An affirmative action thought experiment

[Toni]

Your aptitude will be affected by poor nutrition. It will be affected by your early childhood experience and it may be affected by your schooling thereafter. That is your raw ability to learn and perform cognitive tasks will be affected by the first two. The third I dont know. Possibly not.

So, all blacks have poor nutrition and cannot possibly be good physicians?

Unfortunately for your theory, there are certainly blacks who achieve high GPAs and high MCAT scores and even enter into Ph.D. programs--sometimes becoming quite famous in fields such as physics..

Except you're the one trying to pretend all blacks live under the same handicaps. Since we are specifically asserting that this is not the case you can't use an assumption based on it against us.

You are (again) trying to pretend that you know what I think and believe and you're doing a really bad job of it. Again. And misrepresenting my position.

Try stating and supporting your own position. It would be a welcome change.

 

[Toni]

No. There's a practice effect with test preparation, but not all people who have test prep classes will do better than all people who do not.

Honestly, if the responses here were anything to go by, you'd imagine test prep classes were nothing but masses of students memorising leaked answer keys, cost $100,000 each, and guaranteed a perfect MCAT score.

and kids who work their asses off in marginal schools are lesser than slackers who get private tutoring courtesy of their parents.

Uh, no. Students who have poorer scores are lesser students, to the extent that scores measure aptitude.

But if you go by efforts expended or obstacles overcome,

You'd measure effort expended and obstacle overcome, not just use race and pretend it's the same thing.

the kids coming out of poor school districts and bad neighborhoods are actually the superior candidates - they know what it means to work hard to achieve a goal.

If you want to measure resilience, measure it. But don't use race and pretend it's the same thing.

So why should a test result be the only thing considered

I did not say it, I don't believe it, and I'm tired of the broken record.

when candidates are being considered? Why not consider what it took for a candidate to meet the requirements for admission, and value it?

If 'what it took' explains additional variability in academic success above and beyond aptitude and achievement, then by all means, measure it and use it.

But don't use race and pretend it's the same thing.

I don't use race and pretend it's the same thing, and neither do Affirmative Action programs that have withstood the test of time.

Back when AA first went into effect, anti-AA folks said it was "reverse-racism", and it would "dumb down" out colleges. The reverse-racism claims have been dealt with in multiple court cases over the years. Programs that relied on quotas were struck down. Programs that unfairly weight race, gender, or ethnicity have been sharply limited even in private colleges. But the claims that AA is dumbing-down our schools are still out there.

Instead of focusing on the quality of students being admitted to medical school, why not focus on the quality of graduates being produced by them? Has there been a drop in the quality of medical doctors since AA went into effect? If so, and AA is the reason for it, you should be able to demonstrate that. If not, then whatever you think about the quality of the students being admitted doesn't appear to have any effect on the quality of students graduating.

It probably has a diminished effect on the quality of graduates, because not everyone graduates.

These data show that Blacks are seven times more likely to drop out of medical school for 'academic reasons' compared to Whites. This should not be a surprise, because the mean aptitude and achievement of admitted Blacks was lower than that for Whites. The reasons for leaving also differed: Blacks were most likely to cite 'academic reasons' whilst Whites and Asians were more likely to cite non-academic reasons.

Dropout rates for those with an MCAT score 27 or under within the first two years of medical school were double those of the people with an MCAT score 28 or higher.

You can't be a quality physician if you don't graduate.

But no doubt you'll ignore the blindingly obvious and shift the goalposts again.

I wonder if you have read your own link? ( from your link)

Therefore, the data comparison from the 1987 and 1995 cohorts demonstrates that enrolling more students from groups underrepresented in medicine did not result in lower graduation rates, either for the students in those groups or for the entire class..

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It probably has a diminished effect on the quality of graduates, because not everyone graduates.

These data show that Blacks are seven times more likely to drop out of medical school for 'academic reasons' compared to Whites. This should not be a surprise, because the mean aptitude and achievement of admitted Blacks was lower than that for Whites. The reasons for leaving also differed: Blacks were most likely to cite 'academic reasons' whilst Whites and Asians were more likely to cite non-academic reasons.

Dropout rates for those with an MCAT score 27 or under within the first two years of medical school were double those of the people with an MCAT score 28 or higher.

