Split Feminism and Islam (was: Yet another war, this time with Iran)

[Derec]

I know that you consider me a far left radical feminist—I’m not but I’ll play along fir this post if you need me to do that.

I definitely do, based on everything you wrote on this forum.

I do imagine that a lot of feminists in the us and elsewhere share a lot of the same views and beliefs as Sarsour, and other feminists. Just like any other group, feminists are comprised of individuals who hold some variation in beliefs, etc.

True, there is a lot of variation. But the politically and culturally dominant forms of feminism are definitely illiberal and sex-negative. I think this has been the case ever since the 70s when 2nd wave feminists like Andrea Dworkin, Katherine MacKinnon et al became prominent.

You may or may not be relieved that the basic tenet of feminism is equal rights for all. Equal rights for all is absolutely a feminist ideal or if you prefer, argument.

That is certainly not the basic tenet of the dominant forms of feminism, which seeks greater status of women at the expense of men. This is exemplified in them championing rules that women should make at least as much as men or that at least half of certain positions must be filled by women.
But this is not the part of feminism that makes them aligned with political Islam. It is their desire to control people, especially when it comes to sexuality. Remember the "#metoo" hysteria, where things went so far that museums were removing female nudes from display. That's also why, for example, Sadiq Khan banning ads showing bikini-clad models fit both Islamist and feminist ideology. Note that the excuse that it was about "body image" does not hold water since a similar ad from the same company (some protein powder I think) that featured a chiseled and almost naked male model was not banned. Hypocrisy is another similarity between political Islam and radical feminism.

That’s it. That’s the whole shebang. Equal rights for all.

If that were the "whole shebang" I would have no problem with it.

Now that does bring up some uncomfortable questions about what is standing in the way of those equal rights, the history, the societal, psychological and social constructs in this society ( mostly talking about US but also Great Britain, Europe and Australia) as well as other parts of the world.

Equal rights should mean just that. But I think radical feminism goes too far when it denies that there are meaningful biological differences between men and women or that it is wrong for men to look at sexualized depictions of attractive women.

Did you know that historically, women in Muslim countries had many more economic rights compared with say, women in the US who did not obtain the right to have credit in their own name until the 1970’s?

Women in Saudi Arabia just got the right to drive a car recently. Girls in Afghanistan cannot go to school past elementary school. But sure, let's cherry pick situations that make Islam look good and the West look bad.

Here, we are accustomed to seeing Muslims as being repressive towards women.

Because they are. But that is a side effect of Islam being repressive toward everyone. It seeks to control how people behave. That is what it has in common with radical feminism. A young woman wants to be a grid girl in F1? Sorry, you can't do it, that's haram, I mean unfeminist!

 

[Toni]

I know that you consider me a far left radical feminist—I’m not but I’ll play along fir this post if you need me to do that.

I definitely do, based on everything you wrote on this forum.

I do imagine that a lot of feminists in the us and elsewhere share a lot of the same views and beliefs as Sarsour, and other feminists. Just like any other group, feminists are comprised of individuals who hold some variation in beliefs, etc.

True, there is a lot of variation. But the politically and culturally dominant forms of feminism are definitely illiberal and sex-negative. I think this has been the case ever since the 70s when 2nd wave feminists like Andrea Dworkin, Katherine MacKinnon et al became prominent.

You may or may not be relieved that the basic tenet of feminism is equal rights for all. Equal rights for all is absolutely a feminist ideal or if you prefer, argument.

That is certainly not the basic tenet of the dominant forms of feminism, which seeks greater status of women at the expense of men. This is exemplified in them championing rules that women should make at least as much as men or that at least half of certain positions must be filled by women.
But this is not the part of feminism that makes them aligned with political Islam. It is their desire to control people, especially when it comes to sexuality. Remember the "#metoo" hysteria, where things went so far that museums were removing female nudes from display. That's also why, for example, Sadiq Khan banning ads showing bikini-clad models fit both Islamist and feminist ideology. Note that the excuse that it was about "body image" does not hold water since a similar ad from the same company (some protein powder I think) that featured a chiseled and almost naked male model was not banned. Hypocrisy is another similarity between political Islam and radical feminism.

That’s it. That’s the whole shebang. Equal rights for all.

If that were the "whole shebang" I would have no problem with it.

