Out of the mouths of fictional characters.

[AthenaAwakened]

Sometimes, in order to get the proper effect, words of truth are put in the mouths of people who are fictitious.

From the HBO show, The Newsroom, the character is Will McAvoy.

"The Newsroom: Election Night: Part II (#2.9)" (2013)

Taylor Warren: Do you call yourself a Republican so you can make a claim to credibility when you attack the GOP?

Will McAvoy: No, I call myself a Republican 'cause I am one. I believe in market solutions, and I believe in common sense realities and the necessity to defend ourselves against a dangerous world and that's about it. Problem is now I have to be homophobic. I have to count the number of times people go to church. I have to deny facts and think scientific research is a long con. I have to think poor people are getting a sweet ride. And I have to have such a stunning inferiority complex that I fear education and intellect in the 21st century. But most of all, the biggest new requirement, really the only requirement, is that I have to hate Democrats. And I have to hate Chris Christie for not spitting on the President when he got off Air Force One. The two-party system is crucial to the whole operation. There is honor in being the loyal opposition. And I'm a Republican for the same reasons you are. So I hope your voice gets louder in the next four years.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Sometimes, in order to get the proper effect, words of truth are put in the mouths of people who are fictitious.

From the HBO show, The Newsroom, the character is Will McAvoy.

"The Newsroom: Election Night: Part II (#2.9)" (2013)

Taylor Warren: Do you call yourself a Republican so you can make a claim to credibility when you attack the GOP?

Will McAvoy: No, I call myself a Republican 'cause I am one. I believe in market solutions, and I believe in common sense realities and the necessity to defend ourselves against a dangerous world and that's about it. Problem is now I have to be homophobic. I have to count the number of times people go to church. I have to deny facts and think scientific research is a long con. I have to think poor people are getting a sweet ride. And I have to have such a stunning inferiority complex that I fear education and intellect in the 21st century. But most of all, the biggest new requirement, really the only requirement, is that I have to hate Democrats. And I have to hate Chris Christie for not spitting on the President when he got off Air Force One. The two-party system is crucial to the whole operation. There is honor in being the loyal opposition. And I'm a Republican for the same reasons you are. So I hope your voice gets louder in the next four years.

I thought that was a great quote (too bad that it didn't come from a real person). But there are many people who are conservative in business, liberal in personal issues. Personally, I don't mind paying a reasonable amount of taxes. I believe in a strong safety net. However, I have worked my ass off. When I started my company, the government did me no favors. They created great barriers. But I left the republican party a long time ago due to their insane war on gays and science.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Sometimes, in order to get the proper effect, words of truth are put in the mouths of people who are fictitious.

From the HBO show, The Newsroom, the character is Will McAvoy.

"The Newsroom: Election Night: Part II (#2.9)" (2013)

Taylor Warren: Do you call yourself a Republican so you can make a claim to credibility when you attack the GOP?

Will McAvoy: No, I call myself a Republican 'cause I am one. I believe in market solutions, and I believe in common sense realities and the necessity to defend ourselves against a dangerous world and that's about it. Problem is now I have to be homophobic. I have to count the number of times people go to church. I have to deny facts and think scientific research is a long con. I have to think poor people are getting a sweet ride. And I have to have such a stunning inferiority complex that I fear education and intellect in the 21st century. But most of all, the biggest new requirement, really the only requirement, is that I have to hate Democrats. And I have to hate Chris Christie for not spitting on the President when he got off Air Force One. The two-party system is crucial to the whole operation. There is honor in being the loyal opposition. And I'm a Republican for the same reasons you are. So I hope your voice gets louder in the next four years.

Frequently politics will include fiction out of the mouths of actual characters.

 

[Underseer]

Sometimes fiction strains credulity.

Any Republicans like that were likely driven from the party during the Bush administration.

I don't doubt that statistically, there is probably a Republican like that out there somewhere, but they are few enough that we can ignore them.

 

[repoman]

I liked the Global Warming scientist bit. That would be possible for a guy to blow off steam like that:

 

[AthenaAwakened]

I liked the Global Warming scientist bit. That would be possible for a guy to blow off steam like that:

One of my favorite scenes from the show.

The first time I watched it, all I could say at the end was, "Well, damn."

 

[AthenaAwakened]

And then of course this from the first scene of the first show.

Go Will GO!

