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Israeli elections: with left-of-center Zionist Union pulling ahead in polls, is a new chance at Palestinian peace coming?

and Israel withdrew completely from Gaza leaving behind infrastructure like hundreds of green houses etc.

Yeah, Israel built up Gaza to be the Riviera of the Middle East! Everything was sunshine and roses in the strip...hey, it's all beachfront property! Israel built resorts and schools and meadows and cultural centers that celebrated their love for the Arab culture and then - despite being given a paradise on Earth and billions of dollars to develop a free and peaceful state, those dirty Ay-rabs destroyed it all!


Israel tried really, really hard to love the Gaza strip, but those nasty Palestinians pissed on it all and built rockets with all the flowers that Israel gave them! Who can negotiate with these terrorists?

:rolleyes:
Your sarcasm stinks to high heaven!
 
The hoopla against the Israeli occupation of Gaza by mainly the left and their media finally had the desired effect and Israel withdrew completely from Gaza leaving behind infrastructure like hundreds of green houses etc. How were the Israelis rewarded ? They were rewarded by the left shifting tack and the onslaught of thousands rocket attacks into Israel. If they ever leave the West Bank the same thing will happen, it will become another Gaza, threatening Israeli civilians by a constant rocket bombardment.

Gaza is far less important to the Israeli right wingers than the West Bank is. And Israel never withdrew completely. The ongoing blockade is meant to collectively punish Gazans, and has crippled their economy. But again, don't bother with facts, just blame the fucking Arabs for everything.
I suppose Egypt which has closed the smuggling tunnels on the border with Gaza, and their bombing raids on terrorist targets isn't mentioned because hey, it's Arabs versus Arabs not those filthy Joose!
 
I suppose Egypt which has closed the smuggling tunnels on the border with Gaza, and their bombing raids on terrorist targets isn't mentioned because hey, it's Arabs versus Arabs not those filthy Joose!

No, Egypt just wants to keep the U.S. aid dollars flowing in. Which it only gets because it keeps the peace with Israel, and keeps the religious elements of Egyptian society suppressed even if it means circumventing the constitution.
 
I suppose Egypt which has closed the smuggling tunnels on the border with Gaza, and their bombing raids on terrorist targets isn't mentioned because hey, it's Arabs versus Arabs not those filthy Joose!

No, Egypt just wants to keep the U.S. aid dollars flowing in. Which it only gets because it keeps the peace with Israel, and keeps the religious elements of Egyptian society suppressed even if it means circumventing the constitution.

Do you have evidence that the Egyptian blockade against Gaza is a term of aid condition with the US or a term of a peace treaty with Israel?
 
http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/06/12/us-usa-foreign-aid-congress-idUSN1226424120070612

The House Appropriations Committee approved a wide-ranging foreign aid bill for next year that would hold back $200 million in military funds for Egypt until the close U.S. ally takes steps to curb police abuses, reform its judicial system and stop weapons smuggling from Egypt to Gaza.

I will grant that Egypt has reasons apart from American support to be wary of Hamas, especially in recent years, but it would not participate in Israel's abuse of Gaza to the extent it does unless U.S. dollars were a driving factor.
 
No, Israel, with some help from Egypt, has at all times retained control over everything that comes in and out of Gaza, and has never allowed commerce to be conducted in a manner that would allow it to thrive. Moreover, the extent of the collective punishment is abhorrent to everyone except apologists.

There was a period where only weapons were restricted. It was short because of Hamas' actions, they clamped down on dual-use items.

You obviously did not understand what I said.

I understood it perfectly. I simply know, as everyone else does, that it's bullshit constructed out of your inane misconceptions. The polls show that most Palestinians are willing to not only accept a two-state solution, but one that recognizes Israel as a Jewish state. That's not perpetual war. Your contention is that they're all bloodthirsty liars, which, again, is just a product of your own racist, idiotic, and inane misconceptions.

No, you didn't. You continue to make point #1 which I have never disagreed with. You are ignoring point #2.

