Split Trans Issues, Split from Roe v Wade is on deck

[Jarhyn]

Jarhyn will not be able to produce any quotes of me equating gender and sex

So you will unequivocally state that you have never said man=male and woman=female nor never upvoted a post where this was stated?

Not once?

(Not to mention, the fact that the gender being assigned to that which is "socially constructed", rather than "biologically formed" ignores the fact that gender IS first biologically formed, so as to present as a biologically biases preference for some later-presented role; denying the biologically formed component is part of the newspeak)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I’m not killing anybody.

The trans that weren't hurting you are getting killed in the men's because you're throwing them out.

Men like you who refuse to hold yourselves and other men accountable for misogyny, anti-LGBTQIA+ sentiment and violence, violence against women and children, sexual violence: YOU are the one killing oeople Loren.

I don't support such violence.

I'm looking at the effects of the position I propose in the context of reality that is very often unpleasant.

YOU are the one who cried that installing individual stalls to add to women’s sense of security was ‘too expensive .’

Because I'm willing to look at unpleasant reality.

WTAF is it about ‘one questionable case?? ‘ are you talking about the kid who raped two different girls in the girls’ restroom at two different t schools??

You still think that there are two sides to rape? The judge did not.

The sole evidence for being trans is "wearing a skirt". Even the article says it didn't look like it was.

I'm not disputing the rape, I'm questioning laying it on trans.

Why should we believe there is a big problem when those who claim there is can't provide a single solid case of it?

 

[Jarhyn]

Why should we believe there is a big problem when those who claim there is can't provide a single solid case of it?

1: they have, unfortunately proven with the rule of large numbers that they can, in fact, present a handful of cases over the decades.

2: the mere handful of cases that can be held up across a population of 300m over all this time indicates that the problem is not in fact "big". In fact, they have almost certainly been scouring every source they can to find every last case to bolster their claims, and they're still coming up woefully short.

3: the cases themselves seem to be instigated by the repeated false claim that it is fruitful or easy to use claims of being trans to get away with molesting or access inappropriate custody settings following commission of sex crimes; the problem is caused by the claiming of there being a problem.

 

[laughing dog]

Why should we believe there is a big problem when those who claim there is can't provide a single solid case of it?

Interesting question coming from a poster who has yet to provide any link to support claims about trans being killed because they aren’t allowed in their preferred restroom facility,

But more importantly, why does anything need to be a “big problem” in order to be addressed? I ask, because “trans rights “ is certainly not a “big problem” from a demographic vantage point because there trans are not a big segment of the population.

Now these issues are important to the trans community. But so is the feeling of safety important to women.

Dismissing the cases of men masquerading as trans as “not trans” misses the point that these men are successively using the masquerade to gain access to victims and treats justified fears as unfounded.

IMO, an emotionally attuned/mature transwoman would understand that cis women don’t wish to see make junk in their private spaces and avoid it. Stalls allow such privacy with ease.

 

[Toni]

I’m not killing anybody.

The trans that weren't hurting you are getting killed in the men's because you're throwing them out.

Men like you who refuse to hold yourselves and other men accountable for misogyny, anti-LGBTQIA+ sentiment and violence, violence against women and children, sexual violence: YOU are the one killing oeople Loren.

I don't support such violence.

I'm looking at the effects of the position I propose in the context of reality that is very often unpleasant.

YOU are the one who cried that installing individual stalls to add to women’s sense of security was ‘too expensive .’

Because I'm willing to look at unpleasant reality.

WTAF is it about ‘one questionable case?? ‘ are you talking about the kid who raped two different girls in the girls’ restroom at two different t schools??

You still think that there are two sides to rape? The judge did not.

The sole evidence for being trans is "wearing a skirt". Even the article says it didn't look like it was.

I'm not disputing the rape, I'm questioning laying it on trans.

Why should we believe there is a big problem when those who claim there is can't provide a single solid case of it?

So it’s still women’s fault that men kill.