Now that does bring up some uncomfortable questions about what is standing in the way of those equal rights, the history, the societal, psychological and social constructs in this society ( mostly talking about US but also Great Britain, Europe and Australia) as well as other parts of the world.

Equal rights should mean just that. But I think radical feminism goes too far when it denies that there are meaningful biological differences between men and women or that it is wrong for men to look at sexualized depictions of attractive women.

Did you know that historically, women in Muslim countries had many more economic rights compared with say, women in the US who did not obtain the right to have credit in their own name until the 1970’s?

Women in Saudi Arabia just got the right to drive a car recently. Girls in Afghanistan cannot go to school past elementary school. But sure, let's cherry pick situations that make Islam look good and the West look bad.

Here, we are accustomed to seeing Muslims as being repressive towards women.

Because they are. But that is a side effect of Islam being repressive toward everyone. It seeks to control how people behave. That is what it has in common with radical feminism. A young woman wants to be a grid girl in F1? Sorry, you can't do it, that's haram, I mean unfeminist!

You are happy enough to cherry pick repressive policies in Islamic cultures, so don’t cast stones from the porch of your glass house,

I was pointing out ways that some ( certainly not all) Muslim countries have afforded women rights that western countries only started allowing women in my lifetime.many of which are under attack now by Christo-fascists,

I definitely understand that some people, make and female, enjoy looking at images of naked people. I also understand ways that can be destructive towards people who do not choose to participate in porn or erotica. Myself? I’m agnostic. But Im not blind to some of the very destructive aspects. This has become particularly horrible re: young men who admire toxic masculinity stances such as believing that (young, attractive— no fatties!) women must make themselves available to them on demand. It’s the same sickness that allowed our country to elect a known rapist and pedophile as POTUS—twice!

 

[Derec]

You are happy enough to cherry pick repressive policies in Islamic cultures, so don’t cast stones from the porch of your glass house,

I am not cherry-picking. Repression is the rule in Islamic societies.

I was pointing out ways that some ( certainly not all) Muslim countries have afforded women rights that western countries only started allowing women in my lifetime.many of which are under attack now by Christo-fascists,

Which countries would those be? And how common is that compared to Islamofascist repression?

I definitely understand that some people, make and female, enjoy looking at images of naked people. I also understand ways that can be destructive towards people who do not choose to participate in porn or erotica.

But those that wish to participate should not be prevented to do so. Illiberal movements, be it Islam or radical feminism cannot abide that people want to do things they personally disapprove of. Radical feminism and Islam want to remake societies in its own image.

Myself? I’m agnostic. But Im not blind to some of the very destructive aspects. This has become particularly horrible re: young men who admire toxic masculinity stances such as believing that (young, attractive— no fatties!) women must make themselves available to them on demand.

I disapprove of that as well, especially nonsense like "your body, my choice" and similar.
But I think this backlash a fully predicable outcome of decades of toxic feminism. Specifically for young men, decades of being told that they are oppressors just because they are male, or that they supposedly have all these privileges that existed in the past but have not existed within their lifetimes. It breeds resentment.

It’s the same sickness that allowed our country to elect a known rapist and pedophile as POTUS—twice!

I think you have that backward. It is partly the backlash to excesses of left-wing culture wars that made Trump appealing to many.
But especially with regard to his 2024 win, there is something else, directly related to the above sentence of yours. People see these exaggerated claims about Trump and then believe everything bad about him is likewise made up.
"Known rapist"? That was a civil case in a jurisdiction especially hostile to Trump. The accuser, EJC, had little to no evidence and had her own credibility problems. She did not know what year the supposed sexual assault took place. Her story of being attacked in a busy Manhattan department store without anybody noticing anything lacks verisimilitude - and it mirrors a storyline from Law and Order SVU. She called rape sexy. She claims to have kept the unwashed rape dress in the back of her closet for a quarter century until she wore it for a TV interview. She only made the allegation when she had a book to promote, a book incidentally about how bad men are.
"Pedophile"? For all the claims, there is precious little evidence. If there was anything to it, why was he not prosecuted for rape of minors instead of nothingburgers like reporting hush money on the wrong form?

I think all of this hyperbolic nonsense, including the silly hush money prosecution, made him look like a victim of politics of personal destruction, and made him more popular.

But none of this has much to do with the Iran War. Maybe mods can spin off this side discussion?