Few polls look at this elephant, though. I managed to track down a reference to one although the original seems to be dead:

http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2011/07/details-from-poll-of-palestinian-arabs.html
(And if you don't like a Jewish source, Wikipedia mentions the same poll, it's just not easy to link to.)

article said:
I can accept permanently a two-state solution with one a homeland for the Palestinian people living side-by-side with Israel, a homeland for the Jewish people. - 30%
The real goal should to start with a two state solution but then move to it all being one Palestinian state - 66%

In other words, don't actually make peace.

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http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/06/12/us-usa-foreign-aid-congress-idUSN1226424120070612

The House Appropriations Committee approved a wide-ranging foreign aid bill for next year that would hold back $200 million in military funds for Egypt until the close U.S. ally takes steps to curb police abuses, reform its judicial system and stop weapons smuggling from Egypt to Gaza.

I will grant that Egypt has reasons apart from American support to be wary of Hamas, especially in recent years, but it would not participate in Israel's abuse of Gaza to the extent it does unless U.S. dollars were a driving factor.

Stop [/b]weapons[/b] smuggling. Not consumer goods.
 
There was a period where only weapons were restricted. It was short because of Hamas' actions, they clamped down on dual-use items.

You're making shit up, as you always do when your slobbering apologia is met with fact. But, given that you're the same person who claimed that the blockade didn't actually exist when the IDF itself stated otherwise, nobody would expect you to say anything truthful or accurate about this.

HRW, from January 2006, before Hamas took office:

http://www.hrw.org/legacy/wr2k6/pdf/israelopt.pdf

In August and September 2005, Israel unilaterally withdrew approximately eight thousand settlers, along with military personnel and installations, from the Gaza Strip and four small settlements in the northern West Bank near Jenin. While Israel has since declared the Gaza Strip a “foreign territory” and the crossings between Gaza and Israel “international borders,” under international humanitarian law (IHL), Gaza remains occupied, and Israel retains its responsibilities for the welfare of Gaza residents. Israel maintains effective control over Gaza by regulating movement in and out of the Strip as well as the airspace, sea space, public utilities and population registry. In addition, Israel declared the right to re-enter Gaza militarily at any time in its “Disengagement Plan” Since the withdrawal, Israel has carried out aerial bombardments, including targeted killings, and has fired artillery into the northeastern corner of Gaza.

...

The Israeli authorities continue a policy of closure, imposing severe and frequently arbitrary restrictions on freedom of movement in the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and East Jerusalem, contributing to a serious humanitarian crisis marked by extreme poverty, unemployment, and food insecurity. The movement restrictions also have severely compromised Palestinian residents’ access to health care, education, and other services. As of August 1, 2005, the U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) reported 376 closure obstacles, down from 605 in February. However, this decrease, a result of the Sharm summit and the subsequent decrease in fighting, is offset by an increase in the number of “flying checkpoints” (currently an average of sixty each month), which usually consist of a military jeep blocking a road and checking all traffic for an undisclosed period of time; an increase in concrete military towers and “road protection barriers”, which block Palestinian traffic from entering settler-only roads through the OPT; and the increased movement restrictions associated with the “separation barrier” or “wall” that Israel is building mostly inside the West Bank.

So, for about the 50 billionth time, Loren, you are wrong and have no clue what you're talking about, at all.

Allow the forum a moment to collectively process this shocking, unexpected revelation.

No, you didn't. You continue to make point #1 which I have never disagreed with. You are ignoring point #2.

Few polls look at this elephant, though. I managed to track down a reference to one although the original seems to be dead:

http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2011/07/details-from-poll-of-palestinian-arabs.html
(And if you don't like a Jewish source, Wikipedia mentions the same poll, it's just not easy to link to.)

I can accept permanently a two-state solution with one a homeland for the Palestinian people living side-by-side with Israel, a homeland for the Jewish people. - 30%
The real goal should to start with a two state solution but then move to it all being one Palestinian state - 66%

In other words, don't actually make peace.

