Israeli elections: with left-of-center Zionist Union pulling ahead in polls, is a new chance at Palestinian peace coming?

[Warpoet]

Keyword: "overall". What those in the West Bank want has nothing to do with what those in Gaza want--and your claim is not true for Gaza.

You said "Palestinians," not "Gazans," so stop the goalpost shifting. It's not too fucking hard to figure out why Gazans would be less accepting of it than other Palestinians, but they're still almost dead even with Israeli Jews, thus totally undermining your position.

A pretty much useless question.

No, it isn't. It directly contradicts the moronic archetype of violent Palestinian zealots that you are trying to construct.

Again, pretty much useless. They would like peace on their terms, that doesn't mean they'll accept a realistic peace.

BTW, the source for your charts: http://www.gallup.com/poll/161456/israelis-palestinians-pro-peace-process-not-hopeful.aspx

I already posted the link. Read more carefully. And no, it's not a useless question at all. It further discredits your idiotic mischaracterizations of the Palestinians.

And remember, it was your claim that the Palestinians don't want peace. And you've done fuck all to back it up except link to a biased agenda source with no relevance. I've been the one digging up credible data, and so far it all supports my position and contradicts yours. So this is the part where you either get off your ass and start finding some of your own, or stop talking.

 

[arkirk]

You said "Palestinians," not "Gazans," so stop the goalpost shifting. It's not too fucking hard to figure out why Gazans would be less accepting of it than other Palestinians, but they're still almost dead even with Israeli Jews, thus totally undermining your position.

A pretty much useless question.

No, it isn't. It directly contradicts the moronic archetype of violent Palestinian zealots that you are trying to construct.

Again, pretty much useless. They would like peace on their terms, that doesn't mean they'll accept a realistic peace.

BTW, the source for your charts: http://www.gallup.com/poll/161456/israelis-palestinians-pro-peace-process-not-hopeful.aspx

I already posted the link. Read more carefully. And no, it's not a useless question at all. It further discredits your idiotic mischaracterizations of the Palestinians.

And remember, it was your claim that the Palestinians don't want peace. And you've done fuck all to back it up except link to a biased agenda source with no relevance. I've been the one digging up credible data, and so far it all supports my position and contradicts yours. So this is the part where you either get off your ass and start finding some of your own, or stop talking.

Loren is always telling us what people want. It is just SOP for him because he knows we can't go to Gaza and find out for ourselves what they want. We all know that anybody with one whit of sanity doesn't want to live in a pile or rubble.

 

[untermensche]

If you want to call that a free election.

Nobody gets 90% in a free and open election. It doesn't happen.

And it isn't the fault of Hamas that Israel immediately nullified the election and basically punished the Palestinians for voting the wrong way.

The fact remains, in the whole region Hamas has the only Arab democratically elected leaders. At least the one's Israel hasn't killed.

Are you aware what Hamas stands for?...

Hamas is exactly the kind of organization one would expect to arise after decades of brutal oppression.

It is an Israeli creation. They created it with inhumanity, state violence, and theft.

 

[arkirk]

Are you aware what Hamas stands for?...

Hamas is exactly the kind of organization one would expect to arise after decades of brutal oppression.

It is an Israeli creation. They created it with inhumanity, state violence, and theft.

All this election proved was that the Israelis have been brainwashed to the point they are so racist that peace will have to be imposed from the outside. It is my guess that this will only happen after a lot more Palestinian suffering. Netanyahu has thrown down the gauntlet and the Palestinians do not have the might to challenge him. We seem to be forgetting that Israel is more of an outlier nation with every passing month. Israel is a creature of outside financing. All the differences they have with their Arab neighbors in terms of advanced technology are essentially gifts from mostly the U.S. Their rampages in occupied Palestine are an affront to peace loving people all over the world. When the goodies stop flowing to Israel, this dog and pony show will crumble much as it did in South Africa. They are on a course similar to that of South Africa and have about as many friends as it did before its racist regime could no longer expect outsiders to prop it up. I think we shall see increasing results from the BDS movement as time passes. All of our politicians are cowards and they really have no way out because they belong to Adelson.

 

[angelo]

Comparing Israel to the Apartheid South African regime shows the ignorance and bigotry of the claimant. Arabs occupy 12-13 seats in the Israeli parliament, [under apartheid blacks couldn't even vote] There are no whites only buses, or areas where Arabs can't go, it has freedom of religion, gender, there are many Arabs who are employed in Israeli run factories and so on. Security is needed because of the continuing terrorist attacks by Palestinian suicide bombers.

 

[arkirk]

Murder is more important than a seat on a bus............

Comparing Israel to the Apartheid South African regime shows the ignorance and bigotry of the claimant. Arabs occupy 12-13 seats in the Israeli parliament, [under apartheid blacks couldn't even vote] There are no whites only buses, or areas where Arabs can't go, it has freedom of religion, gender, there are many Arabs who are employed in Israeli run factories and so on. Security is needed because of the continuing terrorist attacks by Palestinian suicide bombers.

I really think you should learn to use our language better. I didn't make any claims...just predictions. I think Jimmy Carter had it right and still has it right. You can go on about 12-13 seats in the Knesset doomed to just sit and listen. I think the most terrible thing that happened in Palestine was not some Arab terrorist act, but the destruction of almost all infrastructure in Gaza. That was a crime against humanity. I think this shit is going to have to stop or the bigger powers in the world will have to make it stop. Netanyahu and his crew should be on trial for war crimes...in the Hague, not in Palestine.

 

[Arctish]

Comparing Israel to the Apartheid South African regime shows the ignorance and bigotry of the claimant. Arabs occupy 12-13 seats in the Israeli parliament, [under apartheid blacks couldn't even vote] There are no whites only buses, or areas where Arabs can't go, it has freedom of religion, gender, there are many Arabs who are employed in Israeli run factories and so on. Security is needed because of the continuing terrorist attacks by Palestinian suicide bombers.

Barak: make peace with Palestinians or face apartheid

Ehud Barak, Israel's defence minister, last night delivered an unusually blunt *warning to his country that a failure to make peace with the Palestinians would leave either a state with no Jewish *majority or an "apartheid" regime.

His stark language and the South African analogy might have been unthinkable for a senior Israeli figure only a few years ago and is a rare admission of the gravity of the deadlocked peace process.

There have been no formal negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians in more than a year, but Barak was speaking at a rare joint event with the Palestinian prime minister, Salam Fayyad, as part of an annual national security conference in the Israeli city of Herzliya. The pair shook hands and both were warmly applauded.

Barak, a former general and Israel's most decorated soldier, sought to appeal to Israelis on both right and left by saying a peace agreement with the Palestinians was the only way to secure Israel's future as a "Zionist, Jewish, democratic state".

"As long as in this territory west of the Jordan river there is only one political entity called Israel it is going to be either non-Jewish, or non-democratic," Barak said. "If this bloc of millions of *Palestinians cannot vote, that will be an apartheid state."

Former Mossad Chief Meir Dagan has also used the term apartheid to describe where Israel is going with its policies in Palestine:

Tens of thousands of Israelis attended a rally in Tel Aviv’s Rabin Square on Saturday evening to call for the prime minster, Binyamin Netanyahu, to be replaced in elections later this month.

Organised under the banner, “Israel wants change” and dubbed an “anti-Netanyahu” event, the rally was headlined by former Mossad chief Meir Dagan, who told the crowd Israel is facing the worst leadership crisis in its history.

“We have a leader who fights only one campaign — the campaign for his own political survival … I am not a politician and not a public figure, and I came here this evening without personal aspirations, not looking for a position and without a grudge or bitterness,” he said. “To those who say we don’t have any alternative, as somebody who worked directly with three prime ministers: there is a better alternative,” Dagan said. He and former Israeli general Amiram Levine, who also addressed the rally, both used the word “apartheid” to describe the direction Israel is headed, 972 Magazine reported.

I think it's a safe bet the former Prime Minister of Israel (who also happens to be the most highly decorated soldier in Israel's history and served as Defense Minister in Netanyahu's government) and the former head of Mossad are well informed regarding the situation in Palestine and aren't bigoted against Jews.

 

[untermensche]

Comparing Israel to the Apartheid South African regime shows the ignorance and bigotry of the claimant. Arabs occupy 12-13 seats in the Israeli parliament, [under apartheid blacks couldn't even vote] There are no whites only buses, or areas where Arabs can't go, it has freedom of religion, gender, there are many Arabs who are employed in Israeli run factories and so on. Security is needed because of the continuing terrorist attacks by Palestinian suicide bombers.

When you talk about Arabs voting you are ignoring millions of Palestinians who have no vote.

Gaza and the West Bank are basically Israeli prisons where trade with the world is forbidden. Where the economy is crushed and held in a state of continual underdevelopment.

South Africa needed many of the blacks because their economy included them.

Israel deliberately excludes millions of Palestinians from it's economy.

And the so-called terrorist attacks are resistance to decades of brutal occupation and oppression.

Israel wants to maintain it's oppression and continue to steal land. They have chosen expansion over peace and security. They have a choice. Palestinians under the Israeli boot have little. It is either submit to endless oppression or resist it. Israel offers no other alternative.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Comparing Israel to the Apartheid South African regime shows the ignorance and bigotry of the claimant. Arabs occupy 12-13 seats in the Israeli parliament, [under apartheid blacks couldn't even vote] There are no whites only buses, or areas where Arabs can't go, it has freedom of religion, gender, there are many Arabs who are employed in Israeli run factories and so on. Security is needed because of the continuing terrorist attacks by Palestinian suicide bombers.

I really think you should learn to use our language better. I didn't make any claims...just predictions. I think Jimmy Carter had it right and still has it right. You can go on about 12-13 seats in the Knesset doomed to just sit and listen. I think the most terrible thing that happened in Palestine was not some Arab terrorist act, but the destruction of almost all infrastructure in Gaza. That was a crime against humanity. I think this shit is going to have to stop or the bigger powers in the world will have to make it stop. Netanyahu and his crew should be on trial for war crimes...in the Hague, not in Palestine.

Jimmy Carter showed he doesn't know what's going on. Remember, a few years back he visited with Hamas and came away saying good things--which were promptly rebutted by Hamas?

- - - Updated - - -

When you talk about Arabs voting you are ignoring millions of Palestinians who have no vote.

They would vote in Palestinian elections--oops, the Palestinians won't hold elections. That's not Israel's fault.

Gaza and the West Bank are basically Israeli prisons where trade with the world is forbidden.

Trade is permitted, it just has to go through Israel.

Where the economy is crushed and held in a state of continual underdevelopment.

Exactly has Hamas wants it.

Israel deliberately excludes millions of Palestinians from it's economy.

Only when it became too dangerous to employ them.

 

[untermensche]

Only when it became too dangerous to employ them.

People are dangerous when you oppress them.

You can't oppress for decades and then cry about how dangerous you have made your victims.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Only when it became too dangerous to employ them.

People are dangerous when you oppress them.

You can't oppress for decades and then cry about how dangerous you have made your victims.

Large scale terrorism is not the result of oppression.

Large scale terrorism is the result of somebody with a lot of money stirring up the pot. In a few cases it's funded by the export of a valuable product, otherwise it's some meddler causing it. It used to be Russia, these days it's places like Iran, Syria and Qatar.

 

[untermensche]

People are dangerous when you oppress them.

You can't oppress for decades and then cry about how dangerous you have made your victims.

Large scale terrorism is not the result of oppression.

Large scale terrorism is the result of somebody with a lot of money stirring up the pot. In a few cases it's funded by the export of a valuable product, otherwise it's some meddler causing it. It used to be Russia, these days it's places like Iran, Syria and Qatar.

Nice dodge. You immediately retreat to some fantasy world where Israel faces large scale terrorism.

It faces fourth rate resistance to oppression and deserves more than it gets.

Again, you oppress millions for decades and there is a cost.

Israel getting what it deserves for its oppression is not terrorism. The terrorism is the prison Israel has created for the Palestinians to live in as it steals land at will.

 

[arkirk]

Only when it became too dangerous to employ them.

People are dangerous when you oppress them.

You can't oppress for decades and then cry about how dangerous you have made your victims.

The thing I find so sorry here is that Loren is attempting to reify his idea of what Palestinians are like in order to be able to close his eyes to the inhuman treatment the Israelis have visited upon them. If he can convince himself that they all are evil and devoted to the destruction of Israelis, then whatever happens to them need not be a concern of his. His position is anti-humanist. Thus he equates being Palestinian with not being eligible for any human consideration. This is the method and perhaps the ailment of the warmonger. He just can't fathom the idea that some people are human and should have human rights. He tells us how the Palestinians hate the Israelis. He can't prove that because it is not even true overall. It can be true in cases where Israeli soldiers did harm to family members, but there are 1.5 million of them in Gaza who don't have safe water to drink. Who did this? The Israelis.

If he can convince himself and others that a Palestinian child is the equivalent of a baby rattlesnake, then he can ignore killing women and children and denying them access to the things children need in order to mature into healthy adults. There is hate in Palestine and the vast majority of hateful acts are being performed by the Israelis. So when you think of hate, can you envision enough hatred to unleash white phosphorus on children in a U.N. school? I would call that a pretty high level of hate burning in some Israeli breast.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Large scale terrorism is not the result of oppression.

Large scale terrorism is the result of somebody with a lot of money stirring up the pot. In a few cases it's funded by the export of a valuable product, otherwise it's some meddler causing it. It used to be Russia, these days it's places like Iran, Syria and Qatar.

Nice dodge. You immediately retreat to some fantasy world where Israel faces large scale terrorism.

It faces fourth rate resistance to oppression and deserves more than it gets.

Again, you oppress millions for decades and there is a cost.

Israel getting what it deserves for its oppression is not terrorism. The terrorism is the prison Israel has created for the Palestinians to live in as it steals land at will.

What Israel faces is large scale.

The largest terrorism we have seen without outside support is Oklahoma City. Note that it was a one-shot thing, not a terrorist movement.

 

[untermensche]

Nice dodge. You immediately retreat to some fantasy world where Israel faces large scale terrorism.

It faces fourth rate resistance to oppression and deserves more than it gets.

Again, you oppress millions for decades and there is a cost.

Israel getting what it deserves for its oppression is not terrorism. The terrorism is the prison Israel has created for the Palestinians to live in as it steals land at will.

What Israel faces is large scale.

The largest terrorism we have seen without outside support is Oklahoma City. Note that it was a one-shot thing, not a terrorist movement.

It is a RESISTANCE movement called a terrorist movement by terrorists.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

What Israel faces is large scale.

The largest terrorism we have seen without outside support is Oklahoma City. Note that it was a one-shot thing, not a terrorist movement.

It is a RESISTANCE movement called a terrorist movement by terrorists.

Your inability to recognize terrorism doesn't make it go away. Furthermore, you're evading the point that it's due to outside money. The truly oppressed don't engage in terrorism, they don't have the ability to do so.

 

[Arctish]

The truly oppressed don't engage in terrorism, they don't have the ability to do so.

Tell that to the survivors of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. I'm sure they will all agree they weren't truly oppressed until they ran out of ammunition.

 

[Axulus]

The truly oppressed don't engage in terrorism, they don't have the ability to do so.

Tell that to the survivors of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. I'm sure they will all agree they weren't truly oppressed until they ran out of ammunition.

Or Nat Turner's slave rebellion - who would've guessed that they weren't "truly" oppressed?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The truly oppressed don't engage in terrorism, they don't have the ability to do so.

Tell that to the survivors of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. I'm sure they will all agree they weren't truly oppressed until they ran out of ammunition.

You still can't tell the difference between terrorism (aimed at civilians) and insurgents (aimed at the government.)

 

[Arctish]

Tell that to the survivors of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. I'm sure they will all agree they weren't truly oppressed until they ran out of ammunition.

You still can't tell the difference between terrorism (aimed at civilians) and insurgents (aimed at the government.)

I am challenging your claim that "The truly oppressed don't engage in terrorism, they don't have the ability to do so." I believe the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto thoroughly disprove that assertion, and I believe if you apply one single standard to determining who is oppressed you will eventually come to the same conclusion. It's not something you can determine by counting the number of Molotov cocktails and grenades they have on hand. It is determined by the treatment they receive at the hands of those who wield power over them.