Marxism

[lostone]

It wasn't until the 90s China bnegan providing a min calories.

Back in the 90s I listened to a reporter taking about her first trip to NK. Walking around at first she thought she was seeing teens, then liberalized the were grown adults.

A search showed China also had a significant p[robkem with stunted growth.

China was able to provide sufficient nutrition for its population primarily after the implementation of major agricultural, social, and economic reforms in the late
1970s and 1980s. While food supply began to stabilize in the early 1970s, it was not until the 1990s that nutrient supply adequacy was generally achieved, marking a transition from scarcity to surplus.

Two people on the forum think communism was what built modern China..

Start with Mao and the Chinese Civil War. Work your way forward to Cultural Revolution, to the Gang Of Four, to Deng Xiaoping and opening to the west. In the day opening to the west was a big story.

I watched a bio last night on Pol Pot. A communist. He was in China during the Cultural Revolution and used it as a model to purge Cambodia in his slaughter of millions. There was a war between communist Cambodia and communist Vietnam.

Communism has never seemed to do much good.

I never had the feeling of looking at teens when I was first in China, but I can definitely see how someone could get that impression. The transition I observed was more like 1980, but that was from looking at Shanghai and nearby environments--I was seeing the best, not the worst. At first I could freely see across crowds--my eye level was above the top of their heads. While I have never had that experience elsewhere I can't really compare as China is the only non-first-world country I have visited at my adult height.

When I visited Cuba on a cruise ship I had a similar feeling/experience. OTOH, our bus drove all over the island, and only so much can be hidden. All in all, Cuba seemed to be on an economic level not uncommon in the Caribbean. Honduras and such on a comparable level. Not down to the Haiti level, even if not at US levels for our poorer states (Mississippi, etc). Our tour guides seemed to feel safe offering some mild criticism of their government, re taxes et al. Having also been to Hong Kong in my misspent youthful Navy days, circa 1963-4, I wonder how I would see Hong Kong now.

 

[Tigers!]

When I visited Cuba on a cruise ship I had a similar feeling/experience. OTOH, our bus drove all over the island, and only so much can be hidden. All in all, Cuba seemed to be on an economic level not uncommon in the Caribbean. Honduras and such on a comparable level. Not down to the Haiti level, even if not at US levels for our poorer states (Mississippi, etc). Our tour guides seemed to feel safe offering some mild criticism of their government, re taxes et al. Having also been to Hong Kong in my misspent youthful Navy days, circa 1963-4, I wonder how I would see Hong Kong now.

How 'mild' was the criticism offered by the tour guides?
Did you get a chance to talk to the locals unscripted? Though that would have got them a visit from the local goons and maybe even a spell in a labour camp. Sorry, re-educational facility.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

On the subject of quanta, Waton continues as follows:

Schroedinger tells us ( as quoted by Eddington in his book: The Nature of the Physical World ): Imagine a sub ether whose surface is covered with ripples. The oscillations of the ripples are a million times faster than those of visible light too fast to come within the scope of gross experience. Individual ripples are beyond our ken; what we can appreciate is a combined effect when the convergence and coalescence of the waves conspire to create a disturbed area large enough compared with the individual ripples, but small from our point of view. Such a disturbed area is recognized as a material particle; in particular it can be an electron. Accordingly, the electron is only a disturbed surface of the sub ether. This means that the electron is not an infinitely small individual unit of matter, it is only a disturbed area of the sub ether. Now, a ripple on the surface from the water is not separate and distinct from the water; it is only a state of the water itself. Thus all material realities are only ripples on the surface of the infinite energy which fills the universe. Hence the continuum is not the distances between the units of matter and the intervals between their motions; the continuum is the infinite energy itself; it is infinite in extension and in duration. There is no vacuum between the units of matter, and there is no hiatus between the events. There is but one absolute, infinite and eternal substance.

Waton presents a critique of science. In essence, science lacks a truly comprehensive approach.

Instead, we should just go by reading quotes from people. And only go by arguments from a few very obscure and very specific philosophers.

 

[steve_bank]

On the subject of quanta, Waton continues as follows:

Schroedinger tells us ( as quoted by Eddington in his book: The Nature of the Physical World ): Imagine a sub ether whose surface is covered with ripples. The oscillations of the ripples are a million times faster than those of visible light too fast to come within the scope of gross experience. Individual ripples are beyond our ken; what we can appreciate is a combined effect when the convergence and coalescence of the waves conspire to create a disturbed area large enough compared with the individual ripples, but small from our point of view. Such a disturbed area is recognized as a material particle; in particular it can be an electron. Accordingly, the electron is only a disturbed surface of the sub ether. This means that the electron is not an infinitely small individual unit of matter, it is only a disturbed area of the sub ether. Now, a ripple on the surface from the water is not separate and distinct from the water; it is only a state of the water itself. Thus all material realities are only ripples on the surface of the infinite energy which fills the universe. Hence the continuum is not the distances between the units of matter and the intervals between their motions; the continuum is the infinite energy itself; it is infinite in extension and in duration. There is no vacuum between the units of matter, and there is no hiatus between the events. There is but one absolute, infinite and eternal substance.

Waton presents a critique of science. In essence, science lacks a truly comprehensive approach. Philosophy is require to keep scien ce from degenerating into mere cant.

The oil drop experiment merely quantifies the charge of an electron. The point Waton makes is that an electron is a localized concentration of charge within the universal continuum.

Oh brother.

I used to have a hard copy of Millikan's book The Electron with his apparatus, methods, and data. And how he concluded electric charge is quantized. It is online in PDF.

There is hard physical science as the oil drop experiment, and there is endless philosophical speculations and interpretations of such experiments. Noe of it science.

 

[pood]

The thread is yours. Feel free to elaborate as you wish.

Russia and China were not global powers, they were small military threats with the overt goal of replacing western democracy with global communism by force.

China and Russia are today world powers. This is the direct result of Marxism.

Russia was a world power before Marxism, under Czarist authoritarianism. China was historically a world power before it fell into disrepair, and is a world power today even thought it is Communist in name only.

Here is Waton on this:

But, you say, look at Russia, there communism failed. This the upholders of the present order tell us to convince us that it is of no use to dream of communism. Well, look at Russia. Did communism fail in Russia? Why. communism succeeded there beyond all expectations. It completely destroyed the old order and annihilated its upholders from the top to the bottom, and cleared the terrain for the rule the proletariat and its possession of one sixth of the earth.

Russia possessed one-sixth of the earth before Marxism was ever dreamed of. And annihilating an old order doesn’t mean your new order is any better. It might be worse. Why did the Soviet Union collapse? Answer: it was crap.

A most marvellous achievement! That the Russian revolution could not inaugurate communism as an order of existence in Russia, this is due to the fact that communism is a social order. and not an order of existence for a particular country or a particular nation.

Oh, OK. So the whole world has to become Communist for communism to succeed? Right.

In the midst of a capitalist environment communism in Russia could succeed only as a movement: and that is enough for the time being. But pretty soon communism as a movement will comprehend the whole world. That world revolution will make it possible for communism as a social order.

"Pretty soon" may yet be a long time. But perhaps not.

Dream on.

 

[pood]

“The rule of the proletariat” in Soviet Russia is to laugh. It was a kakistocracy and kleptocracy led by senile old buffoons. It is what the U.S. has become today, led by the No. 1 senile old orange buffoon.

 

[steve_bank]

I don’t see China as a world power, they have economic influence.

Theydo nit have the capacity to project militarily power. They are trying to catch up to the USA. Aircraft carriers. The USA can on short notice mass militarily power most anywhere in the world.

From global reporting China has serous problems. From recent analysis China emphasized exports over developing internal consumption.