You can't be a quality physician if you don't graduate.

But no doubt you'll ignore the blindingly obvious and shift the goalposts again.

Obviously the schools have a bunch of racist teachers!

 

[Tom Sawyer]

It probably has a diminished effect on the quality of graduates, because not everyone graduates.

These data show that Blacks are seven times more likely to drop out of medical school for 'academic reasons' compared to Whites. This should not be a surprise, because the mean aptitude and achievement of admitted Blacks was lower than that for Whites. The reasons for leaving also differed: Blacks were most likely to cite 'academic reasons' whilst Whites and Asians were more likely to cite non-academic reasons.

Dropout rates for those with an MCAT score 27 or under within the first two years of medical school were double those of the people with an MCAT score 28 or higher.

You can't be a quality physician if you don't graduate.

But no doubt you'll ignore the blindingly obvious and shift the goalposts again.

Obviously the schools have a bunch of racist teachers!

Or some other form of institutionalized racism. I posted a link in the other AA thread about how dropout rates for blacks who go to historically black colleges are the same as whites who go to regular colleges but are far lower for blacks who go to regular colleges and universities (even those which are ranked comparably to the HBCs). That adds credence to the marketing spiel from the HBCs that they allow the students to study in an environment that's free from the bigotry and hatred, both explicit and subtle, that they experience at regular schools.

If things like that factor into the dropout rates for minorities in universities, one would expect similar things to factor into them at higher level institutions like medical schools as well.

 

[Toni]

It probably has a diminished effect on the quality of graduates, because not everyone graduates.

These data show that Blacks are seven times more likely to drop out of medical school for 'academic reasons' compared to Whites. This should not be a surprise, because the mean aptitude and achievement of admitted Blacks was lower than that for Whites. The reasons for leaving also differed: Blacks were most likely to cite 'academic reasons' whilst Whites and Asians were more likely to cite non-academic reasons.

Dropout rates for those with an MCAT score 27 or under within the first two years of medical school were double those of the people with an MCAT score 28 or higher.

You can't be a quality physician if you don't graduate.

But no doubt you'll ignore the blindingly obvious and shift the goalposts again.

Obviously the schools have a bunch of racist teachers!

Or some other form of institutionalized racism. I posted a link in the other AA thread about how dropout rates for blacks who go to historically black colleges are the same as whites who go to regular colleges but are far lower for blacks who go to regular colleges and universities (even those which are ranked comparably to the HBCs). That adds credence to the marketing spiel from the HBCs that they allow the students to study in an environment that's free from the bigotry and hatred, both explicit and subtle, that they experience at regular schools.

If things like that factor into the dropout rates for minorities in universities, one would expect similar things to factor into them at higher level institutions like medical schools as well.

I live in a state that is overwhelmingly white, considered to be a 'blue' state and progressive--and one which has among the highest achievement gaps between white students and all minority students. Yet, we are so nice! My observation is that indeed, it is institutional bias but very insidious: minority students are simply assumed to be less: capable, less intelligent, less well behaved, and more violent, more unstable, more (insert negative here). I've watched it happen in classrooms and heard the assumptions among teachers in hallways.

If you treat students as though you cannot expect much achievement from them and as though they must be behind because of (insert some external characteristic such as color of skin or perceived socio-economic group) and are far more likely to misbehave. In fact, my observation is that some teachers view certain behaviors as bad, more violent, more disobedient, more out of control if the behaviors are exhibited by students they perceive as being 'under privileged.' Color of skin is a factor but not the only factor. Not all teachers do this and I believe none or very few do it unconsciously, but it happens. And adds up.

 

[laughing dog]

I read the OP very carefully. My reaction is "Who cares about figure skating?"

 

[Metaphor]

No. There's a practice effect with test preparation, but not all people who have test prep classes will do better than all people who do not.

Honestly, if the responses here were anything to go by, you'd imagine test prep classes were nothing but masses of students memorising leaked answer keys, cost $100,000 each, and guaranteed a perfect MCAT score.

and kids who work their asses off in marginal schools are lesser than slackers who get private tutoring courtesy of their parents.

Uh, no. Students who have poorer scores are lesser students, to the extent that scores measure aptitude.

