British students: Israel is worse than ISIS

[bilby]

The NUS is an organisation whose sole function it to lobby for the rights of students at UK universities.

They have no reason whatsoever to make any kind of comment on international affairs. But they constantly do, because they are narcissistic morons.

It is hilarious that anybody is dumb enough to take anything they do in this field seriously. It makes about as much sense to care about what nations or quasi-national organisations the NUS does or does not condemn as it does to worry about which criminals a four year old wearing a Batman costume wants to see imprisoned.

And of course, YOU AREN'T?

Who isn't? The point is that nobody freaks out about my opinion on international affairs, because I don't have any influence in that area. The NUS don't either. But they would like to think that they do, and they would like everyone else to think they are important and powerful too.

Only a fool would take their word for it. They are children, playing at being adults. They can safely be ignored.

 

[arkirk]

And of course, YOU AREN'T?

Who isn't? The point is that nobody freaks out about my opinion on international affairs, because I don't have any influence in that area. The NUS don't either. But they would like to think that they do, and they would like everyone else to think they are important and powerful too.

Only a fool would take their word for it. They are children, playing at being adults. They can safely be ignored.

So can you. You really do not know what they know. You do not know they are children playing at being adults. That may just be a meme you have in your head expressing itself in public. Not addressing the argument and attacking the arguer...hmmm ad h.....m. They stated their position and I don't particularly agree with it but I am not labeling them for their take on the issue. In fact, my position is closer to theirs than yours...

I feel ISIS is reactionary and its movement is fueled by U.S. actions in the area. They fight us with weapons from our factories. They (ISIS) are a backward people whose modern knowledge has been artificially controlled by colonial and neo liberal overlords and when they shake loose from the foreign domination, they do not have a deep file of policies on governance or even morals at their disposal. They do terrible things because they really do not know to do anything else. Western and eastern religionists both have a religious cookbook that contains long chapters on retribution and revenge. That is what you are seeing when they cut off heads. That is also what you are seeing when IDF drops WP on a U.N. school. I think what the students were trying to say was that it should be easier for Israel to cease and desist from its predations than for ISIS and that in not ceasing when they could, they are "worse." Actually the situation is deplorable and both groups owe their members a retreat from violence...especially things like burning school children to death with WP and cutting off heads.

 

[untermensche]

http://nypost.com/2015/06/07/as-isis-brutalizes-women-a-pathetic-feminist-silence/

The continual denial of rights and theft and violent brutality ARE no better than ISIS.

Seems like a clueless statement to me. No one will take what you say seriously.

The Israeli government has kidnapped and tortured and killed more than ISIS.

It has denied the rights of self determination of millions for decades.

It is a thuggish despicable government that would have been put out of business a long time ago had the US not protected it unilaterally at the UN.

 

[bilby]

Who isn't? The point is that nobody freaks out about my opinion on international affairs, because I don't have any influence in that area. The NUS don't either. But they would like to think that they do, and they would like everyone else to think they are important and powerful too.

Only a fool would take their word for it. They are children, playing at being adults. They can safely be ignored.

So can you. You really do not know what they know. You do not know they are children playing at being adults.

You are right; perhaps they have changed dramatically in the last 30 years. I would not bet on it though.

That may just be a meme you have in your head expressing itself in public.

ALL public statements - including the one you just made about the one I just made - are memes you have in your head expressing themselves in public. There is no 'just' about it.

Not addressing the argument and attacking the arguer...hmmm ad h.....m.

I am not attempting to address their argument, because they are not making an argument in this thread I am addressing the arguments of the other contributors to this thread; and I am pointing out to those people that they are arguing about the statements of a powerless group of self-promoting morons.

Of course, they are free to do so; But they should be aware that the NUS is not an organisation that has any influence in this issue. They are a powerless group of wannabes with a history of making statements that are unrelated to their actual remit; and they do this because their leadership is made up of people who think far more of their own opinions than is justified by reality.

They stated their position and I don't particularly agree with it but I am not labeling them for their take on the issue.

I am not labelling them for their take on the issue; I am describing them for the benefit of those who are unfamiliar with who the NUS are, and what their history is in such cases. If you mistake them for an influential lobby group, or for people who are taken seriously by anyone except themselves, then you are being misled.

In fact, my position is closer to theirs than yours...

I have not expressed a position on the question of whether Israel is or is not worse than ISIS, so you cannot possibly know that. You are projecting.

