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Diversity?

Jarhyn

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Google releases employee demographics, says diversity is "not where we want to be": http://cir.ca/s/T65

So read this story and can't help but wonder why google should think that this is their fault. I work in a very diverse workplace, with women and minorities well represented. They are, however, still minorities. After a long and drawn out thread, there is indeed a need to point out that many people of all backgrounds and meat-suit-shapes are capable of a tech based job, and that all populations defined by features described as 'due to race' are capable of the same ranges of ability.

That said, the means within those populations are different. In school, I can say with confidence that the reason that there are less women is that women with the set of interests and personality (or lack thereof) to pound out code are rare, far more so than in the male population. Cultural elements within self-segregated communities also end up preventing the nurture necessary for model based thinking needed to be a programmer.

Sure, be diverse. Be unbiased to gender and be color blind. But why shouldn't we take the applicants based on their competency, and rigorously apply fair and blind standards.
 
Google releases employee demographics, says diversity is "not where we want to be": http://cir.ca/s/T65

So read this story and can't help but wonder why google should think that this is their fault. I work in a very diverse workplace, with women and minorities well represented. They are, however, still minorities. After a long and drawn out thread, there is indeed a need to point out that many people of all backgrounds and meat-suit-shapes are capable of a tech based job, and that all populations defined by features described as 'due to race' are capable of the same ranges of ability.

That said, the means within those populations are different. In school, I can say with confidence that the reason that there are less women is that women with the set of interests and personality (or lack thereof) to pound out code are rare, far more so than in the male population. Cultural elements within self-segregated communities also end up preventing the nurture necessary for model based thinking needed to be a programmer.

Sure, be diverse. Be unbiased to gender and be color blind. But why shouldn't we take the applicants based on their competency, and rigorously apply fair and blind standards.

Don't be naive, Jarhyn. Don't you know that companies like Google are rampantly misogynist and racist; how else to explain that the population demographic and their workforce demographic do not align perfectly?

Nothing, but nothing, will shut down the 'diversity' fetishists. Even in my own government department, there's endless sweating of brows and executive meetings over the gender ratio in senior executive service, despite the fact that fully thirty percent of women at executive level (from which the senior executive service is selected) in the department work part time, despite the fact that women are overrepresented relative to the applicant pool (in my particular organisation, women are more likely than men to be successful at promotion to the senior executive service).

You can't win when someone starts with a false premise -- that the demographics of a workplace must mirror the demographics of the population or something bad is going on.
 
It depends on the company goal.
If the goal is sort-term efficiency, yes, obsessing over ratios versus general population instead of versus applicants is silly.

But there can be another goal. Big companies know they're going to be around for a long time, and they want to increase their applicants pool. One way to do that is to look welcoming to all minorities: that can be done by just accepting the unbalance of applicants, because it maintains the image of their jobs as not being minority-friendly or female-friendly. They have to create an appeal, to shape role models, to show to girls or minorities that they can have a nice carreer with them even when they're not the odd one out ready to sacrifice everything to beat the odds.

Plus, by doing that, they get a "good citizen" image, which is helpful when you are a big company because big companies often end dealing a lot with governments.

Best example I can think is Airbus currently taking pains to appeal women and break the usual "men's field" image of aerospace engineering, via hiring quotas objectives, promotion quotas objectives, female high-schoolers outreach days, etc. Believe me, it's not just to appear nice and PC or because they don't know how to reach statistics that current aeronautical engineering schools or unis are full of boys. They're really afraid of the risk of the pools of applicants not being large enough in case of an upturn in the market.
 
Maybe they're having trouble finding qualified minority applicants. They should try using Bing.
 
Merit. People should be selected on merit and qualifications plus the ability to do the work not race or gender.
 
Merit. People should be selected on merit and qualifications plus the ability to do the work not race or gender.

You are such an idealist Angelo. Naïve too. :realitycheck:

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If you get enough diversity then white males will be in the minority and they can claim victim status.
 
Maybe they're having trouble finding qualified minority applicants. They should try using Bing.

Google has 39% minorities compared to 28% of the US in general.

