Israeli elections: with left-of-center Zionist Union pulling ahead in polls, is a new chance at Palestinian peace coming?

[angelo]

Could it be that you're looking at the picture with anti Israeli blinkers on?

 

[Arctish]

Could it be that you're looking at the picture with anti Israeli blinkers on?

I don't know. I don't think so.

If I did have anti-Israel blinkers on and I took them off, in what way would the view change? Would I see a need to kill those children playing soccer?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Could it be that you're looking at the picture with anti Israeli blinkers on?

I don't know. I don't think so.

If I did have anti-Israel blinkers on and I took them off, in what way would the view change? Would I see a need to kill those children playing soccer?

You would realize that Hamas set them up to be killed.

 

[Arctish]

I don't know. I don't think so.

If I did have anti-Israel blinkers on and I took them off, in what way would the view change? Would I see a need to kill those children playing soccer?

You would realize that Hamas set them up to be killed.

What evidence would I see that supports that claim? Or would removing the blinkers cause me to spontaneously undergo a religious conversion and start believing in things for which there is no evidence?

BTW, even if Hamas "set them up to be killed" (did Hamas force them to go have fun playing soccer on the beach that day ), that doesn't exonerate the IDF for killing them. The children were not hidden in a bunker. Their activities were not obscured by buildings. They were clearly children playing out in the open on a nice day. Nothing that happened before, during, or after their deaths indicates any need for them to die.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You would realize that Hamas set them up to be killed.

What evidence would I see that supports that claim? Or would removing the blinkers cause me to spontaneously undergo a religious conversion and start believing in things for which there is no evidence?

BTW, even if Hamas "set them up to be killed" (did Hamas force them to go have fun playing soccer on the beach that day ), that doesn't exonerate the IDF for killing them. The children were not hidden in a bunker. Their activities were not obscured by buildings. They were clearly children playing out in the open on a nice day. Nothing that happened before, during, or after their deaths indicates any need for them to die.

The reality is that in war you don't always have the luxury of avoiding hitting human shields.

You have no idea what Israel was actually shooting at so you have no idea if there was a reason or not.

 

[Arctish]

What evidence would I see that supports that claim? Or would removing the blinkers cause me to spontaneously undergo a religious conversion and start believing in things for which there is no evidence?

BTW, even if Hamas "set them up to be killed" (did Hamas force them to go have fun playing soccer on the beach that day ), that doesn't exonerate the IDF for killing them. The children were not hidden in a bunker. Their activities were not obscured by buildings. They were clearly children playing out in the open on a nice day. Nothing that happened before, during, or after their deaths indicates any need for them to die.

The reality is that in war you don't always have the luxury of avoiding hitting human shields.

You have no idea what Israel was actually shooting at so you have no idea if there was a reason or not.

So I will be able to ignore evidence everyone can see and imagine evidence only I can see, up to and including evidence of a need to kill children at play? That sounds like faith. In fact, it sounds like zealotry.

 

[laughing dog]

What evidence would I see that supports that claim? Or would removing the blinkers cause me to spontaneously undergo a religious conversion and start believing in things for which there is no evidence?

BTW, even if Hamas "set them up to be killed" (did Hamas force them to go have fun playing soccer on the beach that day ), that doesn't exonerate the IDF for killing them. The children were not hidden in a bunker. Their activities were not obscured by buildings. They were clearly children playing out in the open on a nice day. Nothing that happened before, during, or after their deaths indicates any need for them to die.

The reality is that in war you don't always have the luxury of avoiding hitting human shields.

You have no idea what Israel was actually shooting at so you have no idea if there was a reason or not.

According to you, the IDF is extremely accurate. And you have argued in the past that male Palestinian children are potential terrorists and therefore legitimate targets. But even ignoring all of that, since you have no idea what the IDF was shooting, you can have no idea if there was not a reason or if there was.

 

[laughing dog]

Could it be that you're looking at the picture with anti Israeli blinkers on?

I would say yes , as "anti Israeli blinkers" = "eyes wide open".

 

[arkirk]

Could it be that you're looking at the picture with anti Israeli blinkers on?

No! I think we see what they're doing and object to the business as usual attitude people have toward gross human rights violations against unarmed people. I don't think any of us approve of the Muslim way of life, or Sharia law, or beheading people...any people. I don't think any of us can avoid hearing about every incident the Palestinian cause through violence. The same is not true with the Israelis. I think of them Israelis and Palestinians as essentially two backward societies and one is only technologically superior to another and better outfitted by outside sponsors...not morally superior.

There really is no reason for an atheist to support either side in this conflict and yet, there is a reason to want to see it end. It will not ever end unless both sides come to a reasonable, liveable settlement of the dispute. I am opposed to what Netanyahu is doing because it is a major obstacle to working out a peace. The Arabs in this matter are flat on their backs and even have trouble getting safe drinking water. It is high time for this crazy situation to come to an end. We all know that...I think we do.

 

[angelo]

You would realize that Hamas set them up to be killed.

What evidence would I see that supports that claim? Or would removing the blinkers cause me to spontaneously undergo a religious conversion and start believing in things for which there is no evidence?

BTW, even if Hamas "set them up to be killed" (did Hamas force them to go have fun playing soccer on the beach that day ), that doesn't exonerate the IDF for killing them. The children were not hidden in a bunker. Their activities were not obscured by buildings. They were clearly children playing out in the open on a nice day. Nothing that happened before, during, or after their deaths indicates any need for them to die.

There is not one shred of evidence for your claims that Israelis would deliberately kill innocent children. You are aware that Hamas loves to use dead Palestinian children in their propaganda war which I'm afraid they're winning in so much as to even transport their bodies to other locations where they know a complicit media awaits?

 

[Arctish]

What evidence would I see that supports that claim? Or would removing the blinkers cause me to spontaneously undergo a religious conversion and start believing in things for which there is no evidence?

BTW, even if Hamas "set them up to be killed" (did Hamas force them to go have fun playing soccer on the beach that day ), that doesn't exonerate the IDF for killing them. The children were not hidden in a bunker. Their activities were not obscured by buildings. They were clearly children playing out in the open on a nice day. Nothing that happened before, during, or after their deaths indicates any need for them to die.

There is not one shred of evidence for your claims that Israelis would deliberately kill innocent children.

The artillery shells did not just fall from the clouds like hailstones. They came from an IDF emplacement and were aimed at the part of the beach where those kids were playing. The children were in the open and their soccer game was plainly visible to multiple observers. The artillery fire stopped as soon as the kids were down. The children died. So there is evidence of deliberate actions resulting in the death of innocent children. That's not *quite* the same thing as deliberately killing innocent children but it's close enough to call it murder.

Anyway, I wasn't talking about deliberate actions. What I was objecting to was the needless death of children. Loren doesn't mind so long as the kids are Palestinians, or at least not Jews. I mind very much, and I don't give a crap about their ethnicity, nationality, or religious affiliations.

Suppose you learned there was a reason for firing artillery shells at those kids that had to do with Israel's security, but their deaths weren't actually necessary. How would you feel about that? Would you support the action or would you object?

You are aware that Hamas loves to use dead Palestinian children in their propaganda war which I'm afraid they're winning in so much as to even transport their bodies to other locations where they know a complicit media awaits?

Are you aware that this line of argument doesn't really address the issue? The bad behavior of Hamas does not make it okay to ignore the deaths of those kids, or to brush aside concerns that they were needlessly killed in yet another violation of human rights in the Middle East.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The reality is that in war you don't always have the luxury of avoiding hitting human shields.

You have no idea what Israel was actually shooting at so you have no idea if there was a reason or not.

According to you, the IDF is extremely accurate. And you have argued in the past that male Palestinian children are potential terrorists and therefore legitimate targets. But even ignoring all of that, since you have no idea what the IDF was shooting, you can have no idea if there was not a reason or if there was.

Quit making up what I supposedly said.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

There is not one shred of evidence for your claims that Israelis would deliberately kill innocent children.

The artillery shells did not just fall from the clouds like hailstones. They came from an IDF emplacement and were aimed at the part of the beach where those kids were playing. The children were in the open and their soccer game was plainly visible to multiple observers. The artillery fire stopped as soon as the kids were down. The children died. So there is evidence of deliberate actions resulting in the death of innocent children. That's not *quite* the same thing as deliberately killing innocent children but it's close enough to call it murder.

You forget there was a ship there.

You are aware that Hamas loves to use dead Palestinian children in their propaganda war which I'm afraid they're winning in so much as to even transport their bodies to other locations where they know a complicit media awaits?

Are you aware that this line of argument doesn't really address the issue? The bad behavior of Hamas does not make it okay to ignore the deaths of those kids, or to brush aside concerns that they were needlessly killed in yet another violation of human rights in the Middle East.

And you're falling for them hook, line and sinker.

 

[laughing dog]

According to you, the IDF is extremely accurate. And you have argued in the past that male Palestinian children are potential terrorists and therefore legitimate targets. But even ignoring all of that, since you have no idea what the IDF was shooting, you can have no idea if there was not a reason or if there was.

Quit making up what I supposedly said.

What do you mistakenly believe I made up?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Quit making up what I supposedly said.

What do you mistakenly believe I made up?

Your assertion that the children are potential terrorists and thus valid targets.

 

[laughing dog]

What do you mistakenly believe I made up?

Your assertion that the children are potential terrorists and thus valid targets.

You mean the assertion that you have argued in the past the male Palestinian children are potential terrorists and are therefore legitimate targets?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Your assertion that the children are potential terrorists and thus valid targets.

You mean the assertion that you have argued in the past the male Palestinian children are potential terrorists and are therefore legitimate targets?

I have argued that when they are engaging in an act that would be treated as a threat by an adult then unfortunately they must likewise be considered a threat despite being young.

What you are saying is at best taking this seriously out of context.

 

[bleubird]

Israel is doomed to for ever war.

 

[bilby]

Israel is doomed to for ever war.

I used to think that about Northern Ireland - that the conflict could never end, because both sides were too heavily invested in their hatred for each other.

But that no longer seems to be the case.

It will take some better statesmen on all sides than the current sorry lot though.

Perhaps Mo Mowlam could have sorted them out if she was still with us.

 

[angelo]

Are you aware that this line of argument doesn't really address the issue? The bad behavior of Hamas does not make it okay to ignore the deaths of those kids, or to brush aside concerns that they were needlessly killed in yet another violation of human rights in the Middle East.

How do you know those kids weren't killed by Hamas themselves, by a misfiring rocket which is quite often. Or a misfired canon or whatever killed them. I'm saying that no army in the world seeks to minimize civilian casualties like Israel does, even to the point of placing their own soldiers in harms way by doing so.