From whom in the Black community should Kylie Jenner have sought permission to braid her hair?

[zorq]

Athena, For someone who portray's herself as "geting it" you seem awfully reluctant to offer specific verdicts on edge case examples that are confusing the rest of us. How can we be sure that you "get it" when you refuse to tell us us where the line that shall not be crossed really is?

Koreans take just about everything "sacred" about western weddings out of the ceremony and perform them anyway... Misappropriation or not?
Wearing mukluks without a "real connection" to Eskimo/Inuit culture... Misappropriation or not?
Wearing Samuri outfits without a "real connection" to Japanese martial arts or ethnicity... Misappropriation or not?
Participating in or conducting a Japanese tea ceremony wearing jeans and a T-Shirt .. Misappropriation or not?
An Irish National singing "God save the Queen" In England but deliberately singing it in B flat instead of G major as Elizabeth II insisted and all English people who care seem to agree... Misappropriation or not?
Women performing in Japanese Kabuki plays... Misappropriation or not?

Where is the line?
If the line sometimes involves the color of a person's skin or their gender, how is that line not racist or sexist? If the line is racist or sexist, shouldn't we be criticizing the line and it's advocates?

 

[Trausti]

I still don't understand the difference.

I would see EricK's post above on understanding identity politics. The key to remember is that Jenner is white and her accuser, despite the obvious European admixture, is black. Though having a trans-mother/father/whatever might give Jenner some extra pokemon social justice points, in the identity politics rubric black always trumps white. Always. Comprehending the criticism of Jenner is less important than accepting that Jenner, the white actor, is automatically guilty because she was accused by Stenberg, the black actor. Jenner is clearly in the wrong. See?

 

[AthenaAwakened]

For someone who portray's herself as "geting it" you seem awfully reluctant to offer specific verdicts on edge case examples that are confusing the rest of us. How can we be sure that you "get it" when you refuse to tell us us where the line that shall not be crossed really is?

Koreans take just about everything "sacred" about western weddings out of the ceremony and perform them anyway... Misappropriation or not?
Wearing mukluks without a "real connection" to Eskimo/Inuit culture... Misappropriation or not?
Wearing Samuri outfits without a "real connection" to Japanese martial arts or ethnicity... Misappropriation or not?
Participating in or conducting a Japanese tea ceremony wearing jeans and a T-Shirt .. Misappropriation or not?
An Irish National singing "God save the Queen" In England but deliberately singing it in B flat instead of G major as Elizabeth II insisted and all English people who care seem to agree... Misappropriation or not?
Women performing in Japanese Kabuki plays... Misappropriation or not?

Where is the line?
If the line sometimes involves the color of a person's skin or their gender, how is that line not racist or sexist? If the line is racist or sexist, shouldn't we be criticizing the line and it's advocates?

I don't have time to play "but what about the color fairy dragons' wings in the Ninth Realm on the planet Zandor?"

This was my general explanation.

AGAIN

"There are, broadly speaking, cultural appropriation, cultural appreciation, and cultural exchange. Cultural exchange is when both sides enter into relationship as equals and both sides give and take, and both sides benefit. Ex. When trade routes first open between countries. Cultural appreciation is when one engages in the cultural practices traditional to another group of people not as parody or commodity but in deference and as an act of respect. Ex. A business associate from another country in having dinner in your home and you cook dishes from her native country or you perform a ritual custom like the Japanese tea ceremony. And then there is cultural appropriation, which includes such things as using native cultures as sports mascots, having ghetto themed black-face parties, or stereotypical representations of Arabs in action films. What appropriations have in common is that they use the cultural archetype, ritual or artifact in a incorrect or even deliberately disrespectful way.

Now any combination of those three classifications can occur at the same time and both the borrower and the borrowie can get their signals crossed. Hence the contention."

WHAT SPECIFICALLY IN THE ABOVE STATEMENT DON'T OR WON'T YOU UNDERSTAND?