Me ‘throwing trans women out’ is your mixed up fantasy not anything I’ve written.

I said doors on stalls.

You say they are too costly.

I never suggested throwing out or barring trans women from bathrooms or locker rooms. Never.

It is not me who does not value transwomen.

It’s you, Loren. You with your arrested development who cannot look at male violence and not find a way to blame it on women.

If men did not beat and rape and murder, women would have no need to fear a male looking body.

You aren’t concerned enough about the safety of women—any woman—to think it worth while to invest in doors.

I have no use for you.

 

[Toni]

I’m not killing anybody.

The trans that weren't hurting you are getting killed in the men's because you're throwing them out.

Men like you who refuse to hold yourselves and other men accountable for misogyny, anti-LGBTQIA+ sentiment and violence, violence against women and children, sexual violence: YOU are the one killing oeople Loren.

I don't support such violence.

I'm looking at the effects of the position I propose in the context of reality that is very often unpleasant.

YOU are the one who cried that installing individual stalls to add to women’s sense of security was ‘too expensive .’

Because I'm willing to look at unpleasant reality.

WTAF is it about ‘one questionable case?? ‘ are you talking about the kid who raped two different girls in the girls’ restroom at two different t schools??

You still think that there are two sides to rape? The judge did not.

The sole evidence for being trans is "wearing a skirt". Even the article says it didn't look like it was.

I'm not disputing the rape, I'm questioning laying it on trans.

Why should we believe there is a big problem when those who claim there is can't provide a single solid case of it?

I don’t think it matters whether the rapist was actually trans. What matters is that merely claiming to be trans allowed him/her ( honestly I don’t know this persons life or medical history) to access his victims in two different schools. The first instance could perhaps not been predicted but the second one could have been. And should have been. Sexual violence against another student no matter the genders or sexes involved should have precluded the perpetrator from access to other victims.

You claimed there was no danger. A couple of high school girls beg to differ.

No one here wants to see anyone harmed, physically, sexually, psychologically.

You just don’t care very much when it is a teenaged girl.

 

[Bomb#20]

Jarhyn will not be able to produce any quotes of me equating gender and sex

So you will unequivocally state that you have never said man=male and woman=female

Never.

(Not sure what your point would be, though. Man=male and woman=female is orthogonal to gender=sex. "Man", "woman", "male" and "female" don't specify whether they're being used to talk about gender or sex. Neither biologists nor sociologists own those words. They're the common heritage of all English speakers.)

nor never upvoted a post where this was stated?

Not once?

How the heck would I know whether every post I ever upvoted refrained from saying anything that silly? Posts say a lot of things; they get upvoted because a reader approves of some main point, not because he or she necessarily agrees with every little detail. I don't believe for a second that you've memorized the entire contents of every post you ever "Like"d either.

(Not to mention, the fact that the gender being assigned to that which is "socially constructed", rather than "biologically formed" ignores the fact that gender IS first biologically formed, so as to present as a biologically biases preference for some later-presented role; denying the biologically formed component is part of the newspeak)

That's word salad. If there's a point in there you want to make, feel free to restate it comprehensibly.

 

[Jarhyn]

I’m not killing anybody.

The trans that weren't hurting you are getting killed in the men's because you're throwing them out.

Men like you who refuse to hold yourselves and other men accountable for misogyny, anti-LGBTQIA+ sentiment and violence, violence against women and children, sexual violence: YOU are the one killing oeople Loren.

I don't support such violence.

I'm looking at the effects of the position I propose in the context of reality that is very often unpleasant.

YOU are the one who cried that installing individual stalls to add to women’s sense of security was ‘too expensive .’

Because I'm willing to look at unpleasant reality.

WTAF is it about ‘one questionable case?? ‘ are you talking about the kid who raped two different girls in the girls’ restroom at two different t schools??

You still think that there are two sides to rape? The judge did not.

The sole evidence for being trans is "wearing a skirt". Even the article says it didn't look like it was.

I'm not disputing the rape, I'm questioning laying it on trans.