Jennifer Johnson: Can you say why America is the greatest country in the world?
Sharon: Diversity and opportunity.
Moderator: Lewis?
Lewis: Freedom and freedom... so let's keep it that way.
Moderator: Will?
Will McAvoy: The New York Jets.
Moderator: No, I'm going to hold you to an answer on that. What makes America the greatest country in the world?
Will McAvoy: Well, Lewis and Sharon said it. Diversity and opportunity and freedom and freedom.
Moderator: I'm not letting you go back to the airport without answering the question.
Will McAvoy: Well, our Constitution is a masterpiece. James Madison was a genius. The Declaration of Independence is, for me, the single greatest piece of American writing...
[Professor keeps staring]
Will McAvoy: You don't look satisfied.
Moderator: One's a set of laws and the other's a declaration of war. I want a human moment from you... what about the people? Why is America...
Will McAvoy: It's not the greatest country in the world, professor. That's my answer.
Moderator: You're saying...
Will McAvoy: Yes.
Moderator: Let's talk about...
Will McAvoy: Fine.
[Turns to Sharon]
Will McAvoy: Sharon, the NEA is a loser. Yeah, it accounts for a penny out of our paycheck, but he
[gestures to Lewis]
Will McAvoy: gets to hit you with it anytime he wants. It doesn't cost money, it costs votes. It costs airtime and column inches. You know why people don't like liberals? Cause they lose. If liberals are so fucking smart, how come they lose so god damn always?
Sharon: Hey!
Will McAvoy: [Turns to Louis] And with a straight face, you're gonna tell students that America is so star-spangled awesome that we're the only ones in the world who have freedom? Canada has freedom. Japan has freedom. The UK. France. Italy. Germany. Spain. Australia... Belgium! has freedom... 207 sovereign states in the world, like 180 of 'em have freedom.
Moderator: Alright...
Will McAvoy: [Looks at Jenny] And, yeah, you... sorority girl. Just in case you accidentally wander into a voting booth one day, there are some things you should know. One of them is: There is absolutely no evidence to support the statement that we're the greatest country in the world. We're 7th in literacy, 27th in math, 22nd in science, 49th in life expectancy, 178th in infant mortality, 3rd in median household income, number 4 in labor force and number 4 in exports. We lead the world in only three categories: number of incarcerated citizens per capita, number of adults who believe angels are real and defense spending - where we spend more than the next 26 countries combined, 25 of whom are allies. Now, none of this is the fault of a 20-year-old college student, but you, nonetheless, are without a doubt a member of the worst period generation period ever period, so when you ask what makes us the greatest country in the world, I don't know what the FUCK you're talking about!... Yosemite?
[Stunned silence]
Will McAvoy: ... It sure used to be. We stood up for what was right. We fought for moral reasons. We passed laws, struck down laws - for moral reasons. We waged wars on poverty, not on poor people. We sacrificed, we cared about our neighbors, we put our money where our mouths were and we never beat our chest. We built great, big things, made ungodly technological advanced, explored the universe, cured diseases and we cultivated the world's greatest artists AND the world's greatest economy. We reached for the stars, acted like men. We aspired to intelligence, we didn't belittle it. It didn't make us feel inferior. We didn't identify ourselves by who we voted for in the last election and we didn't scare so easy. We were able to be all these things and do all these things because we were informed... by great men, men who were revered. First step in solving any problem is recognizing there is one. America is not the greatest country in the world anymore.

 

[Bomb#20]

Sometimes, in order to get the proper effect, words of truth are put in the mouths of people who are fictitious.

From the HBO show, The Newsroom, the character is Will McAvoy.

"The Newsroom: Election Night: Part II (#2.9)" (2013)

Taylor Warren: Do you call yourself a Republican so you can make a claim to credibility when you attack the GOP?

Will McAvoy: No, I call myself a Republican 'cause I am one. I believe in market solutions, and I believe in common sense realities and the necessity to defend ourselves against a dangerous world and that's about it. Problem is now I have to ...

This is the show that made me coin the word RINOINO. Will McAvoy is what a partisan Democrat screen-writer like Sorkin imagines a RINO should be. A real live RINO criticizes the insanity of the current Republican Party and the troglodytes who've turned it into what it is very much the way Jeff Daniels does in the show; but he also criticizes Democrats.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Sometimes, in order to get the proper effect, words of truth are put in the mouths of people who are fictitious.

From the HBO show, The Newsroom, the character is Will McAvoy.

This is the show that made me coin the word RINOINO. Will McAvoy is what a partisan Democrat screen-writer like Sorkin imagines a RINO should be. A real live RINO criticizes the insanity of the current Republican Party and the troglodytes who've turned it into what it is very much the way Jeff Daniels does in the show; but he also criticizes Democrats.

You mean like he does here?

Will McAvoy: Sharon, the NEA is a loser. Yeah, it accounts for a penny out of our paycheck, but he
[gestures to Lewis]
Will McAvoy: gets to hit you with it anytime he wants. It doesn't cost money, it costs votes. It costs airtime and column inches. You know why people don't like liberals? Cause they lose. If liberals are so fucking smart, how come they lose so god damn always?

But here is the real deal.

The GOP top vote getter for their party's nomination is Donald Trump who is running on a platform of racism, nationalism, and stupidism.
GOP legislatures are passing laws that demand people pee only where the legislature says they can and that make discrimination an act of holy sacrement and constitutional affirmation.
The GOP wants a government so small it will fit in a woman's uterus and so large it can micro manage every move made by every woman of child bearing age in the nation, and possibly the world.

