• Welcome to the Internet Infidels Discussion Board.

Surprise, surprise! "Mattress Girl" was (very likely) not raped after all.

He also makes specious points that merit the derision and dismissal they receive, but he keeps repeating them because they support his usual theme of lying sluts who falsely accuse men of wrongdoing.
Well it's not my fault there are so many cases of lying sluts making false allegations.
For example, his claim Sulkowicz enjoys anal sex is based on a quote-mine of an idiom on a par with "blow me down" or "gag me with a spoon", or "fuck me running".
No. "Fuck me in the butt" is not comparable to these other things as it is a a realistic reference to sexual practice many people engage in (unlike spoon-gaging or fucking while running which are humorous and hyperbolic). They were also engaged in a sexual relationship at the time and she followed up with a reference to him missing her "lopsided" butt.

Derec is pretending, or at the very least assuming, it was a genuine indication Sulkowicz wanted anal sex the night Nungesser flipped her over and penetrated her anus.
It sure reads like it to me. You, on the other hand, take everything a woman says about rape at face value.

Derec, please post the date and context in which Sulkowicz's use of the phrase "fuck me in the butt" occurred before you make any more claims about Sulkowicz's desire for anal sex that night, or any night.
The context is two people who are in a sexual relationship. I do not know the date. Do you?
 
I also find it problematic that he is suing Columbia, not her. If this case was all about defamation, then the proper target of the lawsuit should be her. (I think it is about getting money from the deepest pockets.) How is suing Columbia for not violating her right to free speech or forbidding her choice of thesis project addressing what he claims is defamation of his character? IF there was any such defamation, it came when she accused him of rape to the university and to the police.

I see two reasons why he would sue the school. First, the one he'll be accused of, that they have deeper pockets.

Second, I notice that everybody is making excuses for her, because people feel empathy for genuine rape victims and want to keep them protected, etc. Derec makes a lot of good points that will fall on deaf ears due to that sympathy and drive to protect. People are making arguments, that may be true, but make a defence agaisnt her much more difficult, for example that rape victims often lie to themselves so you can't take anything they say as an indication of credibility. The school won't be afforded that kind of protection.

You could also argue that the school is in a position of authority and has a fiduciary duty to both her and him, so a higher standard of care to him than she has, and the school breached it when they allowed and endorsed her "art project" of shaming him. You may say that because of something she has been through she is too emotional or irrational to be thinking clearly, but the school has no such excuse.
 
It has everything to do with her trustworthiness. She lied about an aspect of her allegation and the case was purely "he said she said". Or more accurately "he said she lied".

She might have been up for anal sex that moment when she asked him about it. Or perhaps when they had sex she changed her mind about it. Or maybe she just wrote she likes anal sex, when she doesn´t, just to get him interested. Crazier things have happened.
All of these things are possible, of course. That doesn't make them probable. And all were things she could have said, whether true or false, when asked about it. Yet she chose to lie about not suggesting anal at all, which was quickly found to be not true.

Are you high? All those things are probable. It´s normal to be a neurotic mess about sex. That´s just a fact of life. Most people are really really weird about sex. I´m sure you have noticed?

People who are honest open and straight forward about what they want sexually almost never get laid. It´s the single most unattractive quality in a partner. People like having to work for it, and that implies that all flirting is on some level dishonest. It´s completely standard regarding human sexuality. Flirting is all about showing interest... but not too much interest. Ie lying about how interested one is. You´re creating a double standard for this girl because... why? You desperately want her to have wrongfully accused a guy of rape?

I believe our legal system is ill equipped to deal with rape cases.
You are dodging the question. In what way do you think "our legal system is ill equipped to deal with rape cases"? Because it gives the accused due process and presumption of innocence? Because proof beyond a reasonable doubt is required to convict? Something else?
And what legal system would you prefer instead? One where women are automatically believed even when they are caught in a lie? Or even better, not asked any tough questions so they are not in danger of trapping themselves in lies and inconsistencies when they falsely accuse somebody of rape?