Maybe according to a google search, but given that the people who designed that search engine are the ones being looked at here, that's somewhat of a biased result which can't be trusted.
 
Maybe they're having trouble finding qualified minority applicants. They should try using Bing.

Google has 39% minorities compared to 28% of the US in general.

Maybe according to a google search, but given that the people who designed that search engine are the ones being looked at here, that's somewhat of a biased result which can't be trusted.

Well, in any case they need to meet with leaders from the White Community to explain what they intend to do about it.
 
Google releases employee demographics, says diversity is "not where we want to be": http://cir.ca/s/T65

So read this story and can't help but wonder why google should think that this is their fault. I work in a very diverse workplace, with women and minorities well represented. They are, however, still minorities. After a long and drawn out thread, there is indeed a need to point out that many people of all backgrounds and meat-suit-shapes are capable of a tech based job, and that all populations defined by features described as 'due to race' are capable of the same ranges of ability.

That said, the means within those populations are different. In school, I can say with confidence that the reason that there are less women is that women with the set of interests and personality (or lack thereof) to pound out code are rare, far more so than in the male population. Cultural elements within self-segregated communities also end up preventing the nurture necessary for model based thinking needed to be a programmer.
Do you have the same confidence that this self-selection is due mainly to innate biology or to general cultural elements or to specific cultural elements within the self-segregated communities?
Sure, be diverse. Be unbiased to gender and be color blind. But why shouldn't we take the applicants based on their competency, and rigorously apply fair and blind standards.
If it is the case that it is specific cultural elements within that self-segregated community, then those fair and blind standards are not really fair nor blind. If Google wishes to hire people whom it thinks will blossom into quality employees who bring something else to the company besides programming competence and is willing to educate them, what is the problem?
 
Google releases employee demographics, says diversity is "not where we want to be": http://cir.ca/s/T65

So read this story and can't help but wonder why google should think that this is their fault.

Yeah, there was a thread on Fark today where someone nailed it.

Google's tech worker demographics look an awful lot like a computer science classroom. They're hiring who is available. Duh!

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Maybe they're having trouble finding qualified minority applicants. They should try using Bing.

Google has 39% minorities compared to 28% of the US in general.

This means little--Google is one of those companies that likes hiring H1-Bs.
 
] If it is the case that it is specific cultural elements within that self-segregated community, then those fair and blind standards are not really fair nor blind.

This is the very wrong-headed thinking of quota-mongers. They think that if some aspect of society produces differences in objectively relevant and reasonable qualifications between groups, then somehow it is unfair for any system to ever use those qualifications as the hiring criteria. It is as though if my neighbor Jimmy had crappy parents that didn't foster his intellect and as a result he is objectively much less intellectually skilled when he barely graduates high school. Since it wasn't his fault that his parents sucked and it is in some sense unfair that he was born to such parents while others got lucky with better parents, it is therefore unfair for anyone not to hire him due to his lack of skills that resulted from this unfairness.

When an unfair process produces differences in outcomes, this doesn't mean that it is unfair for any other later process to use those outcomes in its own process. The unfairness of each process is independent and is a function of only the relevance of the criteria it uses, not the reasons why people differ on those criteria due to prior processes.
 
Google has 39% minorities compared to 28% of the US in general.
Yeah, but they are not the right kinds of minorities.

Also, what about the lack of diversity in the NBA? Shouldn't the diversity fetishists likewise insist the racial breakdown of NBA must mirror the racial breakdown of US as a whole?
 
BTW, anyone who has spent time around programmers knows that the prevalence of being on the autism spectrum is quite high, likely due to the aspects of the job that take advantage of autistic tendencies.
There is some emerging science supporting these informal observations, sufficient enough for autism advocacy organizations to institute programs to train people with asperger's autistic kids in computer science under the assumption that they could not merely "function" in such environments but excel.

How is this relevant? It is relevant because autism spectrum disorders are 5 times more common among males, and 20%-40% more common among whites. The latter race differences appear to be more than just an issue of under-diagnosis among minorities, because the difference hold even when random samples of the population are assessed by the study itself rather than relying upon prior clinical diagnosis.

