A sad casualty of DEI/Woke at Cambridge University

[Jimmy Higgins]

You know one thing... when I needed a surgical procedure, I trusted my PCP in the referral. And I've never asked a doctor or surgeon what their MCATs were.

How does what you wrote justify medical schools blatantly discriminating against white and Asian applicants?

Your claim didn't actually demonstrate that schools are "blatantly discriminating against white and Asian applicants", so not certain why I should debunk a baseless claim. However, I might note that over 20% of graduates of Medical School are Asian. That would be more than 3 times the percent of Asians living in the US. This would imply your accusation hinges on your complete misunderstanding of what the word "discrimination" means.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

8 pages on clear-cut and obvious case.
And I thought I had a chance in...... russia-ukraine thread.

You clearly haven't read the thread.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The AAMC tables I posted include GPA and MCAT scores. Not net worth. Where did you get "filthy rich" from?

Because that's what creates "perfect records". Talent has little to do with it. "Nice schools" in "nice neighborhoods" produce straight A students with glowing test scores, but no guarantee of actual capability.

Sure, sure. So apparently my low-income upbringing in a mixed race household in fairly crappy housing and a mediocre public school was just a fignment of my imagination. All of my records and success are because of some invisible blessing bestowed upon me by your say so? My father's accomplishments were really just handed to him due to his backwater Arkansas public schooling while literally picking cotton in the morning and weekends, living in a shack with a well and no electricity?

Talent and dedication go a long ways toward capability.


+++++++++++++++++++++

Opining that success is only achieved because of unearned privilege is just as insulting and dehumanizing as opining that a person only got a job because of DEI.

He didn't say that, he said perfect records are much easier in the calm confines of middle/upper class. Are you disputing that?

 

[thebeave]

You know one thing... when I needed a surgical procedure, I trusted my PCP in the referral. And I've never asked a doctor or surgeon what their MCATs were.

How does what you wrote justify medical schools blatantly discriminating against white and Asian applicants?

Your claim didn't actually demonstrate that schools are "blatantly discriminating against white and Asian applicants", so not certain why I should debunk a baseless claim. However, I might note that over 20% of graduates of Medical School are Asian. That would be more than 3 times the percent of Asians living in the US. This would imply your accusation hinges on your complete misunderstanding of what the word "discrimination" means.

You need to know the percentage of a particular race applying to med schools and compare that to their acceptance percentage to determine whether there is discrimination compared to other races.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

You know one thing... when I needed a surgical procedure, I trusted my PCP in the referral. And I've never asked a doctor or surgeon what their MCATs were.

How does what you wrote justify medical schools blatantly discriminating against white and Asian applicants?

Your claim didn't actually demonstrate that schools are "blatantly discriminating against white and Asian applicants", so not certain why I should debunk a baseless claim. However, I might note that over 20% of graduates of Medical School are Asian. That would be more than 3 times the percent of Asians living in the US. This would imply your accusation hinges on your complete misunderstanding of what the word "discrimination" means.

You need to know the percentage of a particular race applying to med schools and compare that to their acceptance percentage to determine whether there is discrimination compared to other races.

No, not really. The whole 3x on population infers enough that there isn't discrimination. But, I know that people are wanting to die on this molehill.

There is this. It is blog-ish so if someone finds sounder stats, please post them.

Group	MCAT	GPA	Acceptance Rate
Asian	514.3	3.85	44.5%
White	512.3	3.82	47.2%
Middle Eastern/North African	511.7	3.84	38.4%
Black/African American	507.2	3.65	35.9%
Hispanic/Latino	506.8	3.71	38.9%
American Indian/Alaska Native	505.2	3.64	40.7%

This would imply that demographics are being accepted at a rate that is generally proportional to their scores.

 

[thebeave]

You know one thing... when I needed a surgical procedure, I trusted my PCP in the referral. And I've never asked a doctor or surgeon what their MCATs were.

How does what you wrote justify medical schools blatantly discriminating against white and Asian applicants?

Your claim didn't actually demonstrate that schools are "blatantly discriminating against white and Asian applicants", so not certain why I should debunk a baseless claim. However, I might note that over 20% of graduates of Medical School are Asian. That would be more than 3 times the percent of Asians living in the US. This would imply your accusation hinges on your complete misunderstanding of what the word "discrimination" means.

You need to know the percentage of a particular race applying to med schools and compare that to their acceptance percentage to determine whether there is discrimination compared to other races.

No, not really. The whole 3x on population infers enough that there isn't discrimination. But, I know that people are wanting to die on this molehill.

There is this. It is blog-ish so if someone finds sounder stats, please post them.

