South Carolina Flag Debate

[fromderinside]

There is no "missing premise". Did you read my original post?

But let's pretend, hypothetically, that all those reasons Max listed were 100% correct...

Not one of them is a good reason for the state itself to be flying the flag No northern state flies a different flag at their Capitol building to honor Yankee heritage. What flag, besides the California state flag and the US flag, fly at government buildings in Los Angeles?

The confederate battle flag is not a state flag, and therefore should not be flown by the state itself as if it were... a state flag. The confederate battle flag sure as hell isn't the national flag either (except in the warped minds of a few who still refuse to believe the south lost the civil war).

Maybe I should have said, "hidden premise."

For instance, we know it's not, "only state flags should be flown by the state," since you allow exception for the US flag--unless you think the US flag is flown as if it's a state flag.


On a side note, do you think the US flag is flown as if it's a state flag? I don't think the Confederate flag is flown as if it's a state flag. I think it's flown as a flag. And, it's flown as state flags are flown--just as the US flag is flown as state flags are flown--or most any flags for that matter.

I'm not arguing for or against your position--just trying to ascertain the premise. There is something about the US flag that is different than the confederate flag, yet neither are state flags (and both are flown as flags are flown) (and neither are flown as if they are state flags), so it's not the case that no non-state flags should be flown by the state--at least not gleaned as such from your argument with the hidden premise (or missing premise by virtue of it not being explicitly stated).

Please. To much parsing. A flag is a flag and only those flags not offensive to targeted minorities should be flown. Other flags should be reserved for such as parades of this or that sort.

 

[fast]

There is no "missing premise". Did you read my original post?

But let's pretend, hypothetically, that all those reasons Max listed were 100% correct...

Not one of them is a good reason for the state itself to be flying the flag No northern state flies a different flag at their Capitol building to honor Yankee heritage. What flag, besides the California state flag and the US flag, fly at government buildings in Los Angeles?

The confederate battle flag is not a state flag, and therefore should not be flown by the state itself as if it were... a state flag. The confederate battle flag sure as hell isn't the national flag either (except in the warped minds of a few who still refuse to believe the south lost the civil war).

Maybe I should have said, "hidden premise."

For instance, we know it's not, "only state flags should be flown by the state," since you allow exception for the US flag--unless you think the US flag is flown as if it's a state flag.


On a side note, do you think the US flag is flown as if it's a state flag? I don't think the Confederate flag is flown as if it's a state flag. I think it's flown as a flag. And, it's flown as state flags are flown--just as the US flag is flown as state flags are flown--or most any flags for that matter.

I'm not arguing for or against your position--just trying to ascertain the premise. There is something about the US flag that is different than the confederate flag, yet neither are state flags (and both are flown as flags are flown) (and neither are flown as if they are state flags), so it's not the case that no non-state flags should be flown by the state--at least not gleaned as such from your argument with the hidden premise (or missing premise by virtue of it not being explicitly stated).

Please. To much parsing. A flag is a flag and only those flags not offensive to targeted minorities should be flown. Other flags should be reserved for such as parades of this or that sort.

I don't think so. She would object (I would imagine) to having most non-offensive flags flown by the state as well, so it's not just a matter of offensiveness. There is a principle at play, and I'm trying to lull it out.

 

[fromderinside]

Please. To much parsing. A flag is a flag and only those flags not offensive to targeted minorities should be flown. Other flags should be reserved for such as parades of this or that sort.

I don't think so. She would object (I would imagine) to having most non-offensive flags flown by the state as well, so it's not just a matter of offensiveness. There is a principle at play, and I'm trying to lull it out.

Every flag is offensive to some interest group. The operative element in my post is 'targeted' by which I mean those who can kick up enough of a fuss to attract attention outside their own municipality. That said. I think RavenSky would pass.

 

[fast]

There is a governmental link between the country flag and state flag. Perhaps a county flag would be a permissible non-state flag. So, an underlying premise might be: no non-governmental flag should be flown by the state, the confederate flag is not a governmental flag; therefore the confederate flag should not be flown by the state.

 

[RavenSky]

This thread, however, is specific to flying the confederate battle flag itself - not a representation of one on a different flag - and it that I stand firm on my position. The confederate battle flag is not a state flag, and therefore should not be flown by the state itself as if it were. This is the very very easy issue to resolve. Take it down.

Then the thread is at an end since a battle flag within a state flag is still a battle flag (they are not different) and all it entails to modernity. Take them down.

I do agree with you, but I think question of legitimacy and "heritage" has slightly more validity for a state flag than for a flag that is neither a state flag nor the national flag yet being flown as if it were. For state flags (and seals) that include the confederate battle flag, then we get into the question of whether it is purely a representation of racism (I say "yes, it is") vs some claim of "heritage" like the bear on the California flag.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

This thread, however, is specific to flying the confederate battle flag itself - not a representation of one on a different flag - and it that I stand firm on my position. The confederate battle flag is not a state flag, and therefore should not be flown by the state itself as if it were. This is the very very easy issue to resolve. Take it down.