But if you go by efforts expended or obstacles overcome,

You'd measure effort expended and obstacle overcome, not just use race and pretend it's the same thing.

the kids coming out of poor school districts and bad neighborhoods are actually the superior candidates - they know what it means to work hard to achieve a goal.

If you want to measure resilience, measure it. But don't use race and pretend it's the same thing.

So why should a test result be the only thing considered

I did not say it, I don't believe it, and I'm tired of the broken record.

when candidates are being considered? Why not consider what it took for a candidate to meet the requirements for admission, and value it?

If 'what it took' explains additional variability in academic success above and beyond aptitude and achievement, then by all means, measure it and use it.

But don't use race and pretend it's the same thing.

I don't use race and pretend it's the same thing, and neither do Affirmative Action programs that have withstood the test of time.

Back when AA first went into effect, anti-AA folks said it was "reverse-racism", and it would "dumb down" out colleges. The reverse-racism claims have been dealt with in multiple court cases over the years. Programs that relied on quotas were struck down. Programs that unfairly weight race, gender, or ethnicity have been sharply limited even in private colleges. But the claims that AA is dumbing-down our schools are still out there.

Instead of focusing on the quality of students being admitted to medical school, why not focus on the quality of graduates being produced by them? Has there been a drop in the quality of medical doctors since AA went into effect? If so, and AA is the reason for it, you should be able to demonstrate that. If not, then whatever you think about the quality of the students being admitted doesn't appear to have any effect on the quality of students graduating.

It probably has a diminished effect on the quality of graduates, because not everyone graduates.

These data show that Blacks are seven times more likely to drop out of medical school for 'academic reasons' compared to Whites. This should not be a surprise, because the mean aptitude and achievement of admitted Blacks was lower than that for Whites. The reasons for leaving also differed: Blacks were most likely to cite 'academic reasons' whilst Whites and Asians were more likely to cite non-academic reasons.

Dropout rates for those with an MCAT score 27 or under within the first two years of medical school were double those of the people with an MCAT score 28 or higher.

You can't be a quality physician if you don't graduate.

But no doubt you'll ignore the blindingly obvious and shift the goalposts again.

I wonder if you have read your own link? ( from your link)

Therefore, the data comparison from the 1987 and 1995 cohorts demonstrates that enrolling more students from groups underrepresented in medicine did not result in lower graduation rates, either for the students in those groups or for the entire class..

Of course I read my own link. Do you think that last paragraph somehow wipes away the actual evidence presented prior? It doesn't. People with lower MCAT scores are more likely to drop out, and Blacks are more likely to drop out than Whites or Asians.

Do you care that after ten years, Blacks have a non-graduation rate 7 times that of Whites? You don't think that has anything to do with admitting Blacks with lower MCAT scores, despite the fact that lower MCAT scores lead to a higher dropout rate?

 

[Toni]

No. There's a practice effect with test preparation, but not all people who have test prep classes will do better than all people who do not.

Honestly, if the responses here were anything to go by, you'd imagine test prep classes were nothing but masses of students memorising leaked answer keys, cost $100,000 each, and guaranteed a perfect MCAT score.

and kids who work their asses off in marginal schools are lesser than slackers who get private tutoring courtesy of their parents.

Uh, no. Students who have poorer scores are lesser students, to the extent that scores measure aptitude.

But if you go by efforts expended or obstacles overcome,

You'd measure effort expended and obstacle overcome, not just use race and pretend it's the same thing.

the kids coming out of poor school districts and bad neighborhoods are actually the superior candidates - they know what it means to work hard to achieve a goal.

If you want to measure resilience, measure it. But don't use race and pretend it's the same thing.

So why should a test result be the only thing considered

I did not say it, I don't believe it, and I'm tired of the broken record.

when candidates are being considered? Why not consider what it took for a candidate to meet the requirements for admission, and value it?

If 'what it took' explains additional variability in academic success above and beyond aptitude and achievement, then by all means, measure it and use it.

But don't use race and pretend it's the same thing.

I don't use race and pretend it's the same thing, and neither do Affirmative Action programs that have withstood the test of time.