 

[zorq]

For someone who portray's herself as "geting it" you seem awfully reluctant to offer specific verdicts on edge case examples that are confusing the rest of us. How can we be sure that you "get it" when you refuse to tell us us where the line that shall not be crossed really is?

Koreans take just about everything "sacred" about western weddings out of the ceremony and perform them anyway... Misappropriation or not?
Wearing mukluks without a "real connection" to Eskimo/Inuit culture... Misappropriation or not?
Wearing Samuri outfits without a "real connection" to Japanese martial arts or ethnicity... Misappropriation or not?
Participating in or conducting a Japanese tea ceremony wearing jeans and a T-Shirt .. Misappropriation or not?
An Irish National singing "God save the Queen" In England but deliberately singing it in B flat instead of G major as Elizabeth II insisted and all English people who care seem to agree... Misappropriation or not?
Women performing in Japanese Kabuki plays... Misappropriation or not?

Where is the line?
If the line sometimes involves the color of a person's skin or their gender, how is that line not racist or sexist? If the line is racist or sexist, shouldn't we be criticizing the line and it's advocates?

I don't have time to play "but what about the color fairy dragons' wings in the Ninth Realm on the planet Zandor?"

This was my general explanation.

AGAIN

"There are, broadly speaking, cultural appropriation, cultural appreciation, and cultural exchange. Cultural exchange is when both sides enter into relationship as equals and both sides give and take, and both sides benefit. Ex. When trade routes first open between countries. Cultural appreciation is when one engages in the cultural practices traditional to another group of people not as parody or commodity but in deference and as an act of respect. Ex. A business associate from another country in having dinner in your home and you cook dishes from her native country or you perform a ritual custom like the Japanese tea ceremony. And then there is cultural appropriation, which includes such things as using native cultures as sports mascots, having ghetto themed black-face parties, or stereotypical representations of Arabs in action films. What appropriations have in common is that they use the cultural archetype, ritual or artifact in a incorrect or even deliberately disrespectful way.

Now any combination of those three classifications can occur at the same time and both the borrower and the borrowie can get their signals crossed. Hence the contention."

WHAT SPECIFICALLY IN THE ABOVE STATEMENT DON'T OR WON'T YOU UNDERSTAND?

Specifically all the parts where there are contradictions, confusions and ambiguities! Hense the probing questions to find the nuanced details that you refuse to describe! For example, how can I tell the difference between cultural exchange and cultural appropriation when the difference sometimes seems to be merely the number of people who are engaging in the activity?

Using your paragraph above as a guide, I must conclude that the fad of Western Wedding ceremonies in Korea should be offensive to Westerners because

1. It's certainly not cultural appreciation because the participants have no regard as to how the practice is seen by Western Eyes. 2. It's not cultural exchange because the participants have their own culturally equivalent ceremony and don't mind altering the Western version in ways that would be unthinkable to someone raised in a Western culture.
3. It is a cultural appropriation because of the very same unthinkable alterations mentioned in #2. For example, nobody in the audience of one of these ceremonies offers any respect to the bride and groom who stand at the front of the wedding hall. Throughout the wedding hall everyone pays no attention to the words of the person conducting the ceremony, they all talk to their neighbor, or answer their cell phone. They aren't legally allowed to smoke indoors anymore as of less than 10 years ago otherwise they would be doing that during the ceremony too. Other examples include no ring exchange during the ceremony and garrish displays of gaudy celebration like confetti blasting trumpets and incongruous K-pop blasting throughout the ceremony.

But I see no indication that Westerners are offended by Korean Western wedding ceremonies! There must be a disconnect here!
These universal rules that you understand but I don't are not working universally!

So either there are other factors you aren't communicating or you are simply wrong. I have tried to pry these other factors out of this conversation thread using edge case examples, but you refuse to offer additional rules. So is it possible that you are wrong?

And what of my last two questions in the previous post?

Regardig the line that distinguishes the three categories you mention: If the line sometimes involves the color of a person's skin or their gender, how is that line not racist or sexist? If the line is racist or sexist, shouldn't we be criticizing the line?