 

[Toni]

You are happy enough to cherry pick repressive policies in Islamic cultures, so don’t cast stones from the porch of your glass house,

I am not cherry-picking. Repression is the rule in Islamic societies.

I was pointing out ways that some ( certainly not all) Muslim countries have afforded women rights that western countries only started allowing women in my lifetime.many of which are under attack now by Christo-fascists,

Which countries would those be? And how common is that compared to Islamofascist repression?

I definitely understand that some people, make and female, enjoy looking at images of naked people. I also understand ways that can be destructive towards people who do not choose to participate in porn or erotica.

But those that wish to participate should not be prevented to do so. Illiberal movements, be it Islam or radical feminism cannot abide that people want to do things they personally disapprove of. Radical feminism and Islam want to remake societies in its own image.

Myself? I’m agnostic. But Im not blind to some of the very destructive aspects. This has become particularly horrible re: young men who admire toxic masculinity stances such as believing that (young, attractive— no fatties!) women must make themselves available to them on demand.

I disapprove of that as well, especially nonsense like "your body, my choice" and similar.
But I think this backlash a fully predicable outcome of decades of toxic feminism. Specifically for young men, decades of being told that they are oppressors just because they are male, or that they supposedly have all these privileges that existed in the past but have not existed within their lifetimes. It breeds resentment.

It’s the same sickness that allowed our country to elect a known rapist and pedophile as POTUS—twice!

I think you have that backward. It is partly the backlash to excesses of left-wing culture wars that made Trump appealing to many.
But especially with regard to his 2024 win, there is something else, directly related to the above sentence of yours. People see these exaggerated claims about Trump and then believe everything bad about him is likewise made up.
"Known rapist"? That was a civil case in a jurisdiction especially hostile to Trump. The accuser, EJC, had little to no evidence and had her own credibility problems. She did not know what year the supposed sexual assault took place. Her story of being attacked in a busy Manhattan department store without anybody noticing anything lacks verisimilitude - and it mirrors a storyline from Law and Order SVU. She called rape sexy. She claims to have kept the unwashed rape dress in the back of her closet for a quarter century until she wore it for a TV interview. She only made the allegation when she had a book to promote, a book incidentally about how bad men are.
"Pedophile"? For all the claims, there is precious little evidence. If there was anything to it, why was he not prosecuted for rape of minors instead of nothingburgers like reporting hush money on the wrong form?

I think all of this hyperbolic nonsense, including the silly hush money prosecution, made him look like a victim of politics of personal destruction, and made him more popular.

But none of this has much to do with the Iran War. Maybe mods can spin off this side discussion?

Wow. It’s women’s fault that incels and rape culture exist….because we believe that women should have equal rights.

Feminists should stupidly ignore that pornography is not always consensual and that pornography can send the message to some people that women exist only for the sexual pleasure of males, that women find degradation and abuse to be erotic, that we are all supposed to carry around DDs on our chests, wax off our pubic hair and give blow jobs to any guy who wants one.

I missed the ultra progressive years that predicated the ultra conservative backlash that has ushered in a known rapist and pedophile as POTUS because of course that’s the rational response.

Do I believe that too many people are so racist that the fact that we had a black POTUS meant they needed a racist as POTUS to while the stain off of our reputation? Apparently you, shamefully so. And of course it is disgraceful to have nominated a black woman abd the only appropriate, predictable response was to re-elect a known racist rapist pedophile with a long history of incompetence and 34 convictions for fraud.

I get that racist, sexist ignorant people believe so. I find it disappointing, to say the least that so many exist in the US. And so ironic that such individuals are so anti-Muslim when they share the same values as Muslim extremists they revile.

 

[Toni]

I’m ignoring nothing but go right ahead and continue your Islamophobia, hatred towards Iranians and ignoring the Christofascists and incel terrorist right here.

[emphasis added]
Besides false equivalence and whataboutism, you are really enamored of this particular slur, aren't you?

Is it a slur? I thought it was a life philosophy.

Lots of people are lonely. Male, female, intersex. Lots of people. Yet some of those people choose to blame others for not finding them in their basements hiding behind computer screens.