Back when AA first went into effect, anti-AA folks said it was "reverse-racism", and it would "dumb down" out colleges. The reverse-racism claims have been dealt with in multiple court cases over the years. Programs that relied on quotas were struck down. Programs that unfairly weight race, gender, or ethnicity have been sharply limited even in private colleges. But the claims that AA is dumbing-down our schools are still out there.

Instead of focusing on the quality of students being admitted to medical school, why not focus on the quality of graduates being produced by them? Has there been a drop in the quality of medical doctors since AA went into effect? If so, and AA is the reason for it, you should be able to demonstrate that. If not, then whatever you think about the quality of the students being admitted doesn't appear to have any effect on the quality of students graduating.

It probably has a diminished effect on the quality of graduates, because not everyone graduates.

These data show that Blacks are seven times more likely to drop out of medical school for 'academic reasons' compared to Whites. This should not be a surprise, because the mean aptitude and achievement of admitted Blacks was lower than that for Whites. The reasons for leaving also differed: Blacks were most likely to cite 'academic reasons' whilst Whites and Asians were more likely to cite non-academic reasons.

Dropout rates for those with an MCAT score 27 or under within the first two years of medical school were double those of the people with an MCAT score 28 or higher.

You can't be a quality physician if you don't graduate.

But no doubt you'll ignore the blindingly obvious and shift the goalposts again.

I wonder if you have read your own link? ( from your link)

Therefore, the data comparison from the 1987 and 1995 cohorts demonstrates that enrolling more students from groups underrepresented in medicine did not result in lower graduation rates, either for the students in those groups or for the entire class..

Of course I read my own link. Do you think that last paragraph somehow wipes away the actual evidence presented prior? It doesn't. People with lower MCAT scores are more likely to drop out, and Blacks are more likely to drop out than Whites or Asians.

Do you care that after ten years, Blacks have a non-graduation rate 7 times that of Whites? You don't think that has anything to do with admitting Blacks with lower MCAT scores, despite the fact that lower MCAT scores lead to a higher dropout rate?

Then you noticed that the drop out rate is still quite small, regardless of the group. 7 times a very small number is still a very small number. The overwhelming majority of students admitted to medical school do successfully complete their medical school training. And you noticed (but did not mention above) that Asian students drop out at a higher rate than do white students. Why would that be?

Moreover, the reasons for dropping out were self reported. Is it possible that some groups of students are more self-critical than others?

Certainly there is concern about why any student drops out. Perhaps it would be a good idea to investigate why students drop out.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23363547

http://www.amsa.org/AMSA/Libraries/Committee_Docs/study_meded.sflb.ashx

Minority students attending majority medical schools
perceive that they are not respected by peers, faculty and administrators. The lack of
respect creates a situation in which minority students are consistently justifying their
place within medicine.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/717213_5

http://www.kulturekritic.com/2013/1...y-medical-school-mistreats-african-americans/

 

[Tom Sawyer]

OMG!

Can people use the frigging backspace button when quoting a post? You don't need the entire thread in there.

 

[Metaphor]

Then you noticed that the drop out rate is still quite small, regardless of the group. 7 times a very small number is still a very small number.

A small drop out rate is something to be strived for, undoubtedly. Students who drop out harm the school, they harm themselves financially and by having wasted their time, they harm others who would have been in their slot and succeeded, etc.

The overwhelming majority of students admitted to medical school do successfully complete their medical school training. And you noticed (but did not mention above) that Asian students drop out at a higher rate than do white students. Why would that be?

I would not be willing to say that 1.1% is statistically different to 0.9%, but I am willing to say 7% is different to 1%. If we were going on MCAT alone, Asians should have a lower dropout rate. But if the effect is real I would imagine it would include the socioeconomic status effect -- people from lower SES backgrounds drop out at a higher rate, and Asians may have a lower SES than Whites.

Moreover, the reasons for dropping out were self reported. Is it possible that some groups of students are more self-critical than others?

Anything's possible. But are you suggesting that a group with lower academic credentials would drop out at the same rate as a group with higher academic credentials? Do you have any reason to doubt the self-reported reason?

Minority students attending majority medical schools
perceive that they are not respected by peers, faculty and administrators. The lack of
respect creates a situation in which minority students are consistently justifying their
place within medicine.