 

[Metaphor]

I still don't understand the difference.

Then I can't help you, son.

Some people will always get it, will always understand; and some people just can't or just won't.

BTW I noticed how you just left cultural exchange out of the quote. For someone who just can't understand, you sure know how to quote mine.

Jessayin'

I left it out because I understand what you mean by cultural exchange.

But you give examples of 'cultural appropriation' that are offensive, yet they're offensive because the intention is a parody or mockery of a culture, not because of the 'appropriation' itself.

But nobody has yet answered my questions that I've posed numerous times. Why is IA an outsider, an 'appropriationist', of hip hop culture, but AB is not?

 

[AthenaAwakened]

I don't have time to play "but what about the color fairy dragons' wings in the Ninth Realm on the planet Zandor?"

This was my general explanation.

AGAIN

"There are, broadly speaking, cultural appropriation, cultural appreciation, and cultural exchange. Cultural exchange is when both sides enter into relationship as equals and both sides give and take, and both sides benefit. Ex. When trade routes first open between countries. Cultural appreciation is when one engages in the cultural practices traditional to another group of people not as parody or commodity but in deference and as an act of respect. Ex. A business associate from another country in having dinner in your home and you cook dishes from her native country or you perform a ritual custom like the Japanese tea ceremony. And then there is cultural appropriation, which includes such things as using native cultures as sports mascots, having ghetto themed black-face parties, or stereotypical representations of Arabs in action films. What appropriations have in common is that they use the cultural archetype, ritual or artifact in a incorrect or even deliberately disrespectful way.

Now any combination of those three classifications can occur at the same time and both the borrower and the borrowie can get their signals crossed. Hence the contention."

WHAT SPECIFICALLY IN THE ABOVE STATEMENT DON'T OR WON'T YOU UNDERSTAND?

Specifically all the parts where there are contradictions, confusions and ambiguities! Hense the probing questions to find the nuanced details that you refuse to describe! For example, how can I tell the difference between cultural exchange and cultural appropriation when the difference sometimes seems to be merely the number of people who are engaging in the activity?

Using your paragraph above as a guide, I must conclude that the fad of Western Wedding ceremonies in Korea should be offensive to Westerners

I doubt you must but I am sure you will. Please go on

because

1. It's certainly not cultural appreciation because the participants have no regard as to how the practice is seen by Western Eyes.

And you know this how? Have you polled wedding participants?

2. It's not cultural exchange because the participants have their own culturally equivalent ceremony and don't mind altering the Western version in ways that would be unthinkable to someone raised in a Western culture.

Where did you pull that from? I have a guess, but why don't you tell me where you think you pulled that from.

3. It is a cultural appropriation because of the very same unthinkable alterations mentioned in #2. For example, nobody in the audience of one of these ceremonies offers any respect to the bride and groom who stand at the front of the wedding hall. Throughout the wedding hall everyone pays no attention to the words of the person conducting the ceremony, they all talk to their neighbor, or answer their cell phone. They aren't legally allowed to smoke indoors anymore as of less than 10 years ago otherwise they would be doing that during the ceremony too. Other examples include no ring exchange during the ceremony and garrish displays of gaudy celebration like confetti blasting trumpets and incongruous K-pop blasting throughout the ceremony.

But I see no indication that Westerners are offended by Korean Western wedding ceremonies! There must be a disconnect here!
These universal rules that you understand but I don't are not working universally!

So either there are other factors you aren't communicating or you are simply wrong. I have tried to pry these other factors out of this conversation thread using edge case examples, but you refuse to offer additional rules. So is it possible that you are wrong?

And what of my last two questions in the previous post?

Regardig the line that distinguishes the three categories you mention: If the line sometimes involves the color of a person's skin or their gender, how is that line not racist or sexist? If the line is racist or sexist, shouldn't we be criticizing the line?

This is just sad.

 

[zorq]

1. It's certainly not cultural appreciation because the participants have no regard as to how the practice is seen by Western Eyes.