Why should we believe there is a big problem when those who claim there is can't provide a single solid case of it?

I don’t think it matters whether the rapist was actually trans. What matters is that merely claiming to be trans allowed him/her ( honestly I don’t know this persons life or medical history) to access his victims in two different schools. The first instance could perhaps not been predicted but the second one could have been. And should have been. Sexual violence against another student no matter the genders or sexes involved should have precluded the perpetrator from access to other victims.

You claimed there was no danger. A couple of high school girls beg to differ.

No one here wants to see anyone harmed, physically, sexually, psychologically.

You just don’t care very much when it is a teenaged girl.

I guess my biggest objection is largely to your framing: this is a problem with failure to take sex pestering seriously in an educational setting.

I have been saying for the last decade and change that the simplest way to address this issue is going to be to create an actual standard for recognizing transition.

The problem with this is that the GOP has not only failed to pick this up and run with it, but they have fought tooth and nail against any such standard, so as to exacerbate the gray areas that cause these kinds of idiotic judgement calls.

The GOP plainly doesn't WANT a solution to work other than their false solution of "pretend that gonads are the beginning and ending of all sex differentiation".

The answer is to present a solution and do our level best to move forward with it over their objections that a problem they claim to care about might be solved, same way as it happened in NY over the custody laws.

 

[Toni]

I’m not killing anybody.

The trans that weren't hurting you are getting killed in the men's because you're throwing them out.

Men like you who refuse to hold yourselves and other men accountable for misogyny, anti-LGBTQIA+ sentiment and violence, violence against women and children, sexual violence: YOU are the one killing oeople Loren.

I don't support such violence.

I'm looking at the effects of the position I propose in the context of reality that is very often unpleasant.

YOU are the one who cried that installing individual stalls to add to women’s sense of security was ‘too expensive .’

Because I'm willing to look at unpleasant reality.

WTAF is it about ‘one questionable case?? ‘ are you talking about the kid who raped two different girls in the girls’ restroom at two different t schools??

You still think that there are two sides to rape? The judge did not.

The sole evidence for being trans is "wearing a skirt". Even the article says it didn't look like it was.

I'm not disputing the rape, I'm questioning laying it on trans.

Why should we believe there is a big problem when those who claim there is can't provide a single solid case of it?

I don’t think it matters whether the rapist was actually trans. What matters is that merely claiming to be trans allowed him/her ( honestly I don’t know this persons life or medical history) to access his victims in two different schools. The first instance could perhaps not been predicted but the second one could have been. And should have been. Sexual violence against another student no matter the genders or sexes involved should have precluded the perpetrator from access to other victims.

You claimed there was no danger. A couple of high school girls beg to differ.

No one here wants to see anyone harmed, physically, sexually, psychologically.

You just don’t care very much when it is a teenaged girl.

I guess my biggest objection is largely to your framing: this is a problem with failure to take sex pestering seriously in an educational setting.

I have been saying for the last decade and change that the simplest way to address this issue is going to be to create an actual standard for recognizing transition.

The problem with this is that the GOP has not only failed to pick this up and run with it, but they have fought tooth and nail against any such standard, so as to exacerbate the gray areas that cause these kinds of idiotic judgement calls.

The GOP plainly doesn't WANT a solution to work other than their false solution of "pretend that gonads are the beginning and ending of all sex differentiation".

The answer is to present a solution and do our level best to move forward with it over their objections that a problem they claim to care about might be solved, same way as it happened in NY over the custody laws.

I absolutely do believe that comprehensive, age appropriate sex education needs to happen. Starting with not forcing toddlers to give or accept affection, hugs, kisses. Up thread I believe that I specifically advocated strongly for comprehensive age appropriate sex education.

There is some room for debate about exactly what is age appropriate.

In general. I advocate for a very comprehensive education of self acceptance. We all are individuals with different abilities, talents, preferences, sensitivities. And also acceptance of others for both their individuality and for the shared.