Because sexual consent is given tacitly. Almost nothing we say verbally is of any relevance. Human sexuality and sexual instincts are way older than humanity itself. Sexually we are just a bunch of monkeys. All adults have figured this out already. We take it for a given. Sometimes a no means yes. Sometimes yes means no. It´s all in the body language.

The court system doesn´t give a shit about tacit consent. It´s all about what can be proven. What was said up front. Human sexuality doesn´t work the way our court systems assume it does.

If you would record the rubbish people say on dates all humans would come across as lunatics. Because it´s just a long string of retarded non-sequitors that somehow makes sense to the people involved. For example last time I picked a girl up at a bar we were talking about camping. It was the most boring subject in the universe. We both knew it was. Neither of us gave a shit about camping. I talked in detail about the gear way too slowly and in depth for it to be taken seriously. So we both had a super time, and very quickly we started making out and it ended up naked at my place boning the shit out of each other. I was just teasing her. We both knew it. She knew what I wanted. I knew what she wanted.

At no point did she give me verbal consent. At no point did we discuss the topic of sex. Not once. That doesn´t make it rape. The day after she friended me on Facebook. Not the sort of thing people do with rapists.

The most common thing for rape victims to do is to lie to themselves about the rape.
Lying to themselves is no problem. But when they start to lie to police and other authorities it becomes a big problem for their credibility.

Nobody but the victim is in a position to evaluate whether or not she is telling the truth. This is regardless of any evidence found that speaks against her. It is a problem.

The commonly manage to convince themselves that they were in on it. And blame themselves for being sad about it. Then when the trauma of the event subsides, they can finally come to admit to themselves what happened. It´s standard behaviour for rape victims. So they may say or do things that might make it seem like they weren´t really raped, when they were. For example, like telling someone they weren´t raped.
That' quite convenient. Whatever a woman says or does we must believe her because trauma. And patriarchy. :rolleyes:

No, it´s not convenient. It´s a fucking nuisance. It makes even the most basic and straight forward rape case a nightmare to sort out.

A very close friend of mine was a victim of a very brutal rape. I was the one who held her hand through the entire process and finding her therapy and all of that. She couldn´t bring herself to report the rape because she was too traumatised. I even got a written confession from the rapist. So it wouldn´t have been hard for her to press charges. She still couldn´t bring herself to do it. The rape survivor staff were very helpful. They taught me a lot about how this stuff works. Or doesn´t.
Just because she might have really been raped doesn't mean every woman who cries rape is telling the truth. That's why strong protections of the accused are important, both in criminal justice system and during campus tribunals. Unfortunately protections for men in the latter have been dismantled by the Obama decree from 2011.
You on the other hand want men accused of rape punished without evidence just because you know a rape victim. That is very dangerous road you want to take US down!

Ehe... no. All I´ve said is that our modern court system is ill equipped to deal with rape cases. I haven´t come with any solution. I agree with you that we don´t want to give women the power to throw men in jail willy nilly.

Don´t forget that some women are crazy. It´s common for women with borderline to believe they were raped. They truly believe they were raped and will report it as such. Even though they most likely weren´t. To make it worse, women with borderline are often extremely promiscuous. But at the same time we don´t want to give men a free pass to rape women with borderline. It´s a problem.
 
For example, his claim Sulkowicz enjoys anal sex is based on a quote-mine of an idiom on a par with "blow me down" or "gag me with a spoon", or "fuck me running".
No. "Fuck me in the butt" is not comparable to these other things as it is a realistic reference to sexual practice many people engage in (unlike spoon-gaging or fucking while running which are humorous and hyperbolic). They were also engaged in a sexual relationship at the time and she followed up with a reference to him missing her "lopsided" butt.
Derec is pretending, or at the very least assuming, it was a genuine indication Sulkowicz wanted anal sex the night Nungesser flipped her over and penetrated her anus.
It sure reads like it to me.

Hm.. Derec needs to get out more.