Are Asians defined as minority students in the above? If they are, why do Asians drop out at a far lesser rate?

Since it is public knowledge that Blacks are let in with lesser credentials than Whites or Asians, don't you believe that's going to have an effect, either conscious or unconscious, on people's perceptions?

If you take a a typical first year medicine class and pick an Asian student, a White student, and a Black student, the Asian is likely to be more competent (based on MCAT) than the White student, and the White student is likely to be more competent than the Black student, because Asians have a higher bar of admittance, followed by Whites, followed by Blacks.

Deliberately structuring your intake so that the average competence is lower for Blacks does not help anyone, least of all Black students.

 

[Arctish]

If you take a a typical first year medicine class and pick an Asian student, a White student, and a Black student, the Asian is likely to be more competent (based on MCAT) than the White student, and the White student is likely to be more competent than the Black student, because Asians have a higher bar of admittance, followed by Whites, followed by Blacks.

Deliberately structuring your intake so that the average competence is lower for Blacks does not help anyone, least of all Black students.

So now we need to define competence.

You say "a typical first year medicine class and pick an Asian student, a White student, and a Black student, the Asian is likely to be more competent (based on MCAT) than the White student" but your link says the Asian student is more likely to drop out than the white student. If competence is the measure of a student's ability to successfully complete the program, it seems to me the Asian students are less competent than the whites despite having higher MCAT scores.

 

[Derec]

If competence is the measure of a student's ability to successfully complete the program, it seems to me the Asian students are less competent than the whites despite having higher MCAT scores.

As the source said, whites and Asians cited non-academic reasons most often while blacks cited academic reasons. As is to be expected if blacks are admitted based on their race when they should not be based on their performance.

 

[Toni]

If competence is the measure of a student's ability to successfully complete the program, it seems to me the Asian students are less competent than the whites despite having higher MCAT scores.

As the source said, whites and Asians cited non-academic reasons most often while blacks cited academic reasons. As is to be expected if blacks are admitted based on their race when they should not be based on their performance.

But the link also stated that Asian students are more likely than white students to drop out for ACADEMIC reasons. Please note that reasons for dropping out are self reported. I haven't seen data suggesting that there are objective measures saying that black students or Asian students actually perform less well than do white students. We don't know how well any group evaluates their own performance.

 

[Arctish]

If competence is the measure of a student's ability to successfully complete the program, it seems to me the Asian students are less competent than the whites despite having higher MCAT scores.

As the source said, whites and Asians cited non-academic reasons most often while blacks cited academic reasons. As is to be expected if blacks are admitted based on their race when they should not be based on their performance.

But the link also stated that Asian students are more likely than white students to drop out for ACADEMIC reasons. Please note that reasons for dropping out are self reported. I haven't seen data suggesting that there are objective measures saying that black students or Asian students actually perform less well than do white students. We don't know how well any group evaluates their own performance.

That's the part I wanted to focus on. Metaphor has made claims about MCAT scores indicating aptitude, and said those with lower MCAT scores are less qualified for college admission than those with higher scores. This does not appear to be true of Asian students. They have higher MCAT scores yet drop out more often for academic reasons than white students. So, what's up with that? If Metaphor is right, the students with the highest MCATs should be least likely to drop out, but apparently that's not the case.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It probably has a diminished effect on the quality of graduates, because not everyone graduates.

These data show that Blacks are seven times more likely to drop out of medical school for 'academic reasons' compared to Whites. This should not be a surprise, because the mean aptitude and achievement of admitted Blacks was lower than that for Whites. The reasons for leaving also differed: Blacks were most likely to cite 'academic reasons' whilst Whites and Asians were more likely to cite non-academic reasons.

Dropout rates for those with an MCAT score 27 or under within the first two years of medical school were double those of the people with an MCAT score 28 or higher.

You can't be a quality physician if you don't graduate.

But no doubt you'll ignore the blindingly obvious and shift the goalposts again.

Obviously the schools have a bunch of racist teachers!

Or some other form of institutionalized racism. I posted a link in the other AA thread about how dropout rates for blacks who go to historically black colleges are the same as whites who go to regular colleges but are far lower for blacks who go to regular colleges and universities (even those which are ranked comparably to the HBCs). That adds credence to the marketing spiel from the HBCs that they allow the students to study in an environment that's free from the bigotry and hatred, both explicit and subtle, that they experience at regular schools.

