• Welcome to the Internet Infidels Discussion Board.

Why is the psychology of the Bible so shallow?

The Bible's main theme: innocent blood, when shed, erases the sins of others -- is immoral, irrational, and -- shallow.

No, it's not. That's, specifically, S:t Augustine's reading of the Bible. From his the City of God. He came up with that by himself. It's not how the Bible was originally was meant to be interpretted. At the very least, an interpretation so rare nobody else mentioned it.

The Christianity we have today is mostly shaped by S:t Augustines interpretation. By the time he enterred the picture the Bible was already written, compiled and the canon had been set.

The biggest problem the authors of the Bible had was that Jesus was explicitly named as the Messiah, and as such there's a bunch of Jewish prophecy he needs to live up to. The most basic is that the Messiah is a conquering king. The Jesus movement obviously was an attempt to stir up a Jewish revolt and overthrow the Roman rule (and recreate what they had under the Hasmonean dynasty). But the Jesus revolt didn't get traction and was crushed.

Christianity becomes it's own thing when the surviving followers start doing theological backflips and try massaging Jewish prophecy to make it work, even though it didn't. This is what the Bible is. It's a confusing mix of Jews re-interpretting Jewish prophecy, and gentiles trying to understand Jewish prophecy. Some authors are familiar with Judaism and assume the reader is as well. Some authors are not (ie Greek) and are trying to explain Judaism to an imagined gentile audience (and getting details wrong). The result is a new theology entirely. A new theology that was not developed by a single mind, a committee or voted on. It was a bunch of head strong characters who pulled in different directions.

I'm not sure who came up with this narrative. But, I think, it's pretty standard among the serious scholars of the Bible.

Anyway, you're assuming that S.t Augustines interpretation was the intended interpretation from the start. That's a pretty unlikely scenario. We know this because the Jewish interpretation still survives.

It reminds me of the Kabalah. The Kabalah in its original form is just nonsense. Stuff mystics have seen in visions. The value comes from the tens of thousands of Rabbis who over the centuries have tried to make sense of it. That makes the system valuable today.
 
Thoughts?
Thank you for opening a discussion on this important question. What psychology do we find in the Bible, particularly in the portrayal of Jesus? I find it remarkable that you see nothing of substance when you show so much discernment in other areas. Perhaps there is a problem in what we understand as psychology. Perhaps we can start with Spinoza. Spinoza identifies three primary modes of thought: imaginatio, ratio, and scientia intuitiva. The first of these is thought that is wholly based on sense perception. The second is based on abstract reasoning. The third is based on direct apperception. The vast majority of people are locked in imaginatio. A very few attain to ratio. And it has thus far been the case that only the truly exceptional have been blessed with the full development of scientia intuitiva. Jesus is the clearest example we have of this select order. It is natural that those locked in imaginatio and ratio would not see the value or even the existence of scientia intuitiva.

When a superior man hears of the Tao,
he immediately begins to embody it.
When an average man hears of the Tao,
he half believes it, half doubts it.
When a foolish man hears of the Tao,
he laughs out loud.
If he didn't laugh,
it wouldn't be the Tao.

Jesus will ever and always serve as the exemplar of scientia intuitiva. We are quite fortunate to have the Bible to provide us with a means of approaching this order of thinking. It is all the more remarkable that the psychologic portrait of Jesus was provided by the rustics who surrounded him. Constantin Brunner provides a captivating portrait of their achievement in the appendix to his book Our Christ. In this appendix, he attacks the idea that Jesus is a myth. The following passage focusses on the vivid psychologic portrait of Jesus in the Gospels, and contrasts it with other literary works:

I would almost have to reprint the whole book here, in order to give due attention to all the features, both tender and tempestuous, which comprise Christ's characterization in the Gospels, and to point out anew the integrity of this portrayal. In general terms, we can say that, in the whole of Jewish literature apart from this, in the whole of Greek and Indian literature, there is not a single example even remotely similar in its means of depicting human character. Furthermore, nothing in the modern psychological novel approaches this portrayal; one could wish that the novelists would bring into being a man such as this once in a while. Why do Drews and Lublinski not take a few ideal passages of our literature and conjure up and fabricate a figure like this with such features of bronze, such vitality, and with similar impact on the history of mankind? The older critics, including David Friedrich Strauss, might help them—but it would take us too far, and in any case it would be superfluous, if we were to discuss him in detail. Strauss is only Strauss; as an exponent of historical criticism he suffers, like the other critics, from ignorance of the times and ignorance of Christ. In the end we are left with Christ against Strauss; this tiny trickle of water thinks it can extinguish the blaze which encompasses the world! Furthermore (and this is a most remote demonstration) every one of Shakespeare's characters—leaving aside one small detail, i.e., that no character of his has ever had a comparable influence on world history, and concentrating for the moment on psychological realities—every one of Shakespeare's characters is put into the shade by this character who is supposed to have been invented in passing by these plebeians. What is Hamlet compared with Christ! The depths attained by these most consummate of peasant poets are utterly unfathomable. A great genius, even, may give us a lifelong portrayal of himself, in books, letters and conversations—but who will say that Goethe, of whose life we know a great deal, is presented to us as tangibly and vividly as Christ, of whose life we know practically nothing? (And everyone has a picture of Christ, whereas a very few educated people have one of Goethe!) How many people, indeed, how many poets there must have been among the Jews at that time, more highly gifted with imagination, psychology and language than our Goethe—so the critics surmise—that they were able to describe a fictitious person so much more perfectly than Goethe was able to describe himself! And, moreover, it was not their intention really to give such a description anyway! No image of a human being arises before us with such rounded fullness of life as the image of this most remarkable of all men, the Christ of the Evangelists. And what sly foxes these Evangelists were! With their stupendous erudition, they pretended to be such blockheads that they did not even understand the words, "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees" and replied, "It is because we took no bread" (Mt. 16:7); when their Master was sorrowful unto death, they slept, and when he was in mortal danger, they ran away. Thus they give themselves the comic roles in their novel, they play the part of the unwitting comic fool, pretending that they do not understand a word of Christ's spoken wisdom, of these truths which open up the depths of heaven and earth—truths which were taught by no one but themselves, which they put into the mouth of their fictional hero! Such rogues, pulling the wool over our eyes like this? Nor can they have been motivated by praiseworthy modesty, for on the other hand they exhibit the most shameless self-consciousness of genius. But it would be wrong to hold them responsible, for they must have been quite mad; not only were these great writers a million times more stupid than what they wrote, in the end they even believed in it themselves, as if it were real. They became so entangled in the net of their own delusion that they let themselves be killed for the sake of their fictional hero. They must have been really out of their minds, really demented geniuses; that explains why, whenever they seem to be blockheads, they are in fact hiding their own genius—or else they were insane blockheads simulating genius. Now, however, Herr Arthur Drews and Herr Samuel Lublinski have got behind it all, whatever it may be; so far they have not told us what they have got behind.

No. It Is all too much. At this point religion is after all better than free criticism, not subordinated to reason.

Any serious student of human psychology must eventually confront the psychology of Jesus presented in the Bible. A daunting task! No wonder so many prefer to simply dismiss it.
 
Thoughts?
Thank you for opening a discussion on this important question. What psychology do we find in the Bible, particularly in the portrayal of Jesus? I find it remarkable that you see nothing of substance when you show so much discernment in other areas. Perhaps there is a problem in what we understand as psychology. Perhaps we can start with Spinoza. Spinoza identifies three primary modes of thought: imaginatio, ratio, and scientia intuitiva. The first of these is thought that is wholly based on sense perception. The second is based on abstract reasoning. The third is based on direct apperception. The vast majority of people are locked in imaginatio. A very few attain to ratio. And it has thus far been the case that only the truly exceptional have been blessed with the full development of scientia intuitiva. Jesus is the clearest example we have of this select order. It is natural that those locked in imaginatio and ratio would not see the value or even the existence of scientia intuitiva.

When a superior man hears of the Tao,
he immediately begins to embody it.
When an average man hears of the Tao,
he half believes it, half doubts it.
When a foolish man hears of the Tao,
he laughs out loud.
If he didn't laugh,
it wouldn't be the Tao.

Jesus will ever and always serve as the exemplar of scientia intuitiva. We are quite fortunate to have the Bible to provide us with a means of approaching this order of thinking. It is all the more remarkable that the psychologic portrait of Jesus was provided by the rustics who surrounded him. Constantin Brunner provides a captivating portrait of their achievement in the appendix to his book Our Christ. In this appendix, he attacks the idea that Jesus is a myth. The following passage focusses on the vivid psychologic portrait of Jesus in the Gospels, and contrasts it with other literary works:

I would almost have to reprint the whole book here, in order to give due attention to all the features, both tender and tempestuous, which comprise Christ's characterization in the Gospels, and to point out anew the integrity of this portrayal. In general terms, we can say that, in the whole of Jewish literature apart from this, in the whole of Greek and Indian literature, there is not a single example even remotely similar in its means of depicting human character. Furthermore, nothing in the modern psychological novel approaches this portrayal; one could wish that the novelists would bring into being a man such as this once in a while. Why do Drews and Lublinski not take a few ideal passages of our literature and conjure up and fabricate a figure like this with such features of bronze, such vitality, and with similar impact on the history of mankind? The older critics, including David Friedrich Strauss, might help them—but it would take us too far, and in any case it would be superfluous, if we were to discuss him in detail. Strauss is only Strauss; as an exponent of historical criticism he suffers, like the other critics, from ignorance of the times and ignorance of Christ. In the end we are left with Christ against Strauss; this tiny trickle of water thinks it can extinguish the blaze which encompasses the world! Furthermore (and this is a most remote demonstration) every one of Shakespeare's characters—leaving aside one small detail, i.e., that no character of his has ever had a comparable influence on world history, and concentrating for the moment on psychological realities—every one of Shakespeare's characters is put into the shade by this character who is supposed to have been invented in passing by these plebeians. What is Hamlet compared with Christ! The depths attained by these most consummate of peasant poets are utterly unfathomable. A great genius, even, may give us a lifelong portrayal of himself, in books, letters and conversations—but who will say that Goethe, of whose life we know a great deal, is presented to us as tangibly and vividly as Christ, of whose life we know practically nothing? (And everyone has a picture of Christ, whereas a very few educated people have one of Goethe!) How many people, indeed, how many poets there must have been among the Jews at that time, more highly gifted with imagination, psychology and language than our Goethe—so the critics surmise—that they were able to describe a fictitious person so much more perfectly than Goethe was able to describe himself! And, moreover, it was not their intention really to give such a description anyway! No image of a human being arises before us with such rounded fullness of life as the image of this most remarkable of all men, the Christ of the Evangelists. And what sly foxes these Evangelists were! With their stupendous erudition, they pretended to be such blockheads that they did not even understand the words, "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees" and replied, "It is because we took no bread" (Mt. 16:7); when their Master was sorrowful unto death, they slept, and when he was in mortal danger, they ran away. Thus they give themselves the comic roles in their novel, they play the part of the unwitting comic fool, pretending that they do not understand a word of Christ's spoken wisdom, of these truths which open up the depths of heaven and earth—truths which were taught by no one but themselves, which they put into the mouth of their fictional hero! Such rogues, pulling the wool over our eyes like this? Nor can they have been motivated by praiseworthy modesty, for on the other hand they exhibit the most shameless self-consciousness of genius. But it would be wrong to hold them responsible, for they must have been quite mad; not only were these great writers a million times more stupid than what they wrote, in the end they even believed in it themselves, as if it were real. They became so entangled in the net of their own delusion that they let themselves be killed for the sake of their fictional hero. They must have been really out of their minds, really demented geniuses; that explains why, whenever they seem to be blockheads, they are in fact hiding their own genius—or else they were insane blockheads simulating genius. Now, however, Herr Arthur Drews and Herr Samuel Lublinski have got behind it all, whatever it may be; so far they have not told us what they have got behind.

No. It Is all too much. At this point religion is after all better than free criticism, not subordinated to reason.

Any serious student of human psychology must eventually confront the psychology of Jesus presented in the Bible. A daunting task! No wonder so many prefer to simply dismiss it.

Jesus is passive agressive and childish, resting on threats to get his way (or his daddy is going to get you).

Nietzsche pointed out that after Jesus gets executed he flips the script and claims that losing is really winning. That's what little children might do who loses.

Its rediculous that a grown man would behave and think like this. People like this exist. But we don't respect them.

And like I said, other contemporary works manage just fine with psychological depth in the characters and sophisticated narrative forms. So we know the ancients could have done better.

The lack of psychological sophistication of the Bible needs an explanation imho.
 
The lack of psychological sophistication of the Bible needs an explanation imho.
It’s a pablum for the masses, not for the intellectual elite.
The Bible seems shallow to you because you’re so deep. 😐
 
Ya never heard Jacob Freud? He was the cousin of Moses.

like saying ancient Greeks were not mathematically sophisticated, in our modern context. No kiddng.

Back in the 90s I watched a Bill Moyers show that had a panel discussion on the psychology in some of the bible stories. A panel of psychologists and cleric s. There is a psychology in the bible, but it is in the context of the culture.

I read Wihelm's translations of the ancient Chinese I Ching. In he intro he goes though the symbolism. Heaven above meant the aristocracy. Erato below was the common people. And so on. For ancient practitioners it was a psychological tool toguide people through problems.

Bill Moyers explored psychological, mythological, and human-meaning themes in biblical and sacred texts primarily through two major PBS television series: Genesis: A Living Conversation (1996) and Joseph Campbell and the Power of Myth (1988).


Genesis: A Living Conversation

Genesis was a 10-part series produced to stimulate interfaith dialogue in a democratic spirit. Writers, artists, psychologists, composers, lawyers, college presidents, journalists, translators and Biblical scholars discuss, debate and discover the great stories of Genesis.

Genesis logoThe stories in the book of Genesis — creation, humanity’s fall, the flood, Abraham and Isaac, Joseph in Egypt, and more — have intrigued and inspired Jews, Christians, and Muslims alike for millennia.

Join journalist Bill Moyers as he leads some of the most passionate and thoughtful Bible discussions ever conducted. In these lively small-group conversations, dozens of accomplished people from all walks of life and many faith traditions bring their unique perspectives to 10 well-known biblical stories. They share personal insights, challenge ideas, and ultimately learn from each other. At the center of each discussion lies the Genesis story itself- by turns elusive, uplifting, shocking, tragic and poignant, but always endlessly fascinating. (1996)

I reject modern Christianity that claims it is based on a consistent morality in the bible, which does not exist, it is not there.

But it is intellectually shallow to say there is no psychology in the stories.ies
 
Back
Top Bottom