A recent sample of comments made to me.

"I want to give you a blow job right now."
"No, seriously, get your p***s over here"
"You're going for a shower? Need any help?"
"B*****r me senseless, right here, right now"
"I'm going to get undressed now, so unless you're planning to pin me to the wall and roger me..?"

"No, we just put D is the spare room, F on the sofa, and we can both take the big bed with Togo.
Hmm... not sure I want to share.
Honey, look at him, we're going to need to work shifts."

None of these were serious comments. None of them were made by people I was in a romantic relationship with.

The thing is, people will only get flirty if they feel safe doing so. If people feel comfortable around you, they're going to censor less. If they don't, then pretty much the only time anyone will mention sex around you is if they actually want sex.
 
It has everything to do with her trustworthiness. She lied about an aspect of her allegation and the case was purely "he said she said". Or more accurately "he said she lied".


All of these things are possible, of course. That doesn't make them probable. And all were things she could have said, whether true or false, when asked about it. Yet she chose to lie about not suggesting anal at all, which was quickly found to be not true.

Are you high? All those things are probable. It´s normal to be a neurotic mess about sex. That´s just a fact of life. Most people are really really weird about sex. I´m sure you have noticed?

People who are honest open and straight forward about what they want sexually almost never get laid. It´s the single most unattractive quality in a partner. People like having to work for it, and that implies that all flirting is on some level dishonest. It´s completely standard regarding human sexuality. Flirting is all about showing interest... but not too much interest. Ie lying about how interested one is. You´re creating a double standard for this girl because... why? You desperately want her to have wrongfully accused a guy of rape?

I believe our legal system is ill equipped to deal with rape cases.
You are dodging the question. In what way do you think "our legal system is ill equipped to deal with rape cases"? Because it gives the accused due process and presumption of innocence? Because proof beyond a reasonable doubt is required to convict? Something else?
And what legal system would you prefer instead? One where women are automatically believed even when they are caught in a lie? Or even better, not asked any tough questions so they are not in danger of trapping themselves in lies and inconsistencies when they falsely accuse somebody of rape?

Because sexual consent is given tacitly. Almost nothing we say verbally is of any relevance. Human sexuality and sexual instincts are way older than humanity itself. Sexually we are just a bunch of monkeys. All adults have figured this out already. We take it for a given. Sometimes a no means yes. Sometimes yes means no. It´s all in the body language.

The court system doesn´t give a shit about tacit consent. It´s all about what can be proven. What was said up front. Human sexuality doesn´t work the way our court systems assume it does.

If you would record the rubbish people say on dates all humans would come across as lunatics. Because it´s just a long string of retarded non-sequitors that somehow makes sense to the people involved. For example last time I picked a girl up at a bar we were talking about camping. It was the most boring subject in the universe. We both knew it was. Neither of us gave a shit about camping. I talked in detail about the gear way too slowly and in depth for it to be taken seriously. So we both had a super time, and very quickly we started making out and it ended up naked at my place boning the shit out of each other. I was just teasing her. We both knew it. She knew what I wanted. I knew what she wanted.

At no point did she give me verbal consent. At no point did we discuss the topic of sex. Not once. That doesn´t make it rape. The day after she friended me on Facebook. Not the sort of thing people do with rapists.

The most common thing for rape victims to do is to lie to themselves about the rape.
Lying to themselves is no problem. But when they start to lie to police and other authorities it becomes a big problem for their credibility.

Nobody but the victim is in a position to evaluate whether or not she is telling the truth. This is regardless of any evidence found that speaks against her. It is a problem.

The commonly manage to convince themselves that they were in on it. And blame themselves for being sad about it. Then when the trauma of the event subsides, they can finally come to admit to themselves what happened. It´s standard behaviour for rape victims. So they may say or do things that might make it seem like they weren´t really raped, when they were. For example, like telling someone they weren´t raped.
That' quite convenient. Whatever a woman says or does we must believe her because trauma. And patriarchy. :rolleyes:

No, it´s not convenient. It´s a fucking nuisance. It makes even the most basic and straight forward rape case a nightmare to sort out.