If people on the autism spectrum are over-represented among programmers for reasons that make perfect theoretical sense given autistic traits and the job requirements, then we would expect whites and especially males to be overrepresented in that field, even if skills and interest were the sole determinants.
 
BTW, anyone who has spent time around programmers knows that the prevalence of being on the autism spectrum is quite high, likely due to the aspects of the job that take advantage of autistic tendencies.
There is some emerging science supporting these informal observations, sufficient enough for autism advocacy organizations to institute programs to train people with asperger's autistic kids in computer science under the assumption that they could not merely "function" in such environments but excel.

How is this relevant? It is relevant because autism spectrum disorders are 5 times more common among males, and 20%-40% more common among whites. The latter race differences appear to be more than just an issue of under-diagnosis among minorities, because the difference hold even when random samples of the population are assessed by the study itself rather than relying upon prior clinical diagnosis.

If people on the autism spectrum are over-represented among programmers for reasons that make perfect theoretical sense given autistic traits and the job requirements, then we would expect whites and especially males to be overrepresented in that field, even if skills and interest were the sole determinants.

While this is a very valid point, my OP was entirely discussing (or attempting to discuss) the factors of skills and interest, devoid of any substantive biological differences between arbitrarily divided populations. There was one dark complexioned person in my class at university, and two girls, one who lacked what it would take to really succeed as a programmer; at best she'd end up in sales, support, or interface design.

There's a mindset necessary to be a programmer, and it is rare among women and also rarer among people which self-identify as 'black'.
 
] If it is the case that it is specific cultural elements within that self-segregated community, then those fair and blind standards are not really fair nor blind.

This is the very wrong-headed thinking of quota-mongers. They think that if some aspect of society produces differences in objectively relevant and reasonable qualifications between groups, then somehow it is unfair for any system to ever use those qualifications as the hiring criteria. It is as though if my neighbor Jimmy had crappy parents that didn't foster his intellect and as a result he is objectively much less intellectually skilled when he barely graduates high school. Since it wasn't his fault that his parents sucked and it is in some sense unfair that he was born to such parents while others got lucky with better parents, it is therefore unfair for anyone not to hire him due to his lack of skills that resulted from this unfairness.
Since no one mentioned or hinted at "quotas", what prompted this hiccup of a straw man?
When an unfair process produces differences in outcomes, this doesn't mean that it is unfair for any other later process to use those outcomes in its own process. The unfairness of each process is independent and is a function of only the relevance of the criteria it uses, not the reasons why people differ on those criteria due to prior processes.
An unfair process generates outcomes (fair and unfair). A subsequent process which relies on those outcomes of the previous process is likely to perpetuate the unfairness if the initial outcome is unfair. One would think that logic is simple to follow. It is basically a variation of "garbage in, garbage out".

The issue is what to do (if anything) about that unfairness. If Google wishes to deal with this perceived unfairness by identifying applicants with high potential and educating them, what exactly is the problem?
 
Merit. People should be selected on merit and qualifications plus the ability to do the work not race or gender.

You are such an idealist Angelo. Naïve too. :realitycheck:

- - - Updated - - -

If you get enough diversity then white males will be in the minority and they can claim victim status.
That can't happen because whites are in the majority in the Western world at least.
 
Do you have the same confidence that this self-selection is due mainly to innate biology or to general cultural elements or to specific cultural elements within the self-segregated communities?
Sure, be diverse. Be unbiased to gender and be color blind. But why shouldn't we take the applicants based on their competency, and rigorously apply fair and blind standards.
If it is the case that it is specific cultural elements within that self-segregated community, then those fair and blind standards are not really fair nor blind. If Google wishes to hire people whom it thinks will blossom into quality employees who bring something else to the company besides programming competence and is willing to educate them, what is the problem?

The willingness to be educated, abstain from animalistic dominance games, and many other attitudinal factors to success are directly hindered by the culture those persons are indoctrinated into. It would require years of training and tearing down bad cultural elements. In the end, even if it were possible, those seeking to apply to Google in the first place see no representation from said cultures: it is a job and lifestyle at odds with the glamorized "thug lyfe".

It isn't often a matter of can't, but of "fuck dat shit".
 
] If it is the case that it is specific cultural elements within that self-segregated community, then those fair and blind standards are not really fair nor blind.

This is the very wrong-headed thinking of quota-mongers. They think that if some aspect of society produces differences in objectively relevant and reasonable qualifications between groups, then somehow it is unfair for any system to ever use those qualifications as the hiring criteria. It is as though if my neighbor Jimmy had crappy parents that didn't foster his intellect and as a result he is objectively much less intellectually skilled when he barely graduates high school. Since it wasn't his fault that his parents sucked and it is in some sense unfair that he was born to such parents while others got lucky with better parents, it is therefore unfair for anyone not to hire him due to his lack of skills that resulted from this unfairness.
Since no one mentioned or hinted at "quotas", what prompted this hiccup of a straw man?

It isn't a strawman. You just lack the reasoning skills needed to grasp the relevance. Dismissing the objective fairness of the process (as your argument does) and deeming the process unfair if it doesn't lead to equal outcomes (which is what you do), is the argument put forth by people who want to use race rather than objective qualifications to determine outcome (which is what quota systems such as nearly all AA hiring standards do, including those you have argued for and defended in countless threads). You were dismissing the use of objective competence as "fair" on the grounds that it doesn't produce equal outcomes because the groups are not equal in competence. Using some form of group-affiliation quota system is the only form of hiring process by these companies that would "correct" for those inequalities.

When an unfair process produces differences in outcomes, this doesn't mean that it is unfair for any other later process to use those outcomes in its own process. The unfairness of each process is independent and is a function of only the relevance of the criteria it uses, not the reasons why people differ on those criteria due to prior processes.
An unfair process generates outcomes (fair and unfair).

No, you perfectly illustrate my point. You ignore whether the process judges people on consistent and objectively relevant qualifications and instead define "fair outcomes" of a process by whether they are exact outcomes you want. That is the outlook of the egocentric 3 year old that thinks that every time they don't get what they want, something was "unfair". Only by such an outlook could unfair processes produce fair results or a fair process produce unfair results. The fairness of the outcomes actually "generated" or "produced" by a process are a direct function of the fairness of that particular process itself, since "generated" and "produced" indicate that features of the process were the causal determinants of the fairness rather than a pre-existing inequality that the process merely failed to reverse (which is not the mark of fair processes).


A subsequent process which relies on those outcomes of the previous process is likely to perpetuate the unfairness if the initial outcome is unfair.
An outcome is only unfair in relation to a particular process being unfair. If a process is fair, then its outcomes are fair, even if the result are inequalities that are unfair due to a different process that impacted the inputs to the fair process. For example, if either nature or early-in-life parenting practices give females a disposition less suited to programming, then it could be said that nature or parents are "unfair", but a process that hires programmers based upon job-relevant disposition is not unfair and does not produce unfair outcomes just because it ends up with fewer female programmers. In that situation, it might be "unfair" that there are fewer women programmers, but this is because the outcome of the prior processes were unfair, but the hiring processes was still fair and its produces fair outcomes because that fairness is judged relative to whether the outcomes are what a fair process would produce, given what it had to work with. The extreme case that illustrates this is that an unfair world might lead to zero females applying for any programming jobs, but the hiring process itself cannot reasonably be claimed to produce unfair outcomes simply because only males are hired. The unfair inequalities are not produced by that hiring process so it cannot be said that the hiring process produced unfair outcomes or that the hiring "standards are not really fair", as you claimed. Another example is when one child gets to stay up later than a younger sibling and the younger one screams "That isn't fair!!!". Your argument is equal to this sentiment of the younger child. However, adults explain to them that age is what makes sense to determine bedtime, thus the inequality of bedtimes is a fair outcome of the process generated by the bedtime rule, even though it might not be "fair" that the younger child is younger.

One would think that logic is simple to follow. It is basically a variation of "garbage in, garbage out".
If you understood what that phrase meant, you'd know that it is used to indicate that the fault in no way lies with any unfairness or weakness of the process or the standards by which the process determined its outcomes, but rather that the undesirable result is due to an undesirable state of reality prior to the process in question. IOW the "garbage" or unfairness is not an outcome of the process in question but rather a pre-existing condition that a perfectly sound and fair process would not be expected to be able to fix. IOW, a perfect and fair hiring system will produce unequal group outcomes, because the groups are not equal to begin with and a fair process cannot fix that pre-existing condition.

The issue is what to do (if anything) about that unfairness.
Which cannot be rationally or morally addressed without identifying and specifying what process the unfairness is in relation to, since fairness meaningless outside of a particular relation to a particular process.

If Google wishes to deal with this perceived unfairness by identifying applicants with high potential and educating them, what exactly is the problem?

What that actually means is that Google would take on the task of making its own hiring processes unfairly racist and sexist, in order to try and produce outcomes that "fix" the unfair outcomes of "life" in general that produced inequalities in the only factors that any fair hiring process would use.
Google is already using unfair racist and sexist practices toward this end, but they are unhappy that it isn't enough to produce perfectly equal outcomes. Part of Google's problem is that they underestimate the extent to which white males are over-represented among qualified applicants, including those with at least the qualifications and interest needed to be trained up by the company. Thus, even their current outreach efforts and sexist and racist favoritism toward under-represented groups (i.e., affirmative action hiring policies) is insufficient to produce representation equal to the population at large. The problem is that Google is feeling responsible for a continued inequality in outcomes that is not only not in any way created by their own procedures but that they cannot do anything to completely rectify short of using strict hiring quotas that require hiring by race and gender even when it requires hiring highly unqualified people that are unlikely to ever be trained to be as competent as the applicants they reject due to being white males. They'd be better off funding early education programs that use race and gender quotas for who can participate. While equally sexist, racist, and unfair in procedures, such programs would at least produce an increase in the underrepresented applicants that are both qualified and have sufficient interest when it comes time to hire them at their company.
 
BTW, anyone who has spent time around programmers knows that the prevalence of being on the autism spectrum is quite high, likely due to the aspects of the job that take advantage of autistic tendencies.
There is some emerging science supporting these informal observations, sufficient enough for autism advocacy organizations to institute programs to train people with asperger's autistic kids in computer science under the assumption that they could not merely "function" in such environments but excel.

How is this relevant? It is relevant because autism spectrum disorders are 5 times more common among males, and 20%-40% more common among whites. The latter race differences appear to be more than just an issue of under-diagnosis among minorities, because the difference hold even when random samples of the population are assessed by the study itself rather than relying upon prior clinical diagnosis.

If people on the autism spectrum are over-represented among programmers for reasons that make perfect theoretical sense given autistic traits and the job requirements, then we would expect whites and especially males to be overrepresented in that field, even if skills and interest were the sole determinants.

While this is a very valid point, my OP was entirely discussing (or attempting to discuss) the factors of skills and interest, devoid of any substantive biological differences between arbitrarily divided populations. There was one dark complexioned person in my class at university, and two girls, one who lacked what it would take to really succeed as a programmer; at best she'd end up in sales, support, or interface design.

There's a mindset necessary to be a programmer, and it is rare among women and also rarer among people which self-identify as 'black'.

But if we remove all the people who have that mindset because of autism related issues, then that mindset would be more rare among white males too. So, it is quite relevant. Also, among people without autism related issues, the differential competence and interest among groups could be heavily influenced by cultural stereotypes and treatment of genders from the first second of birth. It isn't Google's duty to hire the most competent people in order to make the most money. They are a private company and have the right to try and effect long term cultural changes at the expense of their own short term efficiency and profit. If they think that the shortage of interested and qualified applicants is partly because young kids don't see people like them as programmers, then they might try and hire more such people to impact long term change in interest and competence. However, if highly skilled programmers and/or programming debuggers and testers are often from a special sub-population of people on the autism spectrum, then this puts a severe limit on how effective Google could be in their desired changes, independent of how you, I, or Google ethically feel about the trading social engineering for fairness in their hiring procedures.
 
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