Group	MCAT	GPA	Acceptance Rate
Asian	514.3	3.85	44.5%
White	512.3	3.82	47.2%
Middle Eastern/North African	511.7	3.84	38.4%
Black/African American	507.2	3.65	35.9%
Hispanic/Latino	506.8	3.71	38.9%
American Indian/Alaska Native	505.2	3.64	40.7%

This would imply that demographics are being accepted at a rate that is generally proportional to their scores.

That chart seems to imply that there is different acceptance criteria depending on your race. My comment was assuming the same acceptance criteria for everyone, regardless of race.

Despite the NBA being hugely disproportionally black, it would be possible to discriminate against blacks in the drafting process. The NBA largely selects players based on merit, but if they decided to implement a DEI based drafting process so as to make the teams more closely resemble the racial demographics of the US, they would necessarily exclude more qualified black players (i.e. discriminate against them) in favor of less talented Asians, Hispanics, whites, etc.

 

[laughing dog]

You know one thing... when I needed a surgical procedure, I trusted my PCP in the referral. And I've never asked a doctor or surgeon what their MCATs were.

How does what you wrote justify medical schools blatantly discriminating against white and Asian applicants?

Your claim didn't actually demonstrate that schools are "blatantly discriminating against white and Asian applicants", so not certain why I should debunk a baseless claim. However, I might note that over 20% of graduates of Medical School are Asian. That would be more than 3 times the percent of Asians living in the US. This would imply your accusation hinges on your complete misunderstanding of what the word "discrimination" means.

You need to know the percentage of a particular race applying to med schools and compare that to their acceptance percentage to determine whether there is discrimination compared to other races.

No, not really. The whole 3x on population infers enough that there isn't discrimination. But, I know that people are wanting to die on this molehill.

There is this. It is blog-ish so if someone finds sounder stats, please post them.

Group	MCAT	GPA	Acceptance Rate
Asian	514.3	3.85	44.5%
White	512.3	3.82	47.2%
Middle Eastern/North African	511.7	3.84	38.4%
Black/African American	507.2	3.65	35.9%
Hispanic/Latino	506.8	3.71	38.9%
American Indian/Alaska Native	505.2	3.64	40.7%

This would imply that demographics are being accepted at a rate that is generally proportional to their scores.

That chart seems to imply that there is different acceptance criteria depending on your race.

How does it imply that?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

You know one thing... when I needed a surgical procedure, I trusted my PCP in the referral. And I've never asked a doctor or surgeon what their MCATs were.

How does what you wrote justify medical schools blatantly discriminating against white and Asian applicants?

Your claim didn't actually demonstrate that schools are "blatantly discriminating against white and Asian applicants", so not certain why I should debunk a baseless claim. However, I might note that over 20% of graduates of Medical School are Asian. That would be more than 3 times the percent of Asians living in the US. This would imply your accusation hinges on your complete misunderstanding of what the word "discrimination" means.

You need to know the percentage of a particular race applying to med schools and compare that to their acceptance percentage to determine whether there is discrimination compared to other races.

No, not really. The whole 3x on population infers enough that there isn't discrimination. But, I know that people are wanting to die on this molehill.

There is this. It is blog-ish so if someone finds sounder stats, please post them.

Group	MCAT	GPA	Acceptance Rate
Asian	514.3	3.85	44.5%
White	512.3	3.82	47.2%
Middle Eastern/North African	511.7	3.84	38.4%
Black/African American	507.2	3.65	35.9%
Hispanic/Latino	506.8	3.71	38.9%
American Indian/Alaska Native	505.2	3.64	40.7%

This would imply that demographics are being accepted at a rate that is generally proportional to their scores.

That chart seems to imply that there is different acceptance criteria depending on your race. My comment was assuming the same acceptance criteria for everyone, regardless of race.

No it doesn't. You would need to not understand what an "average" is to claim that. I'm pretty certain you understand what the word "average" means.

If the acceptance rate was equivalent despite the difference in MCAT / GPA scores or the acceptance rate was random or reversed as shown relative to MCAT / GPA, that would provide evidence of your claim.

Instead, the stats above show that higher score/GPA means you have a better chance at acceptance.

 

[laughing dog]

You know one thing... when I needed a surgical procedure, I trusted my PCP in the referral. And I've never asked a doctor or surgeon what their MCATs were.

How does what you wrote justify medical schools blatantly discriminating against white and Asian applicants?

Your claim didn't actually demonstrate that schools are "blatantly discriminating against white and Asian applicants", so not certain why I should debunk a baseless claim. However, I might note that over 20% of graduates of Medical School are Asian. That would be more than 3 times the percent of Asians living in the US. This would imply your accusation hinges on your complete misunderstanding of what the word "discrimination" means.

You need to know the percentage of a particular race applying to med schools and compare that to their acceptance percentage to determine whether there is discrimination compared to other races.