A very close friend of mine was a victim of a very brutal rape. I was the one who held her hand through the entire process and finding her therapy and all of that. She couldn´t bring herself to report the rape because she was too traumatised. I even got a written confession from the rapist. So it wouldn´t have been hard for her to press charges. She still couldn´t bring herself to do it. The rape survivor staff were very helpful. They taught me a lot about how this stuff works. Or doesn´t.
Just because she might have really been raped doesn't mean every woman who cries rape is telling the truth. That's why strong protections of the accused are important, both in criminal justice system and during campus tribunals. Unfortunately protections for men in the latter have been dismantled by the Obama decree from 2011.
You on the other hand want men accused of rape punished without evidence just because you know a rape victim. That is very dangerous road you want to take US down!

Ehe... no. All I´ve said is that our modern court system is ill equipped to deal with rape cases. I haven´t come with any solution. I agree with you that we don´t want to give women the power to throw men in jail willy nilly.

Don´t forget that some women are crazy. It´s common for women with borderline to believe they were raped. They truly believe they were raped and will report it as such. Even though they most likely weren´t. To make it worse, women with borderline are often extremely promiscuous. But at the same time we don´t want to give men a free pass to rape women with borderline. It´s a problem.

Rush Limbaugh, is that you?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/15/rush-limbaugh-consent_n_5824582.html
 
Surprise surprise, Derec accusing a woman of lying.

Being unable to prove a rape is not the same thing as her lying about it.

So you are going to just ignore all the other lies around this case.. like her lying about the nature of documented conversations? "well, it has been shown that she lied about nearly every aspect of this matter, but lets assume that she didn't lie about this one fact"... Go ahead, I'm not with you on this.
 

There´s a not-so-subtle difference between my argument and the typical Conservative/Rush´s argument. Rush implies that a manly man has to be bold and brave and aggressively go for it no matter what. It´s the whole madonna/whore bullshit. A "respectable" woman is completely passive and makes no sexual advances. It puts the onus on the man entirely. I think it´s total bullshit and don´t agree at all.

What I´m saying is that it´s all in the body language, ie consent is given that way. What Rush argues is that a man should ignore both verbal and bodily cues and be aggressive. To me that´s just justifying rape and I think he´s wrong.
 
I googled mattress girl.

She has a slammin' bod.

I'd hit it, fer sure. LOL
 
I googled mattress girl.

She has a slammin' bod.

I'd hit it, fer sure. LOL

Plus, she already has a mattress with her, so it's not like you need to spring for a hotel room or a cab ride home or anything. The convenience factor is huge.
 
I googled mattress girl.

She has a slammin' bod.

I'd hit it, fer sure. LOL

Are you sure she lies above the Vicky Mendoza Diagonal?


I mean accusing a former love interest of rape because he didn't reciprocate (any more) and then haul a mattress where you had sex all over campus for months is quite crazy. I do not think she is nearly hot enough to pull it off.
 
I googled mattress girl.

She has a slammin' bod.

I'd hit it, fer sure. LOL

Are you sure she lies above the Vicky Mendoza Diagonal?

I mean accusing a former love interest of rape because he didn't reciprocate (any more) and then haul a mattress where you had sex all over campus for months is quite crazy. I do not think she is nearly hot enough to pull it off.
So it looks like you are under the "she definitely lied" category now.
 
^^^^^^

Oh...I didn't say that Mattress Babe was not as crazy as a road lizard.

It's just that she looks like she'd be fun to roll around under the sheets with. I am sure she knows her way around, as well.

Also..looks like a screamer. Which is always good.
 
^^^^^^

Oh...I didn't say that Mattress Babe was not as crazy as a road lizard.

It's just that she looks like she'd be fun to roll around under the sheets with. I am sure she knows her way around, as well.

Also..looks like a screamer. Which is always good.

