The difference in police shootings

[Loren Pechtel]

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...police-officer-hits-detroit-streets/78913254/

Observations from a British cop in Detroit.

 

[Trausti]

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...police-officer-hits-detroit-streets/78913254/

Observations from a British cop in Detroit.

Demographics matter.

 

[RavenSky]

not "demographics"

GUNS

The prevalence of guns in the USA.

Bolding mine:

Detroit’s rampant violence, “Third World poverty,” and the availability of firearms aren’t as prevalent in his homeland,

“Being on these streets (in Detroit), knowing there are so many guns around, you very quickly become aware of your own mortality.”

While riding with the Gang Intelligence unit on the city’s east side recently, Matthews got an up-close look at the prevalence of guns,

and POVERTY

"third world poverty" to be precise. The kind of poverty that only exists in the USA because we refuse to allow the types of safety nets they have in the UK

 

[Loren Pechtel]

not "demographics"

GUNS

The prevalence of guns in the USA.

Bolding mine:

“Being on these streets (in Detroit), knowing there are so many guns around, you very quickly become aware of your own mortality.”

While riding with the Gang Intelligence unit on the city’s east side recently, Matthews got an up-close look at the prevalence of guns,

and POVERTY

"third world poverty" to be precise. The kind of poverty that only exists in the USA because we refuse to allow the types of safety nets they have in the UK

Our safety net is good enough that people don't go hungry so long as they are willing to work with the system.

 

[RavenSky]

not "demographics"

GUNS

The prevalence of guns in the USA.

Bolding mine:

While riding with the Gang Intelligence unit on the city’s east side recently, Matthews got an up-close look at the prevalence of guns,

and POVERTY

"third world poverty" to be precise. The kind of poverty that only exists in the USA because we refuse to allow the types of safety nets they have in the UK

Our safety net is good enough that people don't go hungry so long as they are willing to work with the system.

Right. Because barely not starving to death is good enough :rollingeyes:

Besides, you posted the article. Now you disagree with it?

 

[laughing dog]

Our safety net is good enough that people don't go hungry so long as they are willing to work with the system.

That is simply untrue. The working poor may go hungry even if they are not starving.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

not "demographics"

GUNS

The prevalence of guns in the USA.

Bolding mine:

“Being on these streets (in Detroit), knowing there are so many guns around, you very quickly become aware of your own mortality.”

While riding with the Gang Intelligence unit on the city’s east side recently, Matthews got an up-close look at the prevalence of guns,

and POVERTY

"third world poverty" to be precise. The kind of poverty that only exists in the USA because we refuse to allow the types of safety nets they have in the UK

I also noticed this:

“In the U.K., officers don’t go to calls thinking they could be shot at any second,” the 21-year police veteran said. “The average cop in London deals with fights, domestic calls, and burglaries. In a year, they might never get called to a homicide scene.

Isn't Loren the one who is constantly telling us that the crime rate in England actually skyrocketted after the gun ban?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

not "demographics"

GUNS

The prevalence of guns in the USA.

Bolding mine:

While riding with the Gang Intelligence unit on the city’s east side recently, Matthews got an up-close look at the prevalence of guns,

and POVERTY

"third world poverty" to be precise. The kind of poverty that only exists in the USA because we refuse to allow the types of safety nets they have in the UK

I also noticed this:

“In the U.K., officers don’t go to calls thinking they could be shot at any second,” the 21-year police veteran said. “The average cop in London deals with fights, domestic calls, and burglaries. In a year, they might never get called to a homicide scene.

Isn't Loren the one who is constantly telling us that the crime rate in England actually skyrocketted after the gun ban?

"Crime rate" != "Murder rate".

The US has a higher murder rate, mostly thanks to the drug war. England has the higher crime rate.

 

[bigfield]

not "demographics"

GUNS

The prevalence of guns in the USA.

Bolding mine:

While riding with the Gang Intelligence unit on the city’s east side recently, Matthews got an up-close look at the prevalence of guns,

and POVERTY

"third world poverty" to be precise. The kind of poverty that only exists in the USA because we refuse to allow the types of safety nets they have in the UK

I also noticed this:

“In the U.K., officers don’t go to calls thinking they could be shot at any second,” the 21-year police veteran said. “The average cop in London deals with fights, domestic calls, and burglaries. In a year, they might never get called to a homicide scene.

Isn't Loren the one who is constantly telling us that the crime rate in England actually skyrocketted after the gun ban?

"Crime rate" != "Murder rate".