Actually, no. That poll is dogshit. The Israel Project is not a reliable source for data on an issue like this. It is a Zionist propaganda think tank that dresses itself up as a source of real, objective scholarship.

Again, allow the forum a moment to overcome the shock and surprise of seeing you cite a biased, unreliable source in order to further your agenda of demonizing Arabs.

While they do that, let's have a look at what real polls have to say:

http://www.cfr.org/israel/shikaki-palestinians-support-hamas-but-most-favor-negotiated-peace-israel/p11522

The public takes a position almost right in the middle between Fatah and Hamas. On the one hand, two-thirds [of those polled] support Hamas’ views that it should not support the state of Israel as a precondition for international support or for entering negotiations with Israel. So in this instance we clearly see the public taking the position of Hamas rather than the position of Fatah or the president. But to the question of “If there is a peace agreement and the issues of the conflict are resolved and a two-state solution is adopted and a Palestinian state is created,” a full three-fourths say they would not only support recognition of Israel but also support reconciliation between the two peoples. In fact two-thirds of the public are willing to go further and agree to a formula whereby the Palestinians would not only recognize Israel but would recognize the Jewish nature of the state of Israel as part of a peace agreement.

The public is a lot more moderate than Fatah and Hamas put together when it comes to a two-state solution.


Again, the last bit about recognizing Israel as a Jewish state renders your contention null barring credible evidence to the contrary, putting aside all manner of mental gymnastics and just generalized fucking racism.

So that's another talking point down the drain, Loren.

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Stop weapons smuggling. Not consumer goods.

Yeah, we all know what your definition of "dual use" looks like, Mr. "No Blockade." :rolleyes:

Israel wants to collectively punish Gaza, it needs Egypt's help to do that, and the U.S. government, which Israel and its supporters have essentially monopolized, holds the purse for the Egyptians. This isn't a tough one to figure out.
 
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I suppose Egypt which has closed the smuggling tunnels on the border with Gaza, and their bombing raids on terrorist targets isn't mentioned because hey, it's Arabs versus Arabs not those filthy Joose!

No, Egypt just wants to keep the U.S. aid dollars flowing in. Which it only gets because it keeps the peace with Israel, and keeps the religious elements of Egyptian society suppressed even if it means circumventing the constitution.

Egyptian society weren't suppressed under the Muslim Brotherhood?
 
You're making shit up, as you always do when your slobbering apologia is met with fact. But, given that you're the same person who claimed that the blockade didn't actually exist when the IDF itself stated otherwise, nobody would expect you to say anything truthful or accurate about this.

HRW, from January 2006, before Hamas took office:

http://www.hrw.org/legacy/wr2k6/pdf/israelopt.pdf

HRW is not a credible source about Israel.

Actually, no. That poll is dogshit. The Israel Project is not a reliable source for data on an issue like this. It is a Zionist propaganda think tank that dresses itself up as a source of real, objective scholarship.

They actually asked the questions that most pollsters won't touch. Got any other poll that asks the question and gets a different answer??

Again, allow the forum a moment to overcome the shock and surprise of seeing you cite a biased, unreliable source in order to further your agenda of demonizing Arabs.

While they do that, let's have a look at what real polls have to say:

Continuing to prove that they want a "peace" agreement is meaningless. The issue is what happens afterwards.
 
No, Egypt just wants to keep the U.S. aid dollars flowing in. Which it only gets because it keeps the peace with Israel, and keeps the religious elements of Egyptian society suppressed even if it means circumventing the constitution.

Do you have evidence that the Egyptian blockade against Gaza is a term of aid condition with the US or a term of a peace treaty with Israel?

Hamas are the only democratically elected Arab political leaders in the region.

It may have something to do with a fear of democracy.
 
Do you have evidence that the Egyptian blockade against Gaza is a term of aid condition with the US or a term of a peace treaty with Israel?

Hamas are the only democratically elected Arab political leaders in the region.

It may have something to do with a fear of democracy.