Then the thread is at an end since a battle flag within a state flag is still a battle flag (they are not different) and all it entails to modernity.

Not it isn't. It's a state flag that includes the Confederate "stars and bars" symbol in its official iconography. The people who designed and voted to make official those state flags knew what they were doing when they did it.

In this particular sub-thread, the point is that every state in the south could just as easily go the other way and have their legislatures vote to adopt the Confederate battle flag as their official state flag, (differentiated, say, by the stat's initial in the bottom right corner). That would be their way of both legitimizing and endorsing the Confederate battle flag and whatever else it supposedly stands for.

The real question -- and the issue of the broader thread, in fact -- is why they should decide to ban the battle flag instead of rallying in support behind it? The broader subtext, which certain posters here fail to grasp, is "Why should black people everywhere have to suck it up and tolerate the public display and glorification of what they know PERFECTLY WELL is a symbol of white supremacism?"

State governments, organizations and politicians all over the south are distancing themselves from the Confederate flag en masse. They're doing this because they know what it means -- they have always known what it means -- and it is apparently the consensus in the south that the battle flag, whatever else it might have represented, isn't nearly as important as all the baggage attached to it.

 

[RavenSky]

There is no "missing premise". Did you read my original post?

But let's pretend, hypothetically, that all those reasons Max listed were 100% correct...

Not one of them is a good reason for the state itself to be flying the flag No northern state flies a different flag at their Capitol building to honor Yankee heritage. What flag, besides the California state flag and the US flag, fly at government buildings in Los Angeles?

The confederate battle flag is not a state flag, and therefore should not be flown by the state itself as if it were... a state flag. The confederate battle flag sure as hell isn't the national flag either (except in the warped minds of a few who still refuse to believe the south lost the civil war).

Maybe I should have said, "hidden premise."

For instance, we know it's not, "only state flags should be flown by the state," since you allow exception for the US flag--unless you think the US flag is flown as if it's a state flag.


On a side note, do you think the US flag is flown as if it's a state flag? I don't think the Confederate flag is flown as if it's a state flag. I think it's flown as a flag. And, it's flown as state flags are flown--just as the US flag is flown as state flags are flown--or most any flags for that matter.

I'm not arguing for or against your position--just trying to ascertain the premise. There is something about the US flag that is different than the confederate flag, yet neither are state flags (and both are flown as flags are flown) (and neither are flown as if they are state flags), so it's not the case that no non-state flags should be flown by the state--at least not gleaned as such from your argument with the hidden premise (or missing premise by virtue of it not being explicitly stated).

The confederate battle flag is not representative of a state, nor of the country the state is in. Some counties and cities in the U.S. also have their own official flags, but we don't see those flown at the state capitol. We don't have regional flags. No one has ever tried to claim that the confederate battle flag is an official city, county, state or regional flag. They will talk about "heritage" and "tradition", but nowhere that I know of has any state, county or city adopted the confederate battle flag itself as their flag. (Yes, as noted previously, some places have incorporated parts of or depictions of the flag into their own flags. That is (imo) a separate argument as commented above)

My argument is simply that states do not (and should not) fly miscellaneous unofficial flags at their state capitols - not even "heritage" flags. Does the Texas state capitol continue to fly any of their "heritage" flags?



Do any of the state capitols in Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Kentucky, North Carolina, Alabama, etc. fly the flag of Appalachia?



Do any state capitols fly the New England flag of 1775?



I wonder if those who defend the flying of the confederate battle flag on government properties would mind having this one flown with it:

 

[RavenSky]

There is a governmental link between the country flag and state flag. Perhaps a county flag would be a permissible non-state flag. So, an underlying premise might be: no non-governmental flag should be flown by the state, the confederate flag is not a governmental flag; therefore the confederate flag should not be flown by the state.

Precisely.

Though I would not expect to see a city or county flag flow at the state level either, unless all of the cities/counties are represented.

 

[Mumbles]

There is a governmental link between the country flag and state flag. Perhaps a county flag would be a permissible non-state flag. So, an underlying premise might be: no non-governmental flag should be flown by the state, the confederate flag is not a governmental flag; therefore the confederate flag should not be flown by the state.

Precisely.

Though I would not expect to see a city or county flag flow at the state level either, unless all of the cities/counties are represented.

Neither would I.

Although, perhaps it's just that, where I've lived at least, the state Capitol and city hall have been separate buildings, so there was never a need to fly the city's flag at the state Capitol to begin with. And of course, the U.S. Flag always flew at both, higher than every other flag.

And that damn battle flag was understood to be a flag of treason for racial slavery, and was not flown at all.

 

[Mumbles]

And it looks like the debate is over, as the House just passed the Senate's bill to move the flag to a relic site, so it's going to Gov. Haley for her signature.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Wait, now, HERE is a clinching argument.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...e=390957&creativeASIN=B010J8A8C2&linkCode=as2

A Confederate Flag Turned Me Gay
Kindle Edition.

 

[laughing dog]

Well, SC did the right thing yesterday. Today the flag comes down from the state house.