I don't believe that it is a valuable or valid comparison to make; I have no opinion on the matter one way or another. I DO however know what the NUS is supposed to do; and what the organisation is like; and the sort of people who are attracted to leadership roles in that organisation, and I am comfortable in my assessment that their opinion in such matters as to which international organisations to censure or to support is valueless. You might as well discuss the opinion expressed by The Onion, albeit with the minor difference that the writers for The Onion know that they are not to be taken seriously.

I feel ISIS is reactionary and its movement is fueled by U.S. actions in the area. They fight us with weapons from our factories. They (ISIS) are a backward people whose modern knowledge has been artificially controlled by colonial and neo liberal overlords and when they shake loose from the foreign domination, they do not have a deep file of policies on governance or even morals at their disposal. They do terrible things because they really do not know to do anything else. Western and eastern religionists both have a religious cookbook that contains long chapters on retribution and revenge. That is what you are seeing when they cut off heads. That is also what you are seeing when IDF drops WP on a U.N. school. I think what the students were trying to say was that it should be easier for Israel to cease and desist from its predations than for ISIS and that in not ceasing when they could, they are "worse." Actually the situation is deplorable and both groups owe their members a retreat from violence...especially things like burning school children to death with WP and cutting off heads.

Both groups do lots of harmful things. Neither group will resile from those things due to any action or statement made by the NUS; and there is no more sense in comparing the two groups to determine which is 'worse' than there is in arguing who would win in a fight between Godzilla and King Kong.

 

[arkirk]

So can you. You really do not know what they know. You do not know they are children playing at being adults.

You are right; perhaps they have changed dramatically in the last 30 years. I would not bet on it though.

That may just be a meme you have in your head expressing itself in public.

ALL public statements - including the one you just made about the one I just made - are memes you have in your head expressing themselves in public. There is no 'just' about it.

Not addressing the argument and attacking the arguer...hmmm ad h.....m.

I am not attempting to address their argument, because they are not making an argument in this thread I am addressing the arguments of the other contributors to this thread; and I am pointing out to those people that they are arguing about the statements of a powerless group of self-promoting morons.

Of course, they are free to do so; But they should be aware that the NUS is not an organisation that has any influence in this issue. They are a powerless group of wannabes with a history of making statements that are unrelated to their actual remit; and they do this because their leadership is made up of people who think far more of their own opinions than is justified by reality.

They stated their position and I don't particularly agree with it but I am not labeling them for their take on the issue.

I am not labelling them for their take on the issue; I am describing them for the benefit of those who are unfamiliar with who the NUS are, and what their history is in such cases. If you mistake them for an influential lobby group, or for people who are taken seriously by anyone except themselves, then you are being misled.

In fact, my position is closer to theirs than yours...

I have not expressed a position on the question of whether Israel is or is not worse than ISIS, so you cannot possibly know that. You are projecting.

I don't believe that it is a valuable or valid comparison to make; I have no opinion on the matter one way or another. I DO however know what the NUS is supposed to do; and what the organisation is like; and the sort of people who are attracted to leadership roles in that organisation, and I am comfortable in my assessment that their opinion in such matters as to which international organisations to censure or to support is valueless. You might as well discuss the opinion expressed by The Onion, albeit with the minor difference that the writers for The Onion know that they are not to be taken seriously.

I feel ISIS is reactionary and its movement is fueled by U.S. actions in the area. They fight us with weapons from our factories. They (ISIS) are a backward people whose modern knowledge has been artificially controlled by colonial and neo liberal overlords and when they shake loose from the foreign domination, they do not have a deep file of policies on governance or even morals at their disposal. They do terrible things because they really do not know to do anything else. Western and eastern religionists both have a religious cookbook that contains long chapters on retribution and revenge. That is what you are seeing when they cut off heads. That is also what you are seeing when IDF drops WP on a U.N. school. I think what the students were trying to say was that it should be easier for Israel to cease and desist from its predations than for ISIS and that in not ceasing when they could, they are "worse." Actually the situation is deplorable and both groups owe their members a retreat from violence...especially things like burning school children to death with WP and cutting off heads.

Both groups do lots of harmful things. Neither group will resile from those things due to any action or statement made by the NUS; and there is no more sense in comparing the two groups to determine which is 'worse' than there is in arguing who would win in a fight between Godzilla and King Kong.

So then I take it nobody who does not live in the area should have any opinion whatever on what happens there. How do you know that this group of students have not seriously considered the issue? Your poo-poo-ing of students being concerned with international politics has the effect of shoveling them into the furnace to be used later for cannon fodder. You just seem to think students cannot think or contribute anything at all. If an issue like this has the possible result of forcing them into the army to be a part of the battle, then it is clearly in the real of their prerogative to opine on the issue. Just saying.....

