South Carolina Flag Debate

[Tom Sawyer]

tbf the word "racist" isn't in that song

No the word Slaveocrats is.

It really sucks that this isn't a word which has survived in common usage over the past couple of centuries. It's a cool word, but I guess there just isn't much use for it in the absence of wealthy slavers running a government.

Oh well, I suppose that even ending slavery has its downsides.

 

[maxparrish]

As I have reminded posters - racism is not synonymous with slavery. One can be a racist (as the majority were in the North) but still oppose chattel slavery and its denial of liberty.

 

[Horatio Parker]

As I have reminded posters - racism is not synonymous with slavery. One can be a racist (as the majority were in the North) but still oppose chattel slavery and its denial of liberty.

But one must be a racist to support Jim Crow. Surely you're not suggesting that Confederate sympathizers support slavery but not segregation?

 

[ksen]

As I have reminded posters - racism is not synonymous with slavery. One can be a racist (as the majority were in the North) but still oppose chattel slavery and its denial of liberty.

Can you illustrate that with a Venn diagram?

 

[ronburgundy]

By that argument...

The US flag was made and flown by Revolutionaries who kept and owned large numbers of slaves, despite discussions at the time that this was in contradiction of their revolutionary ideology. Slavery was based on racism. Regardless of the "romance" and "culture" of the USA, or the ignorant (wilful or otherwise) of their current proponents, that flag is the symbol of a racist. No amount of spin, ad hominems, or plan ole bullshit can change that fundamental fact.

.. so, take down both flags?

Good point...and as noted earlier, both flags are usually flown on the same flagpole by said "racist" individuals. Yep, time to remove both flags...correct?

No, it is a pathetically invalid point that has already been thoroughly refuted in this thread, when the Swedish flag was used for comparison. In short, the US flag was not specifically created to represent the founding of a coalition designed specially and most centrally to preserve the practice of slavery.
The valid comparison is that the Confederate flags (battle or otherwise) are to the US flag, what the Nazi flag is to the German flag that both preceded and followed the 15 years of Nazi reign. Nonsense arguments rationalizing the Confederate flags "other meanings" are as absurd as if the similar arguments tried to rationalize flying the Nazi flag over modern German government buildings to "honor" that part of history.

 

[maxparrish]

How many Betsy Ross flags fly over UK government buildings again?

The British flag is a part of the one-time British identity, the US flag was never a part of the British identity.

To that end even a Confederate flag supporter would not expect a Union state to adorn a flagpole with the Confederate flag.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

How many Betsy Ross flags fly over UK government buildings again?

The British flag is a part of the one-time British identity, the US flag was never a part of the British identity.

To that end even a Confederate flag supporter would not expect a Union state to adorn a flagpole with the Confederate flag.

When SC rejoined the union, it became, be definition, a UNION state.

 

[ksen]

How many Betsy Ross flags fly over UK government buildings again?

The British flag is a part of the one-time British identity, the US flag was never a part of the British identity.

Agreed. And the Confederate flag was never part of the US identity.

To that end even a Confederate flag supporter would not expect a Union state to adorn a flagpole with the Confederate flag.

We're all union states now.

 

[Rhea]

Confederate battle flags were made and flown by Confederates who wished to secede from the US because, among other things, they wished to keep slavery. Slavery was based on racism. Regardless of the "romance" and "culture" or the ignorance (willful or otherwise) of their current proponents, those flags are a symbol of a racist. No amount of spin, ad hominems or plain ole bullshit can change that fundamental fact.

By that argument...

The US flag was made and flown by Revolutionaries who kept and owned large numbers of slaves, despite discussions at the time that this was in contradiction of their revolutionary ideology. Slavery was based on racism. Regardless of the "romance" and "culture" of the USA, or the ignorant (wilful or otherwise) of their current proponents, that flag is the symbol of a racist. No amount of spin, ad hominems, or plan ole bullshit can change that fundamental fact.

.. so, take down both flags?

The US flag as it appears today was not ever used in the revolution. Of course, it having 50 stars, which obviously represents the growth of the country through many trials and changes.

Also, the main purpose of the revolution was not _in_order_ to maintain slaves. History is obvious that there was much struggle over it and division, as you note. No such division existed in the confederacy.

So they absolutely do not represent the same thing and never have.

- - - Updated - - -

I really don't think this is true, and think you are embarking on some revisionist history here.

Imma just get out my popcorn and watch the Australian tell the guy who JUST SAID he had an actual burning cross planted in his yard that he needs to be schooled in who knows what about Southern History. Hang on, wanna get the butter added...

Slavery and racist were certainly a big part of why the south fought the civil war, but I think there was more to it than just that. They wanted independence. They were not too removed from the revolutionary war, and this was to a lot of them very much more of the same. They had a distant power trying to tell them what they can and can not do, and no that wasn't just about keeping slaves.

Don't forget to read the documents of the secessionists to see if this matches.