There are plenty of women out there who have very poor judgement with regards to men. I've known and been good friends with a few and am related to a couple, as a matter of fact. Some develop better judgment. Some prefer loneliness. Some keep making the same mistakes over and over. I strongly suspect there are plenty of men who are the same. I think I know a couple and may/may not be related to them. My observation is that lonely people are lonely for a host of reasons and for many if not most of them, the only way to remedy that is to do a lot of self examination about their criteria for friendship, romantic relationships, hook ups and see how that is working for them. And if it isn't, then they really need to consider why that is. Yep, plenty of extremely attractive people overlook those who are less attractive. Plenty of wealthy people overlook anyone who isn't in their income bracket. And plenty of people ignore the people they see (should they emerge from their cocoons) every day and discount the value in forming a genuine friendship that may or may not lead to romance or sex or a romantic relationship.

But then again: Is it whataboutism? You are castigating and denigrating women you see as radical feminists--people like me, for example who you consider to be a radical feminist which any radical would laugh themselves silly over--as hating men, hating that men like pornography (so do plenty of women), who dare to want their own careers, to be in charge of their own lives and not to devote their reproductive years to coddling some man child whose ideal woman is some combination of June Cleaver and whoever the latest probably AI generated female is.

I think that all radicalism of whatever stripe or cause shares an uncomfortable amount of common ideology. Just change a couple of words identifying the villains and there isn't much difference. It's much easier than doing the hard work of effecting change. The current set of adolescents over the age of 21 and under 40 seem to think the solution is to blow things up. They want to vent their anger at an imperfect world and don't think beyond what happens after everything is blown up. Which is shortsighted because a lot of them couldn't manage to put together dinner that wasn't some frozen bit of crap. They don't think about what went into making that frozen dinner, how many people worked hard to get it to them, they just think that there will be an endless supply of frozen crap and microwaves. They think they are revolutionaries or idealists but they are not. Largely they haven't suffered beyond their own loneliness and blame the world for not already being Nirvana when they were born.

I'm sorry. I don't have much patience today.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You may or may not be relieved that the basic tenet of feminism is equal rights for all. Equal rights for all is absolutely a feminist ideal or if you prefer, argument.

That’s it. That’s the whole shebang. Equal rights for all.

An ideal that doesn't match up with observed reality.

For example, treating the unequal childcare burden as a society issue rather than a relationship issue.

Those values I’ve seen shared between many different t cultures, no matter what continent people originated from or what their religious persuasion, including none.

We are more alike than different in the ways that are most important

The problem is not the average Muslim. The problem is the tolerance of the misdeeds done by the Iranian regime. Muslims get tarred by this like Republicans get tarred by The Felon.

 

[Toni]

You may or may not be relieved that the basic tenet of feminism is equal rights for all. Equal rights for all is absolutely a feminist ideal or if you prefer, argument.

That’s it. That’s the whole shebang. Equal rights for all.

An ideal that doesn't match up with observed reality.

For example, treating the unequal childcare burden as a society issue rather than a relationship issue.

You need better eye glasses. Or cataract surgery. Or to stop listening to the toxic manosphere. Sure, there is disagreement t over how to achieve equal rights and what that looks like. As is true in most rational discussions.

You have a. Very myopic view of society as a person without children himself and without the capacity to understand or appreciate that men are not the only people who comprise this society nor are they the only ones responsible for creating children nor are the the only ones who value both a family with children and a fulfilling career outside of raising children. Moreover you are extremely myopic to not realize that society needs the talents and skills of women throughout our society, from medical fields to other branches of science and engineering, architecture, music, art, all facets of the entertainment industry, design, production, farming, commerce, computer.technology, engineering if all kinds, etc. etc. etc. which means we need to structure society to support all of its members, not just white males with stay at home wives or wives who choose or are forced to choose between home and a career. Not to mention the many many single parents or those with spouses who become ill or disabled and who require as much of the income the remaining staff can muster.

Those values I’ve seen shared between many different t cultures, no matter what continent people originated from or what their religious persuasion, including none.

We are more alike than different in the ways that are most important

The problem is not the average Muslim. The problem is the tolerance of the misdeeds done by the Iranian regime. Muslims get tarred by this like Republicans get tarred by The Felon.

Oh, honey, it’s not just the GOP who is tarnished by Trump. It’s the entire country! Our standing has diminished very significantly. The world granted us some forebears ce the first time around. Some are being quiet now but our (former) NATO allies atevt just questioning the reliability of the US because of Trump but because we elected him. Twice. That’s on us. They gave every right to make other arrangements.