And you know this how? Have you polled wedding participants?

I've been to two wedding ceremonies in Korea as the only western participant there and nobody asked me. It's not a formal poll, but if anyone there was at all interested, it might have come up.

2. It's not cultural exchange because the participants have their own culturally equivalent ceremony and don't mind altering the Western version in ways that would be unthinkable to someone raised in a Western culture.

Where did you pull that from? I have a guess, but why don't you tell me where you think you pulled that from.

Keep reading the post to find out....
What about blasting K-pop with sexually provocative and sometimes violent lyrics during a wedding ceremony so loud that you can't hear the minister/ wedding conductor sounds like something that's part of Western wedding culture?

3. It is a cultural appropriation because of the very same unthinkable alterations mentioned in #2. For example, nobody in the audience of one of these ceremonies offers any respect to the bride and groom who stand at the front of the wedding hall. Throughout the wedding hall everyone pays no attention to the words of the person conducting the ceremony, they all talk to their neighbor, or answer their cell phone. They aren't legally allowed to smoke indoors anymore as of less than 10 years ago otherwise they would be doing that during the ceremony too. Other examples include no ring exchange during the ceremony and garrish displays of gaudy celebration like confetti blasting trumpets and incongruous K-pop blasting throughout the ceremony.

But I see no indication that Westerners are offended by Korean Western wedding ceremonies! There must be a disconnect here!
These universal rules that you understand but I don't are not working universally!

So either there are other factors you aren't communicating or you are simply wrong. I have tried to pry these other factors out of this conversation thread using edge case examples, but you refuse to offer additional rules. So is it possible that you are wrong?

And what of my last two questions in the previous post?

Regarding the line that distinguishes the three categories you mention: If the line sometimes involves the color of a person's skin or their gender, how is that line not racist or sexist? If the line is racist or sexist, shouldn't we be criticizing the line?

This is just sad.

Yep. So sad that you can't give me even an up or down verdict on a single real world non-hypothetical phenomenon despite your *special* knowledge of cultural propriety.

If all of this is so easy and obvious for you then answering questions like "Misappropriation or not?" should take you no more than 1 second to answer. But you don't.

I ask you a question about racism and sexism, two topics that I know you have a great deal of interest in but you refuse to answer them because ..... ??? They make you uncomfortable?

So sad.

 

[bilby]

...something so sacred to English speaking people who use Google that when I type in the word 'sanctity' into google 'of marriage' is the number 2 autofill suggestion right behind 'of life'?
...

I think you have misunderstood the meanings of these phrases.

'Sanctity' means 'My right to bully everyone into accepting my irrational position'.

So 'Sanctity of life' means 'My right to bully people for wanting an abortion'; and 'Sanctity of marriage' means 'My right to bully people for being homosexual'.

Those phrases are only tangentially linked to the actual concepts of 'life' or 'marriage'.

When someone Googles 'Sanctity of Marriage', she is most likely looking for information that her third husband can use in his next sermon on the evils that arise from the recent SCOTUS equality ruling. She doesn't care what Koreans do, as long as their names aren't Adam and Steve.

 

[zorq]

...something so sacred to English speaking people who use Google that when I type in the word 'sanctity' into google 'of marriage' is the number 2 autofill suggestion right behind 'of life'?
...

I think you have misunderstood the meanings of these phrases.

'Sanctity' means 'My right to bully everyone into accepting my irrational position'.

So 'Sanctity of life' means 'My right to bully people for wanting an abortion'; and 'Sanctity of marriage' means 'My right to bully people for being homosexual'.

Those phrases are only tangentially linked to the actual concepts of 'life' or 'marriage'.

When someone Googles 'Sanctity of Marriage', she is most likely looking for information that her third husband can use in his next sermon on the evils that arise from the recent SCOTUS equality ruling. She doesn't care what Koreans do, as long as their names aren't Adam and Steve.

You may be right, but certainly there is SOME importance associated with marriage in western cultures. Would you say that marriage isn't an important tradition in western cultures? (which was my point)

If there is anything that Western cultures consider even close to "sacred" that isn't marriage, what would that be?