If things like that factor into the dropout rates for minorities in universities, one would expect similar things to factor into them at higher level institutions like medical schools as well.

I wasn't being serious, just presenting the defense the discriminators would have to use.

As for the HBC dropout rate--the reason is simple: They don't discriminate in admissions. Normal colleges that don't discriminate also see the dropout rates are the same for white and black.

 

[Toni]

OMG!

Can people use the frigging backspace button when quoting a post? You don't need the entire thread in there.

Well, Tom, I gave your suggestion a shot but it made my reply to you seem to make no sense at all.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

As for the HBC dropout rate--the reason is simple: They don't discriminate in admissions. Normal colleges that don't discriminate also see the dropout rates are the same for white and black.

I don't recall seeing that when I was looking into it. Can you share a link?

 

[Metaphor]

So now we need to define competence.

You say "a typical first year medicine class and pick an Asian student, a White student, and a Black student, the Asian is likely to be more competent (based on MCAT) than the White student" but your link says the Asian student is more likely to drop out than the white student.

First, I am not so confident in the relative standard error (which is unknown) that I'd be willing to say that a dropout rate of 0.9% is statistically significantly different from 1.1%

But even if the difference were significant, it is also known that SES affects completion, even when MCAT is controlled for -- part or all of the difference between Asians and Whites in dropout rate may be due to SES differences.

If competence is the measure of a student's ability to successfully complete the program, it seems to me the Asian students are less competent than the whites despite having higher MCAT scores.

No: you could only say that if you were certain that the difference between 0.9% and 1.1% was statistically significant, and that you had controlled for other relevant variables.

The data presented are not sufficient to rule out the possibility that all of the difference between Whites and Blacks for academic dropouts is explained by things other than measured competence, but it is vanishingly unlikely that the differences in average MCAT score had no effect, since people with MCAT scores 28 and above had half the dropout rate compared to people with MCAT scores of 27 or below.

 

[Metaphor]

If competence is the measure of a student's ability to successfully complete the program, it seems to me the Asian students are less competent than the whites despite having higher MCAT scores.

As the source said, whites and Asians cited non-academic reasons most often while blacks cited academic reasons. As is to be expected if blacks are admitted based on their race when they should not be based on their performance.

But the link also stated that Asian students are more likely than white students to drop out for ACADEMIC reasons. Please note that reasons for dropping out are self reported. I haven't seen data suggesting that there are objective measures saying that black students or Asian students actually perform less well than do white students. We don't know how well any group evaluates their own performance.

That's the part I wanted to focus on. Metaphor has made claims about MCAT scores indicating aptitude, and said those with lower MCAT scores are less qualified for college admission than those with higher scores. This does not appear to be true of Asian students. They have higher MCAT scores yet drop out more often for academic reasons than white students. So, what's up with that? If Metaphor is right, the students with the highest MCATs should be least likely to drop out, but apparently that's not the case.

Students with higher MCAT scores are less likely to drop out. The data show this unambiguously.

However, I never once claimed that MCAT score was the only factor that would influence dropout rates for academic reasons (or for any reason). Of course there are bound to be group differences between Whites and Asians on factors that also influence dropout rates, one of which (SES) I have already talked about.

 

[Metaphor]

But the link also stated that Asian students are more likely than white students to drop out for ACADEMIC reasons. Please note that reasons for dropping out are self reported. I haven't seen data suggesting that there are objective measures saying that black students or Asian students actually perform less well than do white students. We don't know how well any group evaluates their own performance.

I have stated multiple times that I am not confident that the difference between 0.9% and 1.1% is statistically significant. But even if it were, I never claimed MCAT score was the only factor that influenced dropout rate. It would be madness for me to claim it, since I read my own source and I can see and have said that SES also affects dropout rate, even when MCAT is (very crudely) held constant.

As for objective data about performance, I would welcome it. I would be astonished to the core, however, if it revealed anything contrary to established facts, like that aptitude predicts academic performance, and therefore I would expect the higher MCAT scorers to do better, on average, than lower MCAT scorers.