The US has a higher murder rate, mostly thanks to the drug war. England has the higher crime rate.

Let's see some statistics from you to back that up.

You made a similar unsupported claim in response to me in the 'deaths by police' thread.

 

[ronburgundy]

not "demographics"

GUNS

The prevalence of guns in the USA.

Bolding mine:

While riding with the Gang Intelligence unit on the city’s east side recently, Matthews got an up-close look at the prevalence of guns,

and POVERTY

"third world poverty" to be precise. The kind of poverty that only exists in the USA because we refuse to allow the types of safety nets they have in the UK

I also noticed this:

“In the U.K., officers don’t go to calls thinking they could be shot at any second,” the 21-year police veteran said. “The average cop in London deals with fights, domestic calls, and burglaries. In a year, they might never get called to a homicide scene.

Isn't Loren the one who is constantly telling us that the crime rate in England actually skyrocketted after the gun ban?

"Crime rate" != "Murder rate".

The US has a higher murder rate, mostly thanks to the drug war. England has the higher crime rate.

Let's see some statistics from you to back that up.

You made a similar unsupported claim in response to me in the 'deaths by police' thread.

How does it help your position to claim that the US citizenry whom the cops must police are not only much more lethally armed but also more generally prone to criminal violence?

Regardless, international comparisons of non-lethal crimes are largely meaningless, because they don't define the crimes in the same way reporting rates of such crimes likely various greatly by country.

What is relevant in the article is that US cops not only encounter more homicide scenes, they encounter more lethally armed suspects (and bystanders) on all types of crime scenes including what otherwise might be a minor drug infraction, marital dispute, or traffic stop.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

What is relevant in the article is that US cops not only encounter more homicide scenes, they encounter more lethally armed suspects (and bystanders) on all types of crime scenes including what otherwise might be a minor drug infraction, marital dispute, or traffic stop.

And what is relevant by extension is that the U.K. does not have this problem primarily because they do not have such widespread availability of firearms and they do not have rampant uncontrolled poverty.

In short: there are too many guns in too many places with too many reasons to use them. The solution to this problem is kind of obvious to the rest of the world... but we're Americans, we solve our problems by shooting them.

 

[laughing dog]

The OP is really irrelevant to the real issue: the (mis)use of firearms by police in the USA. As a nation, we have allowed them to define "reasonable fear" to easily.

 

[SimpleDon]

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...police-officer-hits-detroit-streets/78913254/

Observations from a British cop in Detroit.

This is telling us that we need to get rid of poverty and the easy availability of guns. Otherwise, the police will continue to shoot unarmed, innocent people because they are afraid that they are desperate people who have guns. What about this surprises you?

Of course, we have a crime problem in part because we have so much poverty in the richest nation on earth and so many guns. Another large part of our problem with crime is because the poor turn to drugs as a source of income and as an escape. Addiction is a disease that in spite of all of the available evidence we treat as a crime for the poor.

 

[ronburgundy]

What is relevant in the article is that US cops not only encounter more homicide scenes, they encounter more lethally armed suspects (and bystanders) on all types of crime scenes including what otherwise might be a minor drug infraction, marital dispute, or traffic stop.

And what is relevant by extension is that the U.K. does not have this problem primarily because they do not have such widespread availability of firearms and they do not have rampant uncontrolled poverty.

In short: there are too many guns in too many places with too many reasons to use them. The solution to this problem is kind of obvious to the rest of the world... but we're Americans, we solve our problems by shooting them.

This particular problem is far more about the guns than poverty.
Poor people without guns are not nearly the lethal threat to cops and others, but people with guns are a lethal threat, regardless of whether they are poor.

The OP is really irrelevant to the real issue: the (mis)use of firearms by police in the USA. As a nation, we have allowed them to define "reasonable fear" to easily.

If you had do their job, your pant-soaking terror would break the fear-meter.

How can the way the US responds to the justifications for cop use of force be the cause of whether that force is used in the first place? The use comes before the justification, and thus the cause must precede the justification.

Every sound theoretical or empirical analysis point to the guns cops face as the major causal factor. Those guns are the cause of the cops themselves being armed, being on the ready (to a fault) to unholster those guns, being generally fearful of lethal threats in nearly every type of enforcment encounter, and being able to get away with "I thought it was a gun" excuse when it isn't valid, something UK cops cannot get away with because the objective probability that it might be a gun is too low to make the misperception a reasonable one.

The prevalence with which cops encounter illegal guns and gun-related crimes is the strongest predictor use of lethal force by cops between countries, between States, and between neighborhoods within a single city. People get shot by cops in the same places they are most likely to get shot by non-cops. Common factor? Guns.