No, not really. The whole 3x on population infers enough that there isn't discrimination. But, I know that people are wanting to die on this molehill.

There is this. It is blog-ish so if someone finds sounder stats, please post them.

Group	MCAT	GPA	Acceptance Rate
Asian	514.3	3.85	44.5%
White	512.3	3.82	47.2%
Middle Eastern/North African	511.7	3.84	38.4%
Black/African American	507.2	3.65	35.9%
Hispanic/Latino	506.8	3.71	38.9%
American Indian/Alaska Native	505.2	3.64	40.7%

This would imply that demographics are being accepted at a rate that is generally proportional to their scores.

That chart seems to imply that there is different acceptance criteria depending on your race. My comment was assuming the same acceptance criteria for everyone, regardless of race.

No it doesn't. You would need to not understand what an "average" is to claim that. I'm pretty certain you understand what the word "average" means.

If the acceptance rate was equivalent despite the difference in MCAT / GPA scores or the acceptance rate was random or reversed as shown relative to MCAT / GPA, that would provide evidence of your claim.

Instead, the stats above show that higher score/GPA means you have a better chance at acceptance.

JH, except that American Indian/Alaska Native have a higher acceptance than Hispanic/Latino or Black/African American. And White has the highest acceptance rate even though they are lower than Asian. Oops!!!!!

 

[Bomb#20]

The innumeracy, it burns.

 

[Derec]

Remember that the same people who think no one should be admitted to Harvard with less than a 1200 SAT score,

1200 is not that high, just 72nd percentile.
But whatever the appropriate SAT cutoff for serious consideration at Harvard, I strongly believe that this cutoff should be the same regardless of race or ethnicity. The Left disagrees.

also think that a pro wrestling magnate with zero experience in education is fully qualified to run the US Department of Education, because a daytime television personality and real estate scammer is the one who hired her.

Newsflash: one can reject bad ideas from both left and right. And I think it is the prevalence of bad ideas from the left that made Trump's ascendancy - and reelection - possible in the first place.

And it's not like the Left does not have unqualified and inexperienced people they have been pushing. Take Graham Platner, a college dropout who is larping as an oyster farmer, and who was considered a rising star on the DSA wing of the Democratic Party until fairly recently.

 

[Derec]

Coming from the author of this irrelevant conjecture of "If Cambridge deliberately excluded white men from consideration for hiring, then it's a DEI (or "EDI" as it's called across the pond) hire by definition." that is monumentally ironic

It's not irrelevant. It's clarifying to Politesse when something is considered a "DEI hire". Simply hiring a woman or minority is not necessarily a DEI hire. Discriminating in order to effect that hire is.

For example, Biden excluding everybody who is not a black women from consideration for SCOTUS and running mate was DEI by definition. And it helped give us Trump 2.0.

 

[Derec]

What was/is it called when candidates were specifically excluded if they were not white and make and preferably ‘Christian?’

Why does the Left think that discriminating against white "makes"[sic] today makes up for discrimination in the past rather than adding new injustices to old?

Why can’t you answer a question?

That question wasn't rhetorical?
What would you call it yourself? And why do you think doing the same, just against different groups, is somehow progressive and laudable?

 

[Derec]

Standards only matter if they are relevant.

Why do you not think that academic performance is a relevant standard for med school admissions?
I think it is very relevant. It is not the only relevant thing, of course, but is is very relevant. Unlike race and ethnicity.

For a long time, ...

We are talking about here and now. You keep harping about the past, as if that somehow justifies discrimination today.
Medical schools are keenly invested in admitting only well qualified students who will complete their studies and become physicians.

I am unaware that medical students admit students whose GOAs or MCAT scores or combination fail to meet that threshold.

Data show that black, Hispanic and American Indian applicants are admitted with significantly lower scores and grades than white and Asian ones. That should not be allowed. Same standards should apply to everybody.

If you look at the data, blacks have a 505.7 and standard deviation of 6.6 [yes, SD is appropriate here since we are just looking at population distributions and not doing hypothesis testing]. That means that ~16% of all black matriculants have the MCAT score of 499 or less. Asian students the mean is 514.3 and the SD is 6.0. That means that only ~2.5% have an MCAT of 502 or less. That is a huge difference in academic preparedness.

I am unaware that there are any imperial studies which have established that those medical students admitted with the highest scores and best GPAs end up making the best physicians.

Imperial studies? I am unaware of any studies that show that certain skin color or ancestors who spoke Spanish make the best physicians either.

But to get back to "imperial studies", MCAT scores do predict medical school performance.

 

[Derec]

The AAMC tables I posted include GPA and MCAT scores. Not net worth. Where did you get "filthy rich" from?