Now I would buy your RINOINO argument, except I grew up around Republicans like Will McAvoy. They weren't a dream. They were my aunts and uncles and they had their faults and they got shit wrong, but they were decent, they were thoughtful, and they could with enough time CHANGE THEIR MINDS. They didn't need to hate people just because they disagreed with people. And they would weep for their party of Lincoln if they could have seen it deteriorate into the party of John Wilkes Booth.

What Democrats dream a Republican could be is not the issue, not the problem. What Republicans have become in the fully conscious light of day is.

People who support the Party, support conservatism, choose to ignore that problem at their peril.

 

[Bomb#20]

You mean like he does here?

Will McAvoy: gets to hit you with it anytime he wants. It doesn't cost money, it costs votes. It costs airtime and column inches. You know why people don't like liberals? Cause they lose.

Yeah, that's what real RINOs think is wrong with liberals: that they lose.

Now I would buy your RINOINO argument, except I grew up around Republicans like Will McAvoy. They weren't a dream. They were my aunts and uncles...they were decent, they were thoughtful, and they could with enough time CHANGE THEIR MINDS. They didn't need to hate people just because they disagreed with people.

Of course. Mine too. My point is, I don't think Sorkin grew up around Republicans like Will McAvoy. He writes like he grew up in an echo chamber. Sorkin appears to have made McAvoy a Republican so he can make a claim to credibility when he attacks the GOP.

 

[Colonel Sanders]

Sometimes fiction strains credulity.

Any Republicans like that were likely driven from the party during the Bush administration.

I don't doubt that statistically, there is probably a Republican like that out there somewhere, but they are few enough that we can ignore them.

That's what I thought when I first saw that too, except I'd peg the timeline to be more around the mid to late 1980s. It was during the Bill Clinton years that the GOP really lost its fucking mind. The idea that the country could do well under a Democratic President really twisted their panties.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

You mean like he does here?

Yeah, that's what real RINOs think is wrong with liberals: that they lose.

Well, actually, kinda, yeah. People respect winners and deride losers. So you could argue that at least ONE of the things republicans thinks is that liberals are losers and deserving of derision.

Now I would buy your RINOINO argument, except I grew up around Republicans like Will McAvoy. They weren't a dream. They were my aunts and uncles...they were decent, they were thoughtful, and they could with enough time CHANGE THEIR MINDS. They didn't need to hate people just because they disagreed with people.

Of course. Mine too. My point is, I don't think Sorkin grew up around Republicans like Will McAvoy.

Why?

He writes like he grew up in an echo chamber.

He has a point of view. That doesn't mean he has no experience, as man or boy, with other points of view.

Sorkin appears to have made McAvoy a Republican so he can make a claim to credibility when he attacks the GOP.

Which is he charge the first quote answers. Is there something wrong in the first quote? Something un-republican in what he said? something untrue in the quote?

 

[Colonel Sanders]

... I don't think Sorkin grew up around Republicans like Will McAvoy. He writes like he grew up in an echo chamber. Sorkin appears to have made McAvoy a Republican so he can make a claim to credibility when he attacks the GOP.

You're almost certainly right about Sorkin's motivations. But does that necessarily make McAvoy wrong?

To me, a conservative is one who wants to keep the things that are working, and change the things that aren't. But even when they see that change as needed, they don't want to do it in a way that causes massive unintended consequences. It's progress, but it's measured, steady, and therefore slower than what more progressive people would like.

Of course you can throw all the racist, nationalistic, and the rest of the anti-intellectual movements that infect American conservatism in the trash. That shit has no place. I mean, it does right now in the GOP and Tea Party, but that's not what I personally think a conservative is. To be something, you actually have to know what it is. And a depressing number of American conservative voters don't have any kind of grasp on why they believe what they do.

Since Reagan, Jesus has become a Republican, racism no longer exists, and the work of vital government institutions like the DEA and Department of Education have become punching bags over some vague notion that government is bad. The same goes for higher education. Yes, it has its problems, but the sheer animosity toward the idea of intellectualism in GOP/Tea Party voters is very real. But ask one of their average voters to articulate why, and the overwhelming number simply can't do it, or they have a one-dimensional, ready-made scapegoat.

 

[untermensche]

I call myself a Republican 'cause I am one. I believe in market solutions, and I believe in common sense realities and the necessity to defend ourselves against a dangerous world and that's about it.

That doesn't make one a Republican.

It makes one insane, naive, and somewhat level headed.

 

[Bomb#20]

Yeah, that's what real RINOs think is wrong with liberals: that they lose.

Well, actually, kinda, yeah. People respect winners and deride losers. So you could argue that at least ONE of the things republicans thinks is that liberals are losers and deserving of derision.

Things Democrats say when they criticize one another don't count. Catering to Democrats' self-comforting narrative that they're fighting the good fight even when they lose doesn't count. What seems to be missing from McAvoy is the concept that the social democrats who get called "liberals" in America aren't always the good guys.

He has a point of view. That doesn't mean he has no experience, as man or boy, with other points of view.

He has a Democratic point of view which he put in McAvoy's mouth. Do you remember Ainsley Hayes from the West Wing? She rang true; her