PS. I would like to retract part of my previous post to Athena. Koreans will usually NOT have K-pop with violent lyrics playing in the background, if there are any violent or racially insensitive lyrics playing during Korean Western wedding ceremony, they will be songs by Western artists usually in English and the vast majority of the congregation will not understand their meaning. It will also only usually happen without the knowledge of the bride and groom. Sorry for exaggerating. But lyrics with sexual innuendo are still fairly common.

 

[laughing dog]

These universal rules that you understand but I don't are not working universally!

That is because you are confusing definitions with rules. AA defined cultural appropriation. Your descriptions could be cultural appropriation or cultural assimilation or nothing at all because they lacked relevant information of intent, etc... For example, it is pretty clear your example of Koreans incorporating Western ideas into weddings is not cultural appropriation. There is no intent of disrespect and Westerners do not seem to care at all about those actions.

 

[EricK]

I

These universal rules that you understand but I don't are not working universally!

That is because you are confusing definitions with rules. AA defined cultural appropriation. Your descriptions could be cultural appropriation or cultural assimilation or nothing at all because they lacked relevant information of intent, etc... For example, it is pretty clear your example of Koreans incorporating Western ideas into weddings is not cultural appropriation. There is no intent of disrespect and Westerners do not seem to care at all about those actions.

There is almost never any intention of disrespect in the cases where people are accused of cultural appropriation. Indeed the cultural items are "appropriated" because the "appropriator" likes them and thinks they look/sound/taste etc good.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

I

That is because you are confusing definitions with rules. AA defined cultural appropriation. Your descriptions could be cultural appropriation or cultural assimilation or nothing at all because they lacked relevant information of intent, etc... For example, it is pretty clear your example of Koreans incorporating Western ideas into weddings is not cultural appropriation. There is no intent of disrespect and Westerners do not seem to care at all about those actions.

There is almost never any intention of disrespect in the cases where people are accused of cultural appropriation. Indeed the cultural items are "appropriated" because the "appropriator" likes them and thinks they look/sound/taste etc good.

Here is what I said,

What appropriations have in common is that they use the cultural archetype, ritual or artifact in a incorrect or even deliberately disrespectful way.

See the word incorrect?

I thought you could.

There is no doubt that the appropriator likes the items, it's whether they like the originator or not that is in the bone of contention. White folks at the Cotton Club liked jazz, likes Duke Ellington, and also liked segregation.

- - - Updated - - -

And you know this how? Have you polled wedding participants?

I've been to two wedding ceremonies in Korea as the only western participant there and nobody asked me. It's not a formal poll, but if anyone there was at all interested, it might have come up.

2. It's not cultural exchange because the participants have their own culturally equivalent ceremony and don't mind altering the Western version in ways that would be unthinkable to someone raised in a Western culture.

Where did you pull that from? I have a guess, but why don't you tell me where you think you pulled that from.

Keep reading the post to find out....
What about blasting K-pop with sexually provocative and sometimes violent lyrics during a wedding ceremony so loud that you can't hear the minister/ wedding conductor sounds like something that's part of Western wedding culture?

3. It is a cultural appropriation because of the very same unthinkable alterations mentioned in #2. For example, nobody in the audience of one of these ceremonies offers any respect to the bride and groom who stand at the front of the wedding hall. Throughout the wedding hall everyone pays no attention to the words of the person conducting the ceremony, they all talk to their neighbor, or answer their cell phone. They aren't legally allowed to smoke indoors anymore as of less than 10 years ago otherwise they would be doing that during the ceremony too. Other examples include no ring exchange during the ceremony and garrish displays of gaudy celebration like confetti blasting trumpets and incongruous K-pop blasting throughout the ceremony.

But I see no indication that Westerners are offended by Korean Western wedding ceremonies! There must be a disconnect here!
These universal rules that you understand but I don't are not working universally!