Don't stick your dick in crazy!
 
^^^^^^

Oh...I didn't say that Mattress Babe was not as crazy as a road lizard.

It's just that she looks like she'd be fun to roll around under the sheets with. I am sure she knows her way around, as well.

Also..looks like a screamer. Which is always good.

Hey, a TalkRat! How's it going?
 
These threads about Derec's crusade for the falsely accused of rape are always interesting reads for me. On the one hand, he makes some very good points, which often get dismissed with hostility and insults against him instead of logic or reason. But on the other hand, he brings the same cases up over and over and over and just doesn't seem to want to move on to another topic. Very tenacious. Borderline obsessed.

He also makes specious points that merit the derision and dismissal they receive, but he keeps repeating them because they support his usual theme of lying sluts who falsely accuse men of wrongdoing
Well it's not my fault there are so many cases of lying sluts making false allegations.

But it is your fault if your claims are shown to be specious and you keep making them anyway.

For example, his claim Sulkowicz enjoys anal sex is based on a quote-mine of an idiom on a par with "blow me down" or "gag me with a spoon", or "fuck me running".
No. "Fuck me in the butt" is not comparable to these other things as it is a a realistic reference to sexual practice many people engage in (unlike spoon-gaging or fucking while running which are humorous and hyperbolic). They were also engaged in a sexual relationship at the time and she followed up with a reference to him missing her "lopsided" butt.

Derec is pretending, or at the very least assuming, it was a genuine indication Sulkowicz wanted anal sex the night Nungesser flipped her over and penetrated her anus.
It sure reads like it to me.

My point exactly! It reads that way to you. It does not read that way to me and at least one other person responding to this thread. So how can we determine whose reading more accurately reflects the actual intent behind Sulkowicz's use of that phrase? By examining the context, not assuming her words mean whatever best supports our arguments.


You, on the other hand, take everything a woman says about rape at face value.

Not really. I usually wind up arguing with you because I think you are wrong, not because I automatically assume every woman accusing someone of rape is being completely forthright and honest, or remembering events with perfect clarity.

Derec, please post the date and context in which Sulkowicz's use of the phrase "fuck me in the butt" occurred before you make any more claims about Sulkowicz's desire for anal sex that night, or any night.
The context is two people who are in a sexual relationship. I do not know the date. Do you?

No, I don't know the date. That's why I'm asking. But if you don't know when that message was sent, you can't know if it was sent before, during, or after Sulkowicz and Nungesser entered into a sexual relationship. And without knowing the context we can only guess at what Sulkowicz intended to convey when she sent it.

How about this: kiss my ass.

Now, did I just tell you to place your lips on my posterior in a tender yet sexy-hot manly manner, or did I express disdain and hostility toward you? Or did I post that phrase as an example of a line of text that can be interpreted more than one way? The only way to tell is to consider the context. A quick glance at what I have posted in this thread indicates I posted it as an example of a phrase that has more than one meaning. But if you quote mine that phrase and present it out of context it could mistakenly be thought to mean something else.

Now suppose a year or two has passed and all of a sudden, some lawyer is saying I discussed beastiality with you. I know for certain we did no such thing, and I say so. Is that quote mined "kiss my ass" proof that I'm lying, that I ordered you to give old Francis here a lip-lock? No, it does not. No matter how that... oh, what's that word you use, shyster?.... no matter how that shyster twists my words, an honest attempt to parse my meaning will reveal that is not what I meant and we didn't discuss it (not yet, anyway).

What we need is a copy of the messages sent between Sulkowicz and Nungesser leading up to the phrase "fuck me in the butt", so we make an honest attempt to understand her meaning and see if she meant that literally or was employing an idiom for effect. We also need to know when she sent it so we can see for ourselves if Nungesser had reason to suppose Sulkowicz wanted anal sex the night they were having consensual vaginal intercourse. Without that context, all we have are what Nungesser's lawyer wants us to see. I don't think he being completely forthright and honest. Do you?
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom