arnoldo
Member
WWIII
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Turkey shoots down Russian Jet
- Thread starter Will Wiley
- Start date
I assume that they at least have some kind of GPS tracking so that the Russian military knows where they are - as in down to the nanometer, not giving the general area, give or take a few kilometers.
Also, if Russia wants to send forces into ISIS territory to check out it's jet, ISIS doesn't have the capability to anything to stop them beyond having more of their people killed by the Russians while the Russian investigators aren't bothered any. Russia would be more than happy to kill off anybody who comes close.
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Either that or the US just ignores Assad and then Russia doesn't start a war against a superior opponent out of some vague sense of giving a rat's ass about what Assad wants.
SimpleDon
Veteran Member
It does seem to be a serious over reaction to a minor problem.
The Su-24 is the Soviet's answer to the F-111, that is, the answer to a question that should never have been asked. A swing wing, low level attack aircraft, built purposely large to accommodate the bulky avionics of the 1960's on the verge of the electronics miniaturization revolution of the 1970's. An aircraft that was obsolete before it first flew.
It posed no real threat to Turkey. I am surprised that the Russians are still flying the aircraft. The F-111 was retired in the mid 1990's in the US.
The Su-24 is the Soviet's answer to the F-111, that is, the answer to a question that should never have been asked. A swing wing, low level attack aircraft, built purposely large to accommodate the bulky avionics of the 1960's on the verge of the electronics miniaturization revolution of the 1970's. An aircraft that was obsolete before it first flew.
It posed no real threat to Turkey. I am surprised that the Russians are still flying the aircraft. The F-111 was retired in the mid 1990's in the US.
dystopian
Veteran Member
Actually, Turkey not only can make these jets. They have made these jets. F16´s have been produced by companies in 5 different countries, Fokker in the Netherlands (7% of all F16´s in the world, also produced parts for other European and USAF F16´s), Sabca in Belgium (6% of all F16´s, also produced parts for other European and USAF F16´s) Samsung in Korea (3% of all F16´s), Lockheed Martin in the US, and TAI in Turkey (6% of all F16´s). Turkish F16´s are Turkish built.
untermensche
Contributor
A distinction with no difference.
It is US technology spread to the world.
Is the world safer or less safe because of all these weapons everywhere?
barbos
Contributor
They have Su-34 which is a replacement for both Su-24 and Su-25.
Su-24 is perfectly adequate bomber to bomb ISIS. But Su-34 are also used in Syria.
What's any of that have to do with my question about if Russia has the money for replacements?
barbos
Contributor
First time russian plane flew into Turkey they were royally pissed, which was a bit surprising to me. I think people and especially russians underestimate how uninterested Turkey is in defeating ISIS.
Cheerful Charlie
Contributor
But then, these are Turks and they know the Russians well. Obviously they don't want the Russians to get the idea that being careless about borders is acceptable. I suspect Putin will learn something from this. Whether the Turks are smart doing this is another matter. I suspect Russian pilots will be a lot less cavalier about straying into Turkish airspace henceforth. At least we know F-16's and American anti-aircraft missiles work
barbos
Contributor
Well, They have enough Su-34 to replace all Su-24 used in Syria already.
Su-34 is much better plane and may have even been able to avoid these missiles but it is pretty much the same as far bombing ISIS concerned.
barbos
Contributor
I don't think it's about border. I think it's about the fact that Turkey does not like Russia helping Assad.
Does the US have the money to pay for the arms they're dropping into the area? It seems our government has been running a decent credit balance for a while. It seems the Turkman group (Syrians of Turkish decent) used a US supplied anti-tank missle to take down a Soviet rescue helicopter. A group of Syrian rebels that both the US and Turkey must be supporting.
If the Soviets want to retaliate against Turkey, they'll flood the Kurds with arms. Proxy wars are fun.
Do military aircraft have black boxes?
dystopian
Veteran Member
There is a very distinct difference.
You claimed Turkey can't make the jets. They obviously can, and have. So now you're backtracking and trying to make it about the technology. However, just because they didn't design it doesn't mean you aren't still wrong. The jets were completely built in Turkey, by a Turkish company, employing Turkish engineers. If a country can under license indigineously produce all of the parts of a jet and assemble them into a fully functional combat plane, then that country has both the know-how and the infrastructure to design a plane of at least similar capabilities themselves. Countries engaging in these type of license-production runs are in fact intentionally doing it (to a very large degree) to either build-up (such as with Turkey, I'm guessing) or maintain technological know-how, infrastructure, and skill needed to design and build their own military jets without having to spend as much right in the moment. Another thing it allows these countries to do is easily modify the jets they'll be flying to their own specifications instead of being forced to use whatever tech the Americans are using. For instance, I know many original Dutch built F16's had different interior cockpit designs to accommodate our own reconnaissance pods. Turkish F16's are customized too on various points.
It is surely safer. If countries were unable to purchase weapons off the shelf, then they would inevitably find themselves forced to invest in designing and building their own. Countries would not cooperate on military matters the way they do now, which already makes the world less safe to begin with, but it would also make it more attractive for countries to engage in military operations because they'd find themselves forced to spend considerably more money on their militaries just to be able to have a minimal level of defense against their neighbours... so they'll reason that they might as well use their investment.
Malintent
Veteran Member
what do ya'll suppose would happen if they felt like Turkey was supporting the Russians by allowing them to flyover their country to make it more convenient to bomb ISIS? Think they might have a problem with Turkey if they did not react with violence?
When the UK scrambled fighters in response to Russian aircraft getting too close to Ireland's borders, the Russians had deliberately turned off their planes transponders so that they'd have a level of deniability about how close to the borders they'd been flying. So, they do at least have transponders which tell them the exact location of their planes at all times and there's no reason to turn these off during actual military missions. Everything about the planes are monitored from Russian airbases, so they knew exactly where the planes were and they knew exactly what the Turks were saying to the pilots.
If they don't have that level of control (which I wouldn't readily believe) then they have no business flying within a kilometer of a country which has told them to stay the fuck away because they can't guarantee that this distance has been kept.
barbos
Contributor
They destroyed an empty helicopter on the ground, soldiers were out searching for pilots. So Russians have to rescue these rescuers now.
This shit has escalated pretty quickly.
Angra Mainyu
Veteran Member
What's your source?
A group on the ground is saying the helicopter was shot down first, then destroyed on the ground even if the crew managed to escape. ( http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-Russian-helicopter-in-wake-of-jet-crash.html ) They might or might not be telling the truth.