So either there are other factors you aren't communicating or you are simply wrong. I have tried to pry these other factors out of this conversation thread using edge case examples, but you refuse to offer additional rules. So is it possible that you are wrong?

And what of my last two questions in the previous post?

Regarding the line that distinguishes the three categories you mention: If the line sometimes involves the color of a person's skin or their gender, how is that line not racist or sexist? If the line is racist or sexist, shouldn't we be criticizing the line?

This is just sad.

Yep. So sad that you can't give me even an up or down verdict on a single real world non-hypothetical phenomenon despite your *special* knowledge of cultural propriety.

If all of this is so easy and obvious for you then answering questions like "Misappropriation or not?" should take you no more than 1 second to answer. But you don't.

I ask you a question about racism and sexism, two topics that I know you have a great deal of interest in but you refuse to answer them because ..... ??? They make you uncomfortable?

So sad.

And racism and sexism make you comfortable? now THAT would be sad.

 

[EricK]

I
There is almost never any intention of disrespect in the cases where people are accused of cultural appropriation. Indeed the cultural items are "appropriated" because the "appropriator" likes them and thinks they look/sound/taste etc good.

Here is what I said,

What appropriations have in common is that they use the cultural archetype, ritual or artifact in a incorrect or even deliberately disrespectful way.

See the word incorrect?

I thought you could.

There is no doubt that the appropriator likes the items, it's whether they like the originator or not that is in the bone of contention. White folks at the Cotton Club liked jazz, likes Duke Ellington, and also liked segregation.

There's no "incorrect" way to have a hairstyle. There's no "incorrect" way to play music (at least not in the sense I think you are trying to use the word). So I am not sure what you really mean by "incorrect". Are you claiming that the Jazz at the Cotton Club was "incorrect" in some way?

 

[laughing dog]

I

That is because you are confusing definitions with rules. AA defined cultural appropriation. Your descriptions could be cultural appropriation or cultural assimilation or nothing at all because they lacked relevant information of intent, etc... For example, it is pretty clear your example of Koreans incorporating Western ideas into weddings is not cultural appropriation. There is no intent of disrespect and Westerners do not seem to care at all about those actions.

There is almost never any intention of disrespect in the cases where people are accused of cultural appropriation. Indeed the cultural items are "appropriated" because the "appropriator" likes them and thinks they look/sound/taste etc good.

For some reason, you think liking an item means respecting its original use or intent.

There's no "incorrect" way to have a hairstyle. There's no "incorrect" way to play music (at least not in the sense I think you are trying to use the word).

Of course there are incorrect ways to have a hairstyle or to play music.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Here is what I said,

What appropriations have in common is that they use the cultural archetype, ritual or artifact in a incorrect or even deliberately disrespectful way.

See the word incorrect?

I thought you could.

There is no doubt that the appropriator likes the items, it's whether they like the originator or not that is in the bone of contention. White folks at the Cotton Club liked jazz, likes Duke Ellington, and also liked segregation.

There's no "incorrect" way to have a hairstyle.

Evidently you have never seen what can happen to a person who has her hair done at beauty school.

There's no "incorrect" way to play music (at least not in the sense I think you are trying to use the word).

The patrons of the CC did not play the music. What are you talking about?

So I am not sure what you really mean by "incorrect".

You can't be that dense, but you can be that stubborn and that scared of being wrong.

Are you claiming that the Jazz at the Cotton Club was "incorrect" in some way?

No.

 

[EricK]

There's no "incorrect" way to have a hairstyle.

Evidently you have never seen what can happen to a person who has her hair done at beauty school.I assume this is a joke, because it seems to have nothing to do with the content of the thread.

There's no "incorrect" way to play music (at least not in the sense I think you are trying to use the word).

The patrons of the CC did not play the music. What are you talking about?

So I am not sure what you really mean by "incorrect".

You can't be that dense, but you can be that stubborn and that scared of being wrong.

Are you claiming that the Jazz at the Cotton Club was "incorrect" in some way?

No.

You'll have to forgive me for knowing nothing about The Cotton Club, but judging from your previous posts, your complaint is that the patrons liked the music but didn't like the performers for racist reasons. And that is, of course despicable. But aren't you conflating two entirely separate issues? I don't see why their being racist (which is incorrect) means their liking jazz music becomes incorrect. Why it becomes another bad thing these people did rather than a morally neutral thing which these bad people did.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Evidently you have never seen what can happen to a person who has her hair done at beauty school.I assume this is a joke, because it seems to have nothing to do with the content of the thread.

There's no "incorrect" way to play music (at least not in the sense I think you are trying to use the word).

The patrons of the CC did not play the music. What are you talking about?

So I am not sure what you really mean by "incorrect".

You can't be that dense, but you can be that stubborn and that scared of being wrong.

Are you claiming that the Jazz at the Cotton Club was "incorrect" in some way?

No.

You'll have to forgive me for knowing nothing about The Cotton Club,

And yet you comment on it. AND you have heard of a thing called GOOGLE, correct?

but judging from your previous posts, your complaint is that the patrons liked the music but didn't like the performers for racist reasons.

That is not what I said. That would the OPPOSITE of what I said because I specifically said they liked Duke Ellington. And why are you continuing to talk about the CC when you just said you know nothing about it? This is fascinating.

And that is, of course despicable. But aren't you conflating two entirely separate issues?

No, but you might be trying to avoid broader issues by concentrating on minutia. Are you doing that? Is that why you wish to continue discussing the CC after saying you know nothing about it?

I don't see why their being racist (which is incorrect) means their liking jazz music becomes incorrect.

Also not what I said.

Why it becomes another bad thing these people did rather than a morally neutral thing which these bad people did.

Is that a question?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Are they cultural appropriationists?

Yes.

Is what they're doing morally wrong?

No. But it's probably, in the long run, bad for your children's health.

Women performing in Japanese Kabuki plays... Misappropriation or not?

That's a tricky one, but I think that would fall under "bastardization."

Kinda like the film my cousins affectionately and half-jokingly call "Black Annie." It's not "misappropriation" so much as it is a massive artistic farce.

That is not what I said. That would the OPPOSITE of what I said because I specifically said they liked Duke Ellington. And why are you continuing to talk about the CC when you just said you know nothing about it? This is fascinating.

More fascinating to ME is the fact that white people came to really enjoy Blues -- and probably always had, who could blame them? -- but at a time when it was not yet socially acceptable to openly enjoy "negro music" they got white artists to perform Blues songs and then called it "rock and roll."

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Yes.

Is what they're doing morally wrong?

No. But it's probably, in the long run, bad for your children's health.

Women performing in Japanese Kabuki plays... Misappropriation or not?

That's a tricky one, but I think that would fall under "bastardization."

Kinda like the film my cousins affectionately and half-jokingly call "Black Annie." It's not "misappropriation" so much as it is a massive artistic farce.

That is not what I said. That would the OPPOSITE of what I said because I specifically said they liked Duke Ellington. And why are you continuing to talk about the CC when you just said you know nothing about it? This is fascinating.

More fascinating to ME is the fact that white people came to really enjoy Blues -- and probably always had, who could blame them? -- but at a time when it was not yet socially acceptable to openly enjoy "negro music" they got white artists to perform Blues songs and then called it "rock and roll."

Which brings us to THIS

 

[Playball40]

Here is what I said,

What appropriations have in common is that they use the cultural archetype, ritual or artifact in a incorrect or even deliberately disrespectful way.

See the word incorrect?

I thought you could.

There is no doubt that the appropriator likes the items, it's whether they like the originator or not that is in the bone of contention. White folks at the Cotton Club liked jazz, likes Duke Ellington, and also liked segregation.

There's no "incorrect" way to have a hairstyle. There's no "incorrect" way to play music (at least not in the sense I think you are trying to use the word). So I am not sure what you really mean by "incorrect". Are you claiming that the Jazz at the Cotton Club was "incorrect" in some way?

Or emulating the style of Duke Ellington?