 

[bilby]

You are right; perhaps they have changed dramatically in the last 30 years. I would not bet on it though.

That may just be a meme you have in your head expressing itself in public.

ALL public statements - including the one you just made about the one I just made - are memes you have in your head expressing themselves in public. There is no 'just' about it.

Not addressing the argument and attacking the arguer...hmmm ad h.....m.

I am not attempting to address their argument, because they are not making an argument in this thread I am addressing the arguments of the other contributors to this thread; and I am pointing out to those people that they are arguing about the statements of a powerless group of self-promoting morons.

Of course, they are free to do so; But they should be aware that the NUS is not an organisation that has any influence in this issue. They are a powerless group of wannabes with a history of making statements that are unrelated to their actual remit; and they do this because their leadership is made up of people who think far more of their own opinions than is justified by reality.

They stated their position and I don't particularly agree with it but I am not labeling them for their take on the issue.

I am not labelling them for their take on the issue; I am describing them for the benefit of those who are unfamiliar with who the NUS are, and what their history is in such cases. If you mistake them for an influential lobby group, or for people who are taken seriously by anyone except themselves, then you are being misled.

In fact, my position is closer to theirs than yours...

I have not expressed a position on the question of whether Israel is or is not worse than ISIS, so you cannot possibly know that. You are projecting.

I don't believe that it is a valuable or valid comparison to make; I have no opinion on the matter one way or another. I DO however know what the NUS is supposed to do; and what the organisation is like; and the sort of people who are attracted to leadership roles in that organisation, and I am comfortable in my assessment that their opinion in such matters as to which international organisations to censure or to support is valueless. You might as well discuss the opinion expressed by The Onion, albeit with the minor difference that the writers for The Onion know that they are not to be taken seriously.

I feel ISIS is reactionary and its movement is fueled by U.S. actions in the area. They fight us with weapons from our factories. They (ISIS) are a backward people whose modern knowledge has been artificially controlled by colonial and neo liberal overlords and when they shake loose from the foreign domination, they do not have a deep file of policies on governance or even morals at their disposal. They do terrible things because they really do not know to do anything else. Western and eastern religionists both have a religious cookbook that contains long chapters on retribution and revenge. That is what you are seeing when they cut off heads. That is also what you are seeing when IDF drops WP on a U.N. school. I think what the students were trying to say was that it should be easier for Israel to cease and desist from its predations than for ISIS and that in not ceasing when they could, they are "worse." Actually the situation is deplorable and both groups owe their members a retreat from violence...especially things like burning school children to death with WP and cutting off heads.

Both groups do lots of harmful things. Neither group will resile from those things due to any action or statement made by the NUS; and there is no more sense in comparing the two groups to determine which is 'worse' than there is in arguing who would win in a fight between Godzilla and King Kong.

So then I take it nobody who does not live in the area should have any opinion whatever on what happens there. How do you know that this group of students have not seriously considered the issue? Your poo-poo-ing of students being concerned with international politics has the effect of shoveling them into the furnace to be used later for cannon fodder. You just seem to think students cannot think or contribute anything at all. If an issue like this has the possible result of forcing them into the army to be a part of the battle, then it is clearly in the real of their prerogative to opine on the issue. Just saying.....

I am not talking about students; I am talking about the NUS. If you think that the NUS is genuinely representative of students in general in the UK, then you really don't know anything about the NUS.

By pooh-poohing the NUS, I am actively engaged in preventing them from making the false claim that they speak for students in general - which claim, if believed, has the real prospect of concealing the actual opinions of the student body.

My experience is that the leadership of the NUS cannot (or will not) think, and that their contributions to almost every situation do more harm than good; The only area where they have any credibility is as a lobby group for the rights of the students they supposedly represent. If they have something to say on tuition fees; university entrance requirements; examination rules; student loans; or any of the other things that affect the student body, then by all means take their opinion into account.

If the boss of the Australian Plumbers and Gasfitters union declares that his organisation is opposed to the actions of the government of Burkino Faso in changing the election term limit for their presidency, then he is demonstrating that he doesn't understand what his job IS, and that he has mistaken his personal opinion for that of his membership - on an issue about which his membership cares not one whit. He is entitled to his opinion, but he is not entitled to claim that it is that of the plumbers and gasfitters of Australia. What the NUS leadership has done here is much the same - they are expressing their personal opinions on a matter outside their organisation's remit, and are attempting to hijack the democratic principle by pretending that their membership supports them (or even gives a flying fuck).