I agree about needing to establish or recognize some standard for transition. Also that individuals do not always fit into neat categories.

I’m pretty much in favor of abolishing assigning traits to sex or gender. Physicality, sensitivity, strength, determination, preferences for ( insert interest).


Yes, I agree that conservatives ( not just the GOP) have taken the issue of trans people as a red meat issue much as abortion has been. And race, nativity, etc. They are losing on the abortion front— basically all they’ve got is a bunch of prohibitions.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

What is your evidence that stalls require 25% or more space?

<Hits laughing dog over the head with a stall door.>

What happens when you replace the urinals with stalls? Do you not realize a stall is bigger?

 

[laughing dog]

What is your evidence that stalls require 25% or more space?

<Hits laughing dog over the head with a stall door.>

What happens when you replace the urinals with stalls? Do you not realize a stall is bigger?

All I know that last year when this issue came up, I was also on vacation. In the Mn state park mens restrooms the width allocated to urinals without stalls was exactly the same as width for toilets with stalls. All were along the same wall So replacing urinals with toilets and stalls would not have reduced the number of units in the same space.

I realize restroom size, shape and layout may differ but the point is your unsubstantiated claim of needing at least 25% more space is not a universal constant.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

That’s it. That’s the whole issue for me. Someone might be badly traumatized—and I’m including the trans people here-or physically hurt.

It’s not something silly or trivial for anyone to deal with. It can happen long after you are sure you are ok.

I know that you know this but if someone is reading this who never considered just how bad it can be: maybe this is a start of a wake up call.

Probably not. But not because I didn’t try.

Yes, it's possible for someone to be traumatized because they are scared of the wrong thing. Is that more important than somebody being killed?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Quit attacking us and quit blaming us. We didn't start the fire

There wasn't a problem with trans people in women's rooms until the reich wing decided to use it to scare people.

This is not a "reich wing" thing! Just stop it. You need to watch the video in this link below. I'm 100% behind this lady, who hardly fits the profile of a scare mongering "reich winger". She is being very reasonable, and speaking from personal experience:

Trans Women's Locker Room War Hyman vs. Wiener ... Singer Clashes w/State Sen.

BTW, in case you don't know, Scott Wiener (the man in the video) is a shoo-in for Nancy Pelosi's spot, come November. So, he is not some random man from some podunk town. He's going to be wielding some real power soon.

I'm not saying everyone holding the position is a reich winger. Rather, that it's the reich wingers stirring the fire.

Things boiled over fast -- Hyman shouted, "We cannot be raped in the bathroom by men who say they are women! I’m leaving! You guys are NOT protecting women!" before storming out of the room.

First, establish that the threat is real. That step gets skipped. It's a standard propaganda technique: claim B is because of A. People think about whether B really is due to A or not, they tend to not check if A is real in the first place.

 

[Toni]

That’s it. That’s the whole issue for me. Someone might be badly traumatized—and I’m including the trans people here-or physically hurt.

It’s not something silly or trivial for anyone to deal with. It can happen long after you are sure you are ok.

I know that you know this but if someone is reading this who never considered just how bad it can be: maybe this is a start of a wake up call.

Probably not. But not because I didn’t try.

Yes, it's possible for someone to be traumatized because they are scared of the wrong thing. Is that more important than somebody being killed?

The point you seem to be making is that the safety of everyone is entirely the responsibility of (cis)women. We must accept anything anyone with an XY chromosome complement demands of us and if we don't: We are the ones responsible for whatever violence men do.

Fuck that noise.

So, which is better: making doors on stalls universal?
Or someone being killed.

You seem to be arguing that someone being killed is a terrible thing----unless it involves YOU or men in general changing their expectations regarding privacy or spending a few dollars.

So your hierarchy = No change or monetary outlay for Loren > someone getting killed.

The world does not agree.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

We DO look at who might be a predator

You all look alike.

How do you not recognize the major discrimination here?

Take your argument, substitute "black" for "male". Keep those coloreds in their own facilities!

