Church influence declining, even in the South

[Underseer]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/influence-churches-dominant-now-waning-south-35548975

Op-ed blog post on the above article:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friend...ches-dont-have-as-much-power-as-they-used-to/

More and more signposts keep showing that religion is on the decline, even in America. I expect that in a couple of decades, our religious landscape will look a lot like the UK does now.

 

[couch_sloth]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/influence-churches-dominant-now-waning-south-35548975

Op-ed blog post on the above article:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friend...ches-dont-have-as-much-power-as-they-used-to/

More and more signposts keep showing that religion is on the decline, even in America. I expect that in a couple of decades, our religious landscape will look a lot like the UK does now.

20 years seems pretty quick for that level of change... perhaps in 50 years it might come true.
One thing that has changed rather quickly in the U.S., that is having a direct impact on organized religion, is society's more accepting views toward homosexuals.
By now it must be dawning on many of the conservative denominations that openly condemning homosexuals is a losing game.
Eventually most of these denominations will have to change their doctrines to be more accepting, or risk becoming marginalized. The down-side for these churches is the fall-out that can happen whenever these type of radical doctrinal changes are made. e. g. Members may begin to take their church's other rules/doctrines less seriously.

 

[braces_for_impact]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/influence-churches-dominant-now-waning-south-35548975

Op-ed blog post on the above article:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friend...ches-dont-have-as-much-power-as-they-used-to/

More and more signposts keep showing that religion is on the decline, even in America. I expect that in a couple of decades, our religious landscape will look a lot like the UK does now.

I agree. A lot can happen in a few decades, look at the gay movement specifically. A lot has happened with atheism too, and it keeps snowballing. It's even taking a hold in the Middle East (albeit quietly).

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Back in the late 70's I belonged to a catholic parish that had a few dozen families. Just for shits and grins I wanted to know if it was even still there so googled around and found out that it now has 800 families - yikes! - and all the online info is in Spanish and English.

So I don't blame the homosexual and atheist agendas. Seems like southern Baptist piety is falling victim to bingo and soccer, and the adoration of alcohol and sport that comes long with it.

 

[ronburgundy]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/influence-churches-dominant-now-waning-south-35548975

Op-ed blog post on the above article:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friend...ches-dont-have-as-much-power-as-they-used-to/

More and more signposts keep showing that religion is on the decline, even in America. I expect that in a couple of decades, our religious landscape will look a lot like the UK does now.

I agree. A lot can happen in a few decades, look at the gay movement specifically. A lot has happened with atheism too, and it keeps snowballing. It's even taking a hold in the Middle East (albeit quietly).

Gay rights is a very specific issue, and one can change position on it without much change in one's general worldview. Religion is about general worldview, at least among its true and sincere adherents. There are likely few true believers leaving religion during their lifetime. They may weaken it centrality to their life, which will make their kids less religious, and thus maybe leading to more full-on non-religious people within that family over a few generations, especially if the larger culture is moving that way too. The kind of quick "change" that has been happening is mostly people that were already doubtful and only superficially religious to begin with becoming more honest with themselves and others about their actual views, or maybe just to be less authoritarian in forcing their own superficial religious identity on their kids, and thus letting the kids choose not to identify with one.

The so-called "militant" atheists deserve much credit for this because they greatly broadened the spectrum of the public discourse on religion which used to be "You can either jam religion down people's throats or you better keep quiet about it". Even many the new "non-religious" who think Dawkins et al., are "extremists" owe them gratitude because by setting the bar for religious critique so high, it allowed people who wanted to more quietly leave religion the opportunity to do so and go less noticed and appear"moderate".

 

[Potoooooooo]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/influence-churches-dominant-now-waning-south-35548975

Op-ed blog post on the above article:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friend...ches-dont-have-as-much-power-as-they-used-to/

More and more signposts keep showing that religion is on the decline, even in America. I expect that in a couple of decades, our religious landscape will look a lot like the UK does now.

I sure hope, being gay in the bible belt sucks (and not in a good way either)

 

[Underseer]

I agree. A lot can happen in a few decades, look at the gay movement specifically. A lot has happened with atheism too, and it keeps snowballing. It's even taking a hold in the Middle East (albeit quietly).

Gay rights is a very specific issue, and one can change position on it without much change in one's general worldview. Religion is about general worldview, at least among its true and sincere adherents. There are likely few true believers leaving religion during their lifetime. They may weaken it centrality to their life, which will make their kids less religious, and thus maybe leading to more full-on non-religious people within that family over a few generations, especially if the larger culture is moving that way too. The kind of quick "change" that has been happening is mostly people that were already doubtful and only superficially religious to begin with becoming more honest with themselves and others about their actual views, or maybe just to be less authoritarian in forcing their own superficial religious identity on their kids, and thus letting the kids choose not to identify with one.

The so-called "militant" atheists deserve much credit for this because they greatly broadened the spectrum of the public discourse on religion which used to be "You can either jam religion down people's throats or you better keep quiet about it". Even many the new "non-religious" who think Dawkins et al., are "extremists" owe them gratitude because by setting the bar for religious critique so high, it allowed people who wanted to more quietly leave religion the opportunity to do so and go less noticed and appear"moderate".

Yes, what we are seeing now is that people who were already on the fence starting to leave religion because they can finally be honest with themselves. However, this creates a delicious little feedback loop.

Every time a moderate leaves a religion, the fanatics become a larger percentage of that religion. So each time a moderate leaves, the remaining religious become proportionally more fanatical. The more fanatical the religion becomes, the more moderates want to leave. The more moderates leave, the more fanatical the remaining population becomes.

It is my opinion that America is at the tipping point, and that we are about a generation away from having a religious landscape that looks like Britain.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

It is my opinion that America is at the tipping point, and that we are about a generation away from having a religious landscape that looks like Britain.

My initial reaction is to ask, "What planet are you living on?"

It is most certainly going in the direction you say, but I don't expect us to be like Britain for another 50 years at least. I might live another 30, and hope to watch the trend continue.

 

[ideologyhunter]

This discussion always strikes me as the one about the imminent demise of the organized hard right. Dream on. I will admit there are some signs that American religiosity may have peaked -- these are all anecdotal and may be refuted by observations on the other side:
1- Gay marriage??? Here??? (Also in Ireland. Ireland!!) Who'da thunk? So soon after the Bushies?
2- Christian-busting humor is now extremely overt -- there are people like Kathy Griffin and Sarah Silverman who have been so offensive to the religious sensibility in sketches and comments that you know they couldn't have perpetrated a generation ago.
3- The sheer number of self-identifying atheists among celebs (not politicians, as yet).
4- The (I guess) reliable numbers on the decline in church membership -- but I would like to see a bump in the % of Americans who see evolution as reliable science.

 

[Underseer]

It is my opinion that America is at the tipping point, and that we are about a generation away from having a religious landscape that looks like Britain.

My initial reaction is to ask, "What planet are you living on?"

It is most certainly going in the direction you say, but I don't expect us to be like Britain for another 50 years at least. I might live another 30, and hope to watch the trend continue.

Do you acknowledge that the current Christian population sounds more radical than ever before?

As more and more moderates leave the religion in response to this, do you expect that Christianity will continue to appear more and more radical?

If the radicalization of Christianity continues, what do you expect will happen to the rate at which moderates leave the religion?

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

My initial reaction is to ask, "What planet are you living on?"

It is most certainly going in the direction you say, but I don't expect us to be like Britain for another 50 years at least. I might live another 30, and hope to watch the trend continue.

Do you acknowledge that the current Christian population sounds more radical than ever before?

As more and more moderates leave the religion in response to this, do you expect that Christianity will continue to appear more and more radical?

If the radicalization of Christianity continues, what do you expect will happen to the rate at which moderates leave the religion?

When you read stuff like this:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-35136023

It does seem like radicalization is on the rise but I think it's just more the case that people can express themselves without fear. In other words, secular law is just catching up with religion.

If anything has contributed to the decline of religious influence in the U.S. I think it is the shrinking middle class, in other words, economic insecurity. Religion can be an expensive proposition. While Christian monotheism generally makes religion much easier to practice, it still takes money.

 

[Underseer]

Do you acknowledge that the current Christian population sounds more radical than ever before?

As more and more moderates leave the religion in response to this, do you expect that Christianity will continue to appear more and more radical?

If the radicalization of Christianity continues, what do you expect will happen to the rate at which moderates leave the religion?

When you read stuff like this:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-35136023

It does seem like radicalization is on the rise but I think it's just more the case that people can express themselves without fear. In other words, secular law is just catching up with religion.

If anything has contributed to the decline of religious influence in the U.S. I think it is the shrinking middle class, in other words, economic insecurity. Religion can be an expensive proposition. While Christian monotheism generally makes religion much easier to practice, it still takes money.

You have it backwards. Declining prosperity results in greater religiosity. Greater prosperity generally results in less religiosity.

 

[Underseer]

OK, I can't say it's a causal link, but there is a well-established correlation between higher poverty rates and the religiosity of a population.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

OK, I can't say it's a causal link, but there is a well-established correlation between higher poverty rates and the religiosity of a population.

And that would be my parents and grandparents generations, when churches were actually social institutions and religion was expected to fulfill certain societal obligations. It was where being on the outs with religion made it far more difficult to prosper, if not survive. The immigrants of those generations needed their churches. Those churches were their portals to a new land and a necessity if they were to survive.

That's not the case in the U.S. today. When my BIL needed care the family turned to catholic charities and received zip in the way of support. Today that individual lives off the state, not religious charity. People are used to this today. They don't need churches and religion for these purposes. To me the fact that there are secular safety nets and services explains the declining influence of religion. There are other reasons but I think this is a big one.