Because that's what creates "perfect records". Talent has little to do with it. "Nice schools" in "nice neighborhoods" produce straight A students with glowing test scores, but no guarantee of actual capability.

Not necessarily. MCAT is the great equalizer, since everybody, white and black, rich and poor, go to the same testing centers and take the same test.
Yes, the rich can afford more resources, tutoring etc. but there are many affordable materials that allow anybody to prepare for the test. Tests like SAT and MCAT allow talented but poor students to stand out. Family affluence helps with everything in life, sure, but it helps less with MCAT than with securing extracurriculars (where connections matter a lot!) or crafting the perfect personal statement and secondary essays, where a rich family can just hire a writer.

Also, we have to differentiate between family wealth/status helping you with specific metrics for admissions and genuinely preparing you academically throughout your life. If you grow up in a household where you are nurtured intellectually your whole life - where you are read to as a child, where there are books in the house, where parents cared about your education, then you will be better prepared than somebody whose parents did none of those things. And of course, there is also the genetic component. The student should not be penalized for these advantages either because these things genuinely better prepare him or her.

 

[Toni]

The AAMC tables I posted include GPA and MCAT scores. Not net worth. Where did you get "filthy rich" from?

Because that's what creates "perfect records". Talent has little to do with it. "Nice schools" in "nice neighborhoods" produce straight A students with glowing test scores, but no guarantee of actual capability.

Sure, sure. So apparently my low-income upbringing in a mixed race household in fairly crappy housing and a mediocre public school was just a fignment of my imagination. All of my records and success are because of some invisible blessing bestowed upon me by your say so? My father's accomplishments were really just handed to him due to his backwater Arkansas public schooling while literally picking cotton in the morning and weekends, living in a shack with a well and no electricity?

Talent and dedication go a long ways toward capability.


+++++++++++++++++++++

Opining that success is only achieved because of unearned privilege is just as insulting and dehumanizing as opining that a person only got a job because of DEI.

He didn't say that, he said perfect records are much easier in the calm confines of middle/upper class. Are you disputing that?

Well, for Loren, it’s all about what family upbringing you have. Good families care enough to ensure that you are in the very best school districts and all the best extracurricular and all of the cram courses and expensive tutors you might need.

Unlike those black parents who don’t care enough not to raise their kids in the projects.

 

[Toni]

What was/is it called when candidates were specifically excluded if they were not white and make and preferably ‘Christian?’

Why does the Left think that discriminating against white "makes"[sic] today makes up for discrimination in the past rather than adding new injustices to old?

Why can’t you answer a question?

That question wasn't rhetorical?
What would you call it yourself? And why do you think doing the same, just against different groups, is somehow progressive and laudable?

The question was not rhetorical.

 

[Toni]

Standards only matter if they are relevant.

Why do you not think that academic performance is a relevant standard for med school admissions?
I think it is very relevant. It is not the only relevant thing, of course, but is is very relevant. Unlike race and ethnicity.

For a long time, ...

We are talking about here and now. You keep harping about the past, as if that somehow justifies discrimination today.
Medical schools are keenly invested in admitting only well qualified students who will complete their studies and become physicians.

I am unaware that medical students admit students whose GOAs or MCAT scores or combination fail to meet that threshold.

Data show that black, Hispanic and American Indian applicants are admitted with significantly lower scores and grades than white and Asian ones. That should not be allowed. Same standards should apply to everybody.

If you look at the data, blacks have a 505.7 and standard deviation of 6.6 [yes, SD is appropriate here since we are just looking at population distributions and not doing hypothesis testing]. That means that ~16% of all black matriculants have the MCAT score of 499 or less. Asian students the mean is 514.3 and the SD is 6.0. That means that only ~2.5% have an MCAT of 502 or less. That is a huge difference in academic preparedness.

I am unaware that there are any imperial studies which have established that those medical students admitted with the highest scores and best GPAs end up making the best physicians.

Imperial studies? I am unaware of any studies that show that certain skin color or ancestors who spoke Spanish make the best physicians either.

But to get back to "imperial studies", MCAT scores do predict medical school performance.

You aren’t demonstrating different standards.

You are looking at averages across an entire class.

You are further assuming that GPA and MCAT scores are the only criteria that matter.

You are assuming that higher GPAand higher MCAT scores = better doctors.

You said yourself: medical schools are highly invested in admitting students who will be successful at completing their studies and becoming physicians.

Don’t you think that they know what they are doing?

 

[TSwizzle]

Unlike those black parents who don’t care enough not to raise their kids in the projects.

Parents, plural? lol. Few and far between these days.

 

[Toni]

Unlike those black parents who don’t care enough not to raise their kids in the projects.

Parents, plural? lol. Few and far between these days.

Wow.