There haven't been elections since 2006. Somehow I don't think the idea of democracy was one election and then you're done permanently.

Besides, Sisi was voted in overwhelmingly in Egypt.
 
Hamas are the only democratically elected Arab political leaders in the region.

It may have something to do with a fear of democracy.

There haven't been elections since 2006. Somehow I don't think the idea of democracy was one election and then you're done permanently.

Besides, Sisi was voted in overwhelmingly in Egypt.

If you want to call that a free election.

Nobody gets 90% in a free and open election. It doesn't happen.

And it isn't the fault of Hamas that Israel immediately nullified the election and basically punished the Palestinians for voting the wrong way.

The fact remains, in the whole region Hamas has the only Arab democratically elected leaders. At least the one's Israel hasn't killed.
 
HRW is not a credible source about Israel.

Its findings are broadly consistent with the majority of the world's human rights NGOs. But you think they're all part of some massive conspiracy. Given that you made the claim to begin with, and the only source you've provided in this thread was crap, you don't have much room to talk, Mr. "No Blockade."

They actually asked the questions that most pollsters won't touch. Got any other poll that asks the question and gets a different answer?

The poll I produced indicates that most Palestinians will support a two state solution, and recognize Israel as a Jewish state. Thus, it's up to you to find credible evidence that this sentiment is insincere. But unsurprisingly, all you can conjure up is biased horseshit.
 
Do you have evidence that the Egyptian blockade against Gaza is a term of aid condition with the US or a term of a peace treaty with Israel?

Hamas are the only democratically elected Arab political leaders in the region.

It may have something to do with a fear of democracy.

No. They had one election. When you get into power and then don't hold any more elections that's not being democratic.
 
There haven't been elections since 2006. Somehow I don't think the idea of democracy was one election and then you're done permanently.

Besides, Sisi was voted in overwhelmingly in Egypt.

If you want to call that a free election.

Nobody gets 90% in a free and open election. It doesn't happen.

And it isn't the fault of Hamas that Israel immediately nullified the election and basically punished the Palestinians for voting the wrong way.

The fact remains, in the whole region Hamas has the only Arab democratically elected leaders. At least the one's Israel hasn't killed.

It certainly can happen in a fledgling democracy.

In an established democracy it will never happen because the candidates know how to position themselves--if you're that unpopular it says you should change your position to be more mainstream.
 
Its findings are broadly consistent with the majority of the world's human rights NGOs. But you think they're all part of some massive conspiracy. Given that you made the claim to begin with, and the only source you've provided in this thread was crap, you don't have much room to talk, Mr. "No Blockade."

Most of the non-Israeli NGOs take a very biased position on Israel/Palestine.

They actually asked the questions that most pollsters won't touch. Got any other poll that asks the question and gets a different answer?

The poll I produced indicates that most Palestinians will support a two state solution, and recognize Israel as a Jewish state. Thus, it's up to you to find credible evidence that this sentiment is insincere. But unsurprisingly, all you can conjure up is biased horseshit.

Your poll is from almost a decade ago.

The very absence of data is indicative in this case--we have one poll that asked a question that got a result most people don't like to see. There have been plenty of polls since--why aren't they following up on that answer? Perhaps because they don't want to see the truth.
 
There haven't been elections since 2006. Somehow I don't think the idea of democracy was one election and then you're done permanently.

Besides, Sisi was voted in overwhelmingly in Egypt.

If you want to call that a free election.

Nobody gets 90% in a free and open election. It doesn't happen.

And it isn't the fault of Hamas that Israel immediately nullified the election and basically punished the Palestinians for voting the wrong way.

The fact remains, in the whole region Hamas has the only Arab democratically elected leaders. At least the one's Israel hasn't killed.

