc.

In other news, Madutro is ordering supermarkets to install finger print scanners to track what everyone purchases. Ah, the smell of freedom.

http://www.apnewsarchive.com/2015/V...shortages/id-1a3481b0c9a44aa48e5d351ef000750b

So Maduro is going to jail somebody for buying sweet potatoes? There may be other reasons for this that are completely legitimate. I am a member of 24Hr. Fitness gym. They use fingerprints for admission to the gym...no ID cards necessary once you are signed up. Not such a bad idea! You are looking at Venezuela from a country that has undergone a lot more modernization than Venezuela. I don't think there is any reason to be afraid of biometrics for ID at the supermarket. This is especially true in a country with far less of these than we have in America. In a society that is attempting to establish socialism long term, such things as tracking the eating habits of the population would be expected. The biometrics could simply be a way to look at individual diets and have nothing evil about it.
 
The US President just declared sanctions on Venezuela by means of Executive Order. I'm not posting it here because I'm doing it from my cellphone at this time.

Try: whitehouse dot gov.

I agree with what he says about the Maduro government abuses but I do not see how that government is an extraordinary threat to the US.

It's really just a way to penalize a country not friendly to the US for engaging in totalitarian type actions. The targeting of political opposition for arrests and detaining them indefinitely is pretty reprehensible. No, the US obviously isn't consistent - it won't do similar actions if allied countries engage in reprehensible behavior (Saudi Arabia being prime example) - however, there are other geopolitical considerations at play there. When such considerations are absent, why not formally penalize abusers?
 
You know who led an actual coup attempt? Your hero Chavez.

He overthrew a government allowing foreign exploitation for personal monetary gain, then he established open elections and won every time he ran.

His goal was to lift the 25% of the Venezuelan population that was completely ignored by the previous government, and lived in severe poverty, out of that poverty.

He helped millions of these people rise from the waste of capitalism.

This angered many Venezuelans and foreign investors who were exploiting those severely poor natives and exploiting the natural resources of the nation.

And we have seen how this anger has played out ever since.

So as long as someone wins several elections in a row and their general policies agree with your opinions, attempted coups, separation of powers being dissolved and suppression of political opposition, and rampant corruption is no big deal? Sounds more like the perspective of a fanatic and a path toward misery.

By the way, Brazil lifted even more people out of poverty without dismantling the free market institutions like Venezuela did and suffers from essentially none of the economic and political problems that Venezuela suffers from. It even did so without dissolving separation of powers, suppression of dissent and political opposition, and reduced corruption.

Or how about Chile, they country that embraces capitalism the most in Latin America?

CFB816.gif


Or Colombia, which has largely embraced free market reforms and is steadily reaping the benefits:

poverty2.jpg


Looks like there is a better way, which you are too blinded by your ideology to see.
 
He overthrew a government allowing foreign exploitation for personal monetary gain, then he established open elections and won every time he ran.

His goal was to lift the 25% of the Venezuelan population that was completely ignored by the previous government, and lived in severe poverty, out of that poverty.

He helped millions of these people rise from the waste of capitalism.

This angered many Venezuelans and foreign investors who were exploiting those severely poor natives and exploiting the natural resources of the nation.

And we have seen how this anger has played out ever since.

So as long as someone wins several elections in a row and their general policies agree with your opinions, attempted coups, separation of powers being dissolved and suppression of political opposition, and rampant corruption is no big deal? Sounds more like the perspective of a fanatic and a path toward misery.

So you go along with the idea that the U.S. should "steer" the Venezuelan government toward sound policies. And you talk about fanatics? Only one way works and that is the way Axulus approves. Sounds like Axulism or the highway. The misery Axulus speaks of was ALREADY THERE when the country was dominated by U.S. oil businessmen.
 
So as long as someone wins several elections in a row and their general policies agree with your opinions, attempted coups, separation of powers being dissolved and suppression of political opposition, and rampant corruption is no big deal? Sounds more like the perspective of a fanatic and a path toward misery.

So you go along with the idea that the U.S. should "steer" the Venezuelan government toward sound policies. And you talk about fanatics? Only one way works and that is the way Axulus approves. Sounds like Axulism or the highway. The misery Axulus speaks of was ALREADY THERE when the country was dominated by U.S. oil businessmen.

Why shouldn't we steer countries towards policies that bring about prosperity and greater respect for human rights, prosperity that can be used to reduce poverty, etc.? By "steer" I mean provide support and encouragement for countries to embrace them, and make statements and sanctions if they violate human rights. Yes, we absolutely should take a stand for western liberal values and encourage more countries to embrace them. It not only helps them out but it makes the world a safer place.

Just imagine if the West was too weak and had the same attitudes towards communism (declined to steer countries away from it and/or out of it). The world would be a worse place today with more human misery and suffering.

Instead, what we actually have is a world, for the typical human, that is more prosperous and offers a better quality of life than ever before in the history of the human species.
 
Stop this claptrap. Anarchists do not love intrusive government.

Unter sure seems to. He seems to be quite willing to cheerlead the creeping totalitarianism in Venezuela. The stifling of opposition voices. The confiscation of property. The locking up of opponents. The violent crack downs on protests. Etc, etc.

In other news, Madutro is ordering supermarkets to install finger print scanners to track what everyone purchases. Ah, the smell of freedom.

http://www.apnewsarchive.com/2015/V...shortages/id-1a3481b0c9a44aa48e5d351ef000750b

I simply support the idea that nations should be allowed to freely experiment with all kinds of economic systems. That is how we will move beyond the destructiveness of capitalism.

I oppose economic interference and political interference.

I oppose the strong trying to impose their will upon the weak.

That is Anarchism.

As far as the specific actions being taken in Venezuela now, it is not how I would try to solve things. But I support the right of the elected government of Venezuela to do what it wants in economic matters as long as it allows continued free elections.
 
I simply support the idea that nations should be allowed to freely experiment with all kinds of economic systems. That is how we will move beyond the destructiveness of capitalism.

With no limits? Even if such experimentation also involves dissolving separation of powers and suppression of political dissent and making them crimes or defacto crimes? Would you support a country freely experimenting with reduction in welfare for poor citizens and funneling state money and government contracts to rich oligarchs?

I oppose economic interference and political interference.

It sounds like you lack a spine then to stand up for liberal western democratic values.

I oppose the strong trying to impose their will upon the weak.

What do you consider to be "imposing"?

As far as the specific actions being taken in Venezuela now, it is not how I would try to solve things. But I support the right of the elected government of Venezuela to do what it wants in economic matters as long as it allows continued free elections.

Kind of difficult to call an election "free" when the political opposition is suppressed and being systematically rounded up.
 
With no limits? Even if such experimentation also involves dissolving separation of powers and suppression of political dissent and making them crimes or defacto crimes? Would you support a country freely experimenting with reduction in welfare for poor citizens and funneling state money and government contracts to rich oligarchs?

Of course within limits. But not limits prescribed by a foreign power.

And I would support the right of a foreign nation to do what they mostly do, take care of the oligarchs at the expense of the many.

I oppose economic interference and political interference.

It sounds like you lack a spine then to stand up for liberal western democratic values.

This is second grade gibberish.

I oppose the strong trying to impose their will upon the weak.

What do you consider to be "imposing"?

You know, things like blocking universal single payer health insurance when the majority support it.

As far as the specific actions being taken in Venezuela now, it is not how I would try to solve things. But I support the right of the elected government of Venezuela to do what it wants in economic matters as long as it allows continued free elections.

Kind of difficult to call an election "free" when the political opposition is suppressed and being systematically rounded up.

The US has 707/100,000 people in jail. Venezuela has 174/100,000.

It is the US that is suppressing democracy by throwing people in jail.
 
Of course within limits. But not limits prescribed by a foreign power.

And I would support the right of a foreign nation to do what they mostly do, take care of the oligarchs at the expense of the many.

I oppose economic interference and political interference.

But why not publicly condemn reprehensible actions when the opportunity arises, and implement diplomatic pressure on a case-by-case basis for such countries? Why do you want to give corrupt and human rights abusing regimes an easy time?

This is second grade gibberish.

I don't think it is. You seem to be unwilling to take action that will help spread liberal democratic values. Universal human rights is a superior concept than selective rights. Separation of powers is a superior concept than concentrated powers in the executive. Allowing a vigorous political opposition and freedom to protest and speak in opposition of the current power regime is superior than cracking down on such. Rampant corruption, crony capitalism, and sweethart deals to funnel money and stifle competition to the benefit of rich oligarchs is superior than cracking down on corruption, fair and open bidding for government contracts, and fair, rationally supportable and evidence based regulation.

I would also add (I know that you disagree) that free markets are superior to command economies. The strong majority of people and academic world in the west accepts this.

These values are worth something and we should vigorously defend them and publicly name and shame those countries who reject them.

You know, things like blocking universal single payer health insurance when the majority support it.

Seeing as most other countries have UHC, it's not like the US is doing much of anything to impose a non-UHC system on other countries. So don't know what you are talking about here - you seem to be veering a bit off topic.



The US has 707/100,000 people in jail. Venezuela has 174/100,000.

It is the US that is suppressing democracy by throwing people in jail.

Apples to oranges - they aren't in jail because they were a journalist who criticized the government too harshly or were of a political party that disagrees with and vigorously speaks out against those in power.

The fact that you don't acknowledge or recognize this salient difference says something about you.
 
Unter sure seems to. He seems to be quite willing to cheerlead the creeping totalitarianism in Venezuela. The stifling of opposition voices. The confiscation of property. The locking up of opponents. The violent crack downs on protests. Etc, etc.

In other news, Madutro is ordering supermarkets to install finger print scanners to track what everyone purchases. Ah, the smell of freedom.

http://www.apnewsarchive.com/2015/V...shortages/id-1a3481b0c9a44aa48e5d351ef000750b

So Maduro is going to jail somebody for buying sweet potatoes? There may be other reasons for this that are completely legitimate. I am a member of 24Hr. Fitness gym. They use fingerprints for admission to the gym...no ID cards necessary once you are signed up. Not such a bad idea! You are looking at Venezuela from a country that has undergone a lot more modernization than Venezuela. I don't think there is any reason to be afraid of biometrics for ID at the supermarket. This is especially true in a country with far less of these than we have in America. In a society that is attempting to establish socialism long term, such things as tracking the eating habits of the population would be expected. The biometrics could simply be a way to look at individual diets and have nothing evil about it.

How do you imagine supermarkets in the rest of the world identify shoppers without government mandated finger print scanners?

Oh, that's right, supermarkets don't need to identify shoppers. Most places buying too much broccoli is not a crime.
 
Venezuela:

World press freedom ranking - #116 (US is #46)

Corruption Perceptions index - #161 (US is #17)

Global democracy ranking - #94 (US is #16)

Human rights risk index ranking - Extreme Risk (US is medium risk)

Freedom in the world ranking - Partly Free (US is Free)

To think the US is comparable to Venezuela in these areas is to be willfully blinded by ideology.
 
But why not publicly condemn reprehensible actions when the opportunity arises, and implement diplomatic pressure on a case-by-case basis for such countries? Why do you want to give corrupt and human rights abusing regimes an easy time?

Who does this? What pure force does this?

And why not first condemn the conditions in capitalist Haiti, and capitalist Guatemala, and capitalist Honduras, and capitalist Mexico?

...You seem to be unwilling to take action that will help spread liberal democratic values...

When have these values ever been spread and who spread them?

What we see is economic exploitation spread under the guise of spreading democracy.

I would also add (I know that you disagree) that free markets are superior to command economies.

Nonsense. Anarchism is all about free markets. But you can't have huge multi-nationals backed up by powerful and violent nations and also have free markets.

Seeing as most other countries have UHC, it's not like the US is doing much of anything to impose a non-UHC system on other countries.

The rich are blocking this in the US with their bought and paid for shills we call "leaders".

The US has 707/100,000 people in jail. Venezuela has 174/100,000.

It is the US that is suppressing democracy by throwing people in jail.

Apples to oranges - they aren't in jail because they were a journalist who criticized the government too harshly or were of a political party that disagrees with and vigorously speaks out against those in power.

They are in jail because they vote the wrong way. Their lifestyle is made illegal to eliminate their democratic influence.

It is far worse than anything happening in Venezuela, and ignoring it is a sign of the double standard applied to places like Venezuela.
 
I can't guarantee that we, the US, won't meddle in Venezuela. Among a lot of other really bad ideas that he had, George W.Bush interfered with the presidential elections in Venezuela, pumping money to Chavez's opponents.

Venezuela is a touchstone with American conservatives, an example of why,

  • It is folly to try to achieve social justice through the government.
  • That their policies of pursuing social injustice through the government are far superior.
  • That socialism is a thoroughly tested, ideologically driven system that always fails.
  • That therefore we should use their completely untested. ideologically driven fantasy system of the government free, self-regulating, self-organizing free market.
  • That the fact that the government can't do everything well in the economy...
  • Proves that they are right that the government should do nothing in the economy.

These things are so obvious that they don't even have to explain them, they can just say that "Venezuela is proof that ObamaCare can't ever work," for example.

LOL, the US gives far less of a shit about Venezuela than you think I would guess. Maduro needs the idea the US is out to get him far more than Joe Biden needs anything he's got.

And if those are the big lessons you are taking away from the train wreck going on there maybe you should stop worrying so much about "US conservatives", which really have next to nothing to do with Venezuela's problems, and capitalize on what should be a great learning opportunity. It's not often you get to see a country so badly run it completely fucks itself and its people over. I think there is near unanimity among economists right, left and center at this point that Maduro's policies are disastrous, and predictably disastrous in just the ways basic economics would predict. Only a few bitter clingers like Unter, the anarchist who loves intrusive government, will refuse to acknowledge it.

It's even hard to imagine how Joe Biden could screw up Venezuela any worse than Maduro's policies if he wanted to. A good conspiracy theorist might even argue the US sent Maduro in there to fuck up the country as much as possible.

Perhaps I was too subtle.

I am not defending Venezuela or Chavez. Their original goals were reasonable, to lift more people out of poverty instead of continue to further enriching the oligarchy. But the way that they went about it was, as you pointed out, doomed to failure like all of the socialist experiments have been in the past. Simply put any system based on ideology and not reality is going to fail

But this also true for conservatives' favorite economic system, the fantasy of the self-regulating, self-organizing free market. An economy that can operate without regulations and a government to write and to enforce them. A system that is suppose to be the so-called natural state of the economy but which has never occurred. This is even more irrational than the idea that the government can decide everything in the economy.

The post I responded to asked why the comparison between Venezuela to the US. I answered, that American conservatives see a parallel between the Chavez policies in Venezuela and the attempts to achieve some larger degree of social justice here in the US. This is idiotic. There is no reason for the US to resort to socialism to achieve this goal of reducing poverty for example.

If we have learned nothing else over the forty years, it is that capitalism is a very robust economic system that can be tweaked to obtain nearly any reasonable income distribution that we want or need. We learned this when we changed policies forty years ago to increase the amount of that goes to the already wealthy in order to achieve the yet unrealized goal of more investment in the physical, real economy. We simply must slowly reverse the policies that has redistributed so much income to the already wealthy.

We have also learned what we had forgotten forty years ago, that conservatives are terrible at governing and that we must, again, re-learn the simple truth that they should be ignored. That "just say no" is not going to solve our problems or help us face the changes that are coming.

This is especially true when conservatives take that all too short of a step to the right to full blown reactionary, as the so-called movement conservatism has in the US. A step that has them wanting to rollback one hundred years of social progress.
 
LOL, the US gives far less of a shit about Venezuela than you think I would guess. Maduro needs the idea the US is out to get him far more than Joe Biden needs anything he's got.

And if those are the big lessons you are taking away from the train wreck going on there maybe you should stop worrying so much about "US conservatives", which really have next to nothing to do with Venezuela's problems, and capitalize on what should be a great learning opportunity. It's not often you get to see a country so badly run it completely fucks itself and its people over. I think there is near unanimity among economists right, left and center at this point that Maduro's policies are disastrous, and predictably disastrous in just the ways basic economics would predict. Only a few bitter clingers like Unter, the anarchist who loves intrusive government, will refuse to acknowledge it.

It's even hard to imagine how Joe Biden could screw up Venezuela any worse than Maduro's policies if he wanted to. A good conspiracy theorist might even argue the US sent Maduro in there to fuck up the country as much as possible.

Perhaps I was too subtle.

I am not defending Venezuela or Chavez. Their original goals were reasonable, to lift more people out of poverty instead of continue to further enriching the oligarchy. But the way that they went about it was, as you pointed out, doomed to failure like all of the socialist experiments have been in the past. Simply put any system based on ideology and not reality is going to fail

But this also true for conservatives' favorite economic system, the fantasy of the self-regulating, self-organizing free market. An economy that can operate without regulations and a government to write and to enforce them. A system that is suppose to be the so-called natural state of the economy but which has never occurred. This is even more irrational than the idea that the government can decide everything in the economy.

The post I responded to asked why the comparison between Venezuela to the US. I answered, that American conservatives see a parallel between the Chavez policies in Venezuela and the attempts to achieve some larger degree of social justice here in the US. This is idiotic. There is no reason for the US to resort to socialism to achieve this goal of reducing poverty for example.

If we have learned nothing else over the forty years, it is that capitalism is a very robust economic system that can be tweaked to obtain nearly any reasonable income distribution that we want or need. We learned this when we changed policies forty years ago to increase the amount of that goes to the already wealthy in order to achieve the yet unrealized goal of more investment in the physical, real economy. We simply must slowly reverse the policies that has redistributed so much income to the already wealthy.

We have also learned what we had forgotten forty years ago, that conservatives are terrible at governing and that we must, again, re-learn the simple truth that they should be ignored. That "just say no" is not going to solve our problems or help us face the changes that are coming.

This is especially true when conservatives take that all too short of a step to the right to full blown reactionary, as the so-called movement conservatism has in the US. A step that has them wanting to rollback one hundred years of social progress.

Price controls, money printing, and FUBARed exchange rates are not inherently socialist economic policies. A socialist need not advocate or defend them. They are, however, products of economic illiteracy so perhaps correlated with socialism because economic illiteracy is common among socialists.

In truth, arresting opposition leaders, suppressing the opposition media, shooting protestors, and blaming US imperialism for all your problems isn't inherently socialist either - it just seems that way because that's where socialist experiments tend to end up.

Of course nationalizing businesses, demonizing the productive class, and wondering what happened to all the goods you used to manufacture is pretty par for the socialist course.
 
Back
Top Bottom