Yeah, I’m talking to you, you rape apologist. YOU are part of the problem.

I certainly don't defend rapists. I just object to you tarring all men with the rapist brush.

YOU think YOU have a right to tell us what we MUST accept.

Keep those colored people out of white schools!

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Why is it the responsibility of women to ignore our fears? Which are well founded?

Why is it the responsibility of Faux Noise viewers to ignore their fears of people of color? Which, according to Faux, are well founded.

From what I can tell, women’s fears about sexual assault arise from their personal experiences, not propaganda purveyors.

Your patronizing and dumb analogy actually strengthens Toni’s point about your apparent disrespect for women.

The problem is treating the risk of rape in general as an indication of the risk of rape in a restroom. Restrooms are a place where people walk in at any time--not exactly conductive to committing rape. Rape almost always happens in isolated situations.

 

[Toni]

We DO look at who might be a predator

You all look alike.

How do you not recognize the major discrimination here?

Take your argument, substitute "black" for "male". Keep those coloreds in their own facilities!

Yeah, I’m talking to you, you rape apologist. YOU are part of the problem.

I certainly don't defend rapists. I just object to you tarring all men with the rapist brush.

YOU think YOU have a right to tell us what we MUST accept.

Keep those colored people out of white schools!

Really, Loren. What utter and complete bullshit, even from you.

You're a misogynist so wrapped up in blonde/bluey eyed white male privilege that it's choking off the blood supply to your head.

After all, it is YOU who insists that it is 'too expensive' to have door stalls and that is more important than not traumatizing women--cis and trans btw.

 

[Toni]

Why is it the responsibility of women to ignore our fears? Which are well founded?

Why is it the responsibility of Faux Noise viewers to ignore their fears of people of color? Which, according to Faux, are well founded.

From what I can tell, women’s fears about sexual assault arise from their personal experiences, not propaganda purveyors.

Your patronizing and dumb analogy actually strengthens Toni’s point about your apparent disrespect for women.

The problem is treating the risk of rape in general as an indication of the risk of rape in a restroom. Restrooms are a place where people walk in at any time--not exactly conductive to committing rape. Rape almost always happens in isolated situations.

The problem is, Loren, that you are unable to see anything from anyone else's perspective or to take them at their word.

Your problem is that you think that it is so important that you be able to look at all the naked men (and women) you want to in a locker room and that is much more important than another human being's desire for privacy and modesty.

Your problem is that you think somehow you are qualified to set any standard at all beyond your own personal preferences.

You, Loren, are the problem.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

How many times is there actually a man hunting for victims in a women's facility??

Every single time some asshole ex-husband or ex-boyfriend is hunting their former wife/girlfriend. And sometimes when someone is stalking a girl or woman they want to be in a relationship with and won't take "no" for an answer. And occasionally when a creeper wants to be creepy. I don't know the dimensions of the incel problem but women are routinely targeted for harassment and coercion by men in our society.

Any time a man shows up in a women-only space like a locker room or restroom there's a good change he's a stalker looking for his soon-to-be victim. Women don't want to be constantly aware of potential peril in their everyday lives, they have to be.

And he's going to be able to that without promptly getting arrested how? ID will say M, he'll be busted, same as would currently happen. Nothing changes.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

We DO look at who might be a predator

You all look alike.

How do you not recognize the major discrimination here?

In a woman's locker room? Are you suggesting that men (nots transgender, but men in general) should be allowed in?

Yeah, I’m talking to you, you rape apologist. YOU are part of the problem

I certainly don't defend rapists. I just object to you tarring all men with the rapist brush.

I don't see Toni calling all men rapists. That is likely because she hasn't... ever.

Toni has been very specific on the specific situation in which it becomes a fight or flight instinctual reaction, in a gender segregated space. That you would say she is broad brushing all men is either a fabrication or you are getting lazy with hyperbole.

YOU think YOU have a right to tell us what we MUST accept.

Keep those colored people out of white schools!

Men should be allowed in any room they want!