Are you aware what Hamas stands for? Google their charter if you're not! You seem to think that they are the equivalent to a Western style democratic party. First of all, there's no human rights, they eliminate gays for example. Gender equality is non existent, xtians are non existent in Hamas controlled Gaza or anyone else except muslims. They commit war crimes by aiming their rockets indiscriminately at Israeli civilian centres, and if that's not enogh, they fire their rockets close to or from mosques, UN facilities, schools, hospitals and have a dead baby policy when Israel retaliates and a child may be killed, the baby is transported to wherever the media is so pictures can be shown to a media that up to now has shown no criticism of these tactics even though it's common knowledge among the more astute members of this media. Thereby assuring that these tactics work so Hamas does it over and over again. Showing a dead baby on the front cover of newspapers sells. Look at what those Joose have done, bombed a residential are and killed babies. How many know that the IDF drops leaflets, actually phone the residents to get the hell out because that place is about to be bombed. No other nation on earth does that, no other nation tries to keep the civilian casualties to a minimum as do the IDF.
 
Most of the non-Israeli NGOs take a very biased position on Israel/Palestine.

Yeah, that must be it. It couldn't possibly be that they're correct, and that you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

Your poll is from almost a decade ago.

The very absence of data is indicative in this case--we have one poll that asked a question that got a result most people don't like to see. There have been plenty of polls since--why aren't they following up on that answer? Perhaps because they don't want to see the truth.

You're grasping. Your insinuation was that the Palestinians have some deeply ingrained desire to wipe Israel off the map and will stop at nothing to achieve that, and the poll I linked to kicks that argument in the balls. This hasn't changed in the last 8 1/2 years. There are polls showing support going down as more people die and more settlements go up, but that's true on both sides. Here's a Gallup poll from 2012, which shows that Palestinians are overall more supportive of a two-state solution than Israeli Jews:

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Here it asks about peace and negotiation vs. nonviolent means of conflict resolution:

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And here it asks directly about how important peace actually is:

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The data suggests that Israeli Jews actually care less about peace than Palestinians do. Oops. :rolleyes:
 
and have a dead baby policy when Israel retaliates and a child may be killed, the baby is transported to wherever the media is so pictures can be shown to a media that up to now has shown no criticism of these tactics even though it's common knowledge among the more astute members of this media. Thereby assuring that these tactics work so Hamas does it over and over again. Showing a dead baby on the front cover of newspapers sells. Look at what those Joose have done, bombed a residential are and killed babies. How many know that the IDF drops leaflets, actually phone the residents to get the hell out because that place is about to be bombed. No other nation on earth does that, no other nation tries to keep the civilian casualties to a minimum as do the IDF.

It doesn't matter if Israel actually killed the baby or not, they still get blamed. The situation often doesn't add up, natural deaths in the vicinity of Israeli actions are often blamed on Israel.

Likewise, deaths due to Hamas actions are blamed on Israel. When a Hamas rocket falls in Gaza (and a lot of them do) the results are attributed to Israel.
 
Yeah, that must be it. It couldn't possibly be that they're correct, and that you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

Your poll is from almost a decade ago.

The very absence of data is indicative in this case--we have one poll that asked a question that got a result most people don't like to see. There have been plenty of polls since--why aren't they following up on that answer? Perhaps because they don't want to see the truth.

You're grasping. Your insinuation was that the Palestinians have some deeply ingrained desire to wipe Israel off the map and will stop at nothing to achieve that, and the poll I linked to kicks that argument in the balls. This hasn't changed in the last 8 1/2 years. There are polls showing support going down as more people die and more settlements go up, but that's true on both sides. Here's a Gallup poll from 2012, which shows that Palestinians are overall more supportive of a two-state solution than Israeli Jews:

Keyword: "overall". What those in the West Bank want has nothing to do with what those in Gaza want--and your claim is not true for Gaza.

Here it asks about peace and negotiation vs. nonviolent means of conflict resolution:

A pretty much useless question.

And here it asks directly about how important peace actually is:

Again, pretty much useless. They would like peace on their terms, that doesn't mean they'll accept a realistic peace.

BTW, the source for your charts: http://www.gallup.com/poll/161456/israelis-palestinians-pro-peace-process-not-hopeful.aspx
 
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