 

[fromderinside]

Sheesh. A post filled with meme's and 30 year memories, and stuff like that.

As for being representatives of British students I'd like to see a few real universities showcased. So I went to their site. http://www.nus.org.uk/en/students-unions/ .. and there they were Sheffield, Bristol, and Mid Cheshire U's centrally featured. Wow. Who the hell are these places?

Think I'm siding with bilby on this one.

 

[Togo]

As for being representatives of British students I'd like to see a few real universities showcased. So I went to their site. http://www.nus.org.uk/en/students-unions/ .. and there they were Sheffield, Bristol, and Mid Cheshire U's centrally featured. Wow. Who the hell are these places?

Sheffield and Bristol are major UK universities. Mid Cheshire is the new name of Hartford polytechnic, which like all former polys has now gained university status.

The NUS were a largely impotent fringe organisation in my university, which had other more powerful student organisations and political groups at the university level, and mini-unions at the college level.

My experience of student politics is that while easy to mock and misquote, it actually makes a lot more sense if you understand the context and what is going on. If, for example, condemnation of ISIS is being used as an excuse to harass Muslim students, or organisations, then students might well hesitate to lend their voice to that, even by implication.

One common political tactic is to take a cause that is popular with your opponents, such as resisting oppression, and link it to one your own causes, such as support for Israel or condemnation of Islam. You then throw them both out to a public forum, say this one, and pretend that your opponents are tying themselves in knots trying to resolve the conflict. It's one of those cynical moves that's all about trying to spin those you dislike as stupid or ineffectual by misrepresenting the truth. The NUS students we're citing almost certainly had very clear views about why they voted they way they did, the two votes weren't the same group or the same individuals, and the political context was almost certainly more important than the issue itself. We can laugh and joke about stupid students, and we might not be that far from the mark in practice, but let's not pretend we're doing anything but judging them in terms that, when applied to any other group, would be grotesquely unfair.

All for the sake of spreading a little disinformation, a little bit of noise, around the increasingly routine condemnation of the Israeli Occupation of Palestine. If the issue could be defended on its merits, it would be. If students were as stupid as we're making them out to be, the case could be without misrepresentation. Instead, we're treated to this kind desperate pleading. It's kinda sad, y'know?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

http://nypost.com/2015/06/07/as-isis-brutalizes-women-a-pathetic-feminist-silence/



Seems like a clueless statement to me. No one will take what you say seriously.

The Israeli government has kidnapped and tortured and killed more than ISIS.

[Citation needed]

 

[untermensche]

The Israeli government has kidnapped and tortured and killed more than ISIS.

[Citation needed]

You're full of shit. You have no desire to look at sources. You have avoided these truths with all your might.

Israel is able to hide many of it's atrocities. Despite that, the things that can be seen are not very pretty.

“[Palestinian children are] systematically subject to physical and verbal violence, humiliation, painful restraints, hooding of the head and face in a sack, threatened with death, physical violence, and sexual assault against themselves or members of their family, restricted access to toilet, food and water.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/10135157/Israel-furious-at-UN-report-detailing-torture-of-Palestinian-children.html

Israeli human rights organisation B'Tselem acknowledged in its report that 105 torture methods are used against Palestinian detainees which are considered serious violations of human rights.

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/14957-torture-in-israeli-prisons-200-methods-used-against-palestinian-prisoners

I could go on a long time with similar sources describing Israeli torture.

 

[TSwizzle]

The Israeli government has kidnapped and tortured and killed more than ISIS.

Source please.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

[Citation needed]

You're full of shit. You have no desire to look at sources. You have avoided these truths with all your might.

We see some pretty high numbers of people brutalized by ISIS. Where are there even claims of that many by Israel? You can't go simply counting all the Palestinians, most of them do not suffer at Israeli hands.

Israel is able to hide many of it's atrocities. Despite that, the things that can be seen are not very pretty.

“[Palestinian children are] systematically subject to physical and verbal violence, humiliation, painful restraints, hooding of the head and face in a sack, threatened with death, physical violence, and sexual assault against themselves or members of their family, restricted access to toilet, food and water.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/10135157/Israel-furious-at-UN-report-detailing-torture-of-Palestinian-children.html

Israeli human rights organisation B'Tselem acknowledged in its report that 105 torture methods are used against Palestinian detainees which are considered serious violations of human rights.

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/14957-torture-in-israeli-prisons-200-methods-used-against-palestinian-prisoners

I could go on a long time with similar sources describing Israeli torture.