You in the USA treat your poor pretty badly, granted not on the level of slavery, but pretty badly. No universal health care. The 0.01% own so much and the 99.9% so little. Your government with the gerrymandering and other problems appears corrupt and hurtful to your people. But if a foregin power dwarfed you in power (maybe an alien invasion or something?) were to declare war on you and attack you,

whoops! Go back and check your history books on who declared war and did the attacking...

you may just band together under a flag we all see to represent all these negative things about the United States, for the sake of your group (tribalism comes into play here), banding against that foreign power that wants to control you.

... and your desire to hold slaves

Confederate battle flags were made and flown by Confederates who wished to secede from the US because, among other things, they wished to keep slavery.

This I can agree with.

You should also agree that it was the main thing. Again, read the cornerstone speech of the secessionist leaders.

 

[maxparrish]

Good point...and as noted earlier, both flags are usually flown on the same flagpole by said "racist" individuals. Yep, time to remove both flags...correct?

No, it is a pathetically invalid point that has already been thoroughly refuted in this thread, when the Swedish flag was used for comparison. In short, the US flag was not specifically created to represent the founding of a coalition designed specially and most centrally to preserve the practice of slavery.
The valid comparison is that the Confederate flags (battle or otherwise) are to the US flag, what the Nazi flag is to the German flag that both preceded and followed the 15 years of Nazi reign. Nonsense arguments rationalizing the Confederate flags "other meanings" are as absurd as if the similar arguments tried to rationalize flying the Nazi flag over modern German government buildings to "honor" that part of history.

And your objection was already demolished in my prior post on how the comparison is similar, but not fully apt. The US flag was created to represent a new people in a nation-state; one that expoused liberty BUT was still for chattel slavery. The Confederate flag also represented the people of a new nation-state, with exactly the same exception for chattel slavery (in fact the Articles of Confederation were almost identical to the Constitution). they did not 'change their minds' during the war (unlike the North). Both flags at one time represented many interests and values, including that of a tolerance for slavery.

The Nazi flag did not represent a new people, its express purpose was to represent a new ideology of racial supremacy and a rejection of all forms of liberty and democracy. It's meaning is not rooted in regionalism or states rights or traditional values, but purely in its totally new (and newly evil) ideological and social system.

That said, it might also be argued that the South should have the old US flag, and the North (after the emancipation proclamation) should have adopted a new and radically different flag to represent these new values.

 

[ksen]

Hey max, why are you all of a sudden supporting a Democrat flag?

 

[ksen]

Jefferson Davis: Democrat who went to Cuba for health troubles . . . lionized by 21st century republicans.

:whodathunkit?:

 

[untermensche]

The funny thing is the Confederate flag was created at a time when Southern culture was not only segregated by race, but by class as well.

And the lower classes were despised and abused just like blacks were.

But today, you see many in the lower economic classes flying a flag which represents oppression of people like them.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

How many Betsy Ross flags fly over UK government buildings again?

The British flag is a part of the one-time British identity, the US flag was never a part of the British identity.

To that end even a Confederate flag supporter would not expect a Union state to adorn a flagpole with the Confederate flag.

That is unless the flag was captured in battle and displayed in our Capitol's rotunda.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

The funny thing is the Confederate flag was created at a time when Southern culture was not only segregated by race, but by class as well.

And the lower classes were despised and abused just like blacks were.

But today, you see many in the lower economic classes flying a flag which represents oppression of people like them.

Ya, but it also represents more oppression of people who aren't like them. That lets them know that they're not at the bottom.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

The funny thing is the Confederate flag was created at a time when Southern culture was not only segregated by race, but by class as well.

And the lower classes were despised and abused just like blacks were.

In a few ways worse. True, I could only enter the Big House through the back door, but someone thought of as "poor white trash" wasn't coming in through ANY door.

But today, you see many in the lower economic classes flying a flag which represents oppression of people like them.

You can commit any atrocity known to humanity to a member of the majority, provided he is allow the false privilege of saying "As bad as it is, at least I'm not a member of the minority."

This is the ultimate irony of a system of group supremacy, it affords and perpetuates the degradation of those truest believers and defenders of its existence.

 

[DrZoidberg]

The funny thing is the Confederate flag was created at a time when Southern culture was not only segregated by race, but by class as well.

And the lower classes were despised and abused just like blacks were.

But today, you see many in the lower economic classes flying a flag which represents oppression of people like them.

But isn´t that an endemic problem of USA in general? Class-awarness in USA seems to be close to zero. I´m not saying USA should be more socialist. But a start would be to understand what the socialist project is all about and what it´s goals are. That understanding seems almost entirely lacking in USA.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

As I have reminded posters - racism is not synonymous with slavery. One can be a racist (as the majority were in the North) but still oppose chattel slavery and its denial of liberty.

Can you illustrate that with a Venn diagram?

Venn Diagram

 

[ksen]

Class-awarness in USA seems to be close to zero.

We're very aware of class in the US.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Class-awarness in USA seems to be close to zero.

We're very aware of class in the US.

Well... not aware enough to do much about it. It seems to be a pretty dead issue politically. Nothing ever happens. That´s how it looks from over this side of the Atlantic anyway.