 

[SimpleDon]

not "demographics"

GUNS

The prevalence of guns in the USA.

Bolding mine:

While riding with the Gang Intelligence unit on the city’s east side recently, Matthews got an up-close look at the prevalence of guns,

and POVERTY

"third world poverty" to be precise. The kind of poverty that only exists in the USA because we refuse to allow the types of safety nets they have in the UK

Our safety net is good enough that people don't go hungry so long as they are willing to work with the system.

I can't agree with either of you. Poverty is a problem with income distribution. Nothing more. As long as we have policies to increase the incomes of the already rich and not to distribute it on a more reasonable basis we will have a few really wealthy people and increasing poverty as the middle class shrinks.

And the safety net shouldn't be for the working poor. Anyone who works full time should be earning at least enough money to stay out of poverty and to be in the middle class. If we continue to subsidize low wages with the safety net we will just get more low wages.

 

[TV and credit cards]

This is telling us that we need to get rid of poverty and the easy availability of guns. Otherwise, the police will continue to shoot unarmed, innocent people because they are afraid that they are desperate people who have guns. What about this surprises you?

Of course, we have a crime problem in part because we have so much poverty in the richest nation on earth and so many guns. Another large part of our problem with crime is because the poor turn to drugs as a source of income and as an escape. Addiction is a disease that in spite of all of the available evidence we treat as a crime for the poor.

There are plenty of poor people around the world where the crime is not commensurate with the level of poverty, if we use US cities as a reference point. Not by a long shot. My blonde haired, white ass has visited very impoverished, remote areas of the Philippines dressed in my desirable American clothes and shoes and a pocket full of dollars. The people are wonderful. It is their nature to be so.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

not "demographics"

GUNS

The prevalence of guns in the USA.

Bolding mine:

While riding with the Gang Intelligence unit on the city’s east side recently, Matthews got an up-close look at the prevalence of guns,

and POVERTY

"third world poverty" to be precise. The kind of poverty that only exists in the USA because we refuse to allow the types of safety nets they have in the UK

Our safety net is good enough that people don't go hungry so long as they are willing to work with the system.

Evidently, it isn't. If it were, then Detroit would not be the fix it is in.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

This is telling us that we need to get rid of poverty and the easy availability of guns. Otherwise, the police will continue to shoot unarmed, innocent people because they are afraid that they are desperate people who have guns. What about this surprises you?

Of course, we have a crime problem in part because we have so much poverty in the richest nation on earth and so many guns. Another large part of our problem with crime is because the poor turn to drugs as a source of income and as an escape. Addiction is a disease that in spite of all of the available evidence we treat as a crime for the poor.

There are plenty of poor people around the world where the crime is not commensurate with the level of poverty, if we use US cities as a reference point. Not by a long shot. My blonde haired, white ass has visited very impoverished, remote areas of the Philippines dressed in my desirable American clothes and shoes and a pocket full of dollars. The people are wonderful. It is their nature to be so.

 Crime in the Philippines

Violent crime is high in the country; foreigners are usually the victims. As many Filipinos are stricken with poverty, one alternative they take is to kidnap others for money.[2]

consider yourself lucky.

 

[arkirk]

not "demographics"

GUNS

The prevalence of guns in the USA.

Bolding mine:

While riding with the Gang Intelligence unit on the city’s east side recently, Matthews got an up-close look at the prevalence of guns,

and POVERTY

"third world poverty" to be precise. The kind of poverty that only exists in the USA because we refuse to allow the types of safety nets they have in the UK

Our safety net is good enough that people don't go hungry so long as they are willing to work with the system.

That's baloney. You right wingers have done everything you could to see to it there IS NO "SYSTEM" of the type you are referring to. There is a system of profitable prisons. There also is a system of public ways where people who are black are threatened by people who drive black and white cars and carry guns. When people are driven to the fringes of poverty and despair, they are liable to do anything....even steal a gun. We don't have a significant safety net in America, so quit talking about the nonexistent.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And the safety net shouldn't be for the working poor. Anyone who works full time should be earning at least enough money to stay out of poverty and to be in the middle class. If we continue to subsidize low wages with the safety net we will just get more low wages.

If you work full time you won't be in poverty.

If you and your spouse work full time you won't be in poverty unless you breed like rabbits.

Poverty is almost totally a matter of work hours--which is why attacking it via the minimum wage is doomed--it's not controlling factor.