B'Tselem is not credible. They make it as hard as possible to see why things actually happened in their data, pretending that people who died with a terrorist were total innocents.

 

[untermensche]

B'Tselem is not credible. They make it as hard as possible to see why things actually happened in their data, pretending that people who died with a terrorist were total innocents.

No. YOU are not credible.

Israel has been kidnapping and torturing and killing for decades.

ISIS has a long way to go to catch up to Israeli brutality.

And of course both pale in comparison to the brutality of something like the US invasion of Iraq. In fact ISIS is a creation of US brutality.

It is the crop the US has sown over the last decade.

 

[EricK]

B'Tselem is not credible. They make it as hard as possible to see why things actually happened in their data, pretending that people who died with a terrorist were total innocents.

No. YOU are not credible.

Israel has been kidnapping and torturing and killing for decades.

ISIS has a long way to go to catch up to Israeli brutality.

And of course both pale in comparison to the brutality of something like the US invasion of Iraq. In fact ISIS is a creation of US brutality.

It is the crop the US has sown over the last decade.

But I'm guessing you wouldn't argue that Israel, in it's current form, is a creation of the Arab aggressiveness following Israel's founding.

 

[Jayjay]

Neither of those sources seems to list hard numbers. Of course, Israel has been messing about with West Bank since 1967. ISIS has just had a few years run so far. it would be more fair to compare, say, people tortured or killed by Israel in last five years vs. ISIS.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

No. YOU are not credible.

Israel has been kidnapping and torturing and killing for decades.

ISIS has a long way to go to catch up to Israeli brutality.

And of course both pale in comparison to the brutality of something like the US invasion of Iraq. In fact ISIS is a creation of US brutality.

It is the crop the US has sown over the last decade.

But I'm guessing you wouldn't argue that Israel, in it's current form, is a creation of the Arab aggressiveness following Israel's founding.

It is to some extent. But those who placed Israel there are equally to blame, if not more so. It isn't like the result wasn't obvious.

 

[Togo]

Neither of those sources seems to list hard numbers. Of course, Israel has been messing about with West Bank since 1967. ISIS has just had a few years run so far. it would be more fair to compare, say, people tortured or killed by Israel in last five years vs. ISIS.

I dunno. ISIS is about terror now, dramatic actions, and milking the propaganda angle. We don't know what they'll down into or how sustainable their present push is. It's not like they're really planning a state in detail, or building up long term institutions. Israel is much more about the slow grind, trying to reduce their neighbours to a mire of futile barbarism while slowly expanding their own borders. It's really two very different kinds of oppression. Isis wants flashy instant results, while Israel is more about ethnic cleansing in the longer term.

 

[whichphilosophy]

No. YOU are not credible.

Israel has been kidnapping and torturing and killing for decades.

ISIS has a long way to go to catch up to Israeli brutality.

And of course both pale in comparison to the brutality of something like the US invasion of Iraq. In fact ISIS is a creation of US brutality.

It is the crop the US has sown over the last decade.

But I'm guessing you wouldn't argue that Israel, in it's current form, is a creation of the Arab aggressiveness following Israel's founding.

If they parties were sane enough they could have a one state power sharing union. Jewish innovation would boom the area for the tourism and high tech from Israel.

 

[Jayjay]

But I'm guessing you wouldn't argue that Israel, in it's current form, is a creation of the Arab aggressiveness following Israel's founding.

If they parties were sane enough they could have a one state power sharing union. Jewish innovation would boom the area for the tourism and high tech from Israel.

And what do the Arabs bring to the table? Cheap labor?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

B'Tselem is not credible. They make it as hard as possible to see why things actually happened in their data, pretending that people who died with a terrorist were total innocents.

No. YOU are not credible.

Israel has been kidnapping and torturing and killing for decades.

ISIS has a long way to go to catch up to Israeli brutality.

And of course both pale in comparison to the brutality of something like the US invasion of Iraq. In fact ISIS is a creation of US brutality.

It is the crop the US has sown over the last decade.

Here's what life under ISIS is really like:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-32831854

- - - Updated - - -

Neither of those sources seems to list hard numbers. Of course, Israel has been messing about with West Bank since 1967. ISIS has just had a few years run so far. it would be more fair to compare, say, people tortured or killed by Israel in last five years vs. ISIS.

I think he must be counting all the people in Gaza as being tortured--but by that standard the people in ISIS-occupied lands also have to be counted. They're suffering far more than the Gazans.