Fromm wht I read yiu can’t just cghange jobs especially in you are in tech professions.

I heard it said that as you move out from industrialized areas it is like going back in time.


China has an aging problem, low birth rate. They are also one of the most if not tfe mot jingoistic country in the word. Not conducive to immigration. At a certain age foreign workers are kicked out.

A black guy in my building was in China during Tienanmen Square. He calls China the most racist country in the world.

I listened to an interview with a black African who chose to go to school in China instead of USA He said he thought he would not face the bias he might face in America, and found China to be in intolerant.

It is a conformist state controlled by a central authority. It is not nearly as harsh as Maoism but it has little of the western rights we take for granted.

I doubt this kid of forum could be hosted in China. It would be censored for political speech.

I doubt NR would be allowed to promote his vision of the world becoming Jewish,



Anyone who thinks China makes a case for Marxism is not paying attention to details.


It is still the Chinese Communist Party, but the system is a mix of free market capitalism and socialism.

China officially calls itself a socialist country—specifically "socialism with Chinese characteristics"—while being ruled by the Communist Party of China (CPC). The leadership views socialism as the current reality and necessary stage for development, while communism remains the long-term future goal.

If you think China is a great place, by all means pack up and move. But look before you leap.

If you do not like what Trump is doing look at what China is doing in the South China Sea, with Taiwan, and the conflict with the Philippines.

 

[steve_bank]

If you think MAGA and white supremacists are bad.

Gary Locle was governor of Washington and ambassador to China. He is 3rg generation Chinese American.

As ambassador to China the Chinese media called him a yellow banana.

"Yellow banana" is a derogatory slur directed at people of East Asian descent, particularly in Western countries. It implies the person is "yellow on the outside, white on the inside," suggesting they are Asian by appearance but have adopted Western culture or values, often used to criticize a lack of cultural loyalty.


Yes, in February 2014, a China News Service editorial described outgoing U.S. Ambassador to China, Gary Locke, as a "yellow-skinned, white-hearted banana man". The state-run media article used this racial slur to suggest that, despite his Chinese heritage, Locke was a "race traitor" acting in the interests of the U.S..

The CCP thinks anyone in the world of Chinese decent owes alliance to the homeland. And you think Trump - MAGA is bad.

We know Chinese agents in the USA try to intimidate Chinese who speak out against China.

That is authoritarian communism for you. Don’t hold your breath waiting for the wonderful ‘final true communist state’.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I never had the feeling of looking at teens when I was first in China, but I can definitely see how someone could get that impression. The transition I observed was more like 1980, but that was from looking at Shanghai and nearby environments--I was seeing the best, not the worst. At first I could freely see across crowds--my eye level was above the top of their heads. While I have never had that experience elsewhere I can't really compare as China is the only non-first-world country I have visited at my adult height.

When I visited Cuba on a cruise ship I had a similar feeling/experience. OTOH, our bus drove all over the island, and only so much can be hidden. All in all, Cuba seemed to be on an economic level not uncommon in the Caribbean. Honduras and such on a comparable level. Not down to the Haiti level, even if not at US levels for our poorer states (Mississippi, etc). Our tour guides seemed to feel safe offering some mild criticism of their government, re taxes et al. Having also been to Hong Kong in my misspent youthful Navy days, circa 1963-4, I wonder how I would see Hong Kong now.

Yeah, you can see a lot about a society from some pretty simple observations. Things don't happen in isolation, things like how good is the upkeep/what is the replacement cycle speaks quite loudly. And places going downhill will have underutilized infrastructure. (Glaringly obvious when we were in Zimbabwe.)

 

[No Robots]

The fundamental problem with applied Marxism thus far is that it lacks an explicit spiritual dimension. All that is needed to set mankind on course to fulfillment of its destiny is the fusion of Marxism with cosmic consciousness, what Spinoza calls "knowledge of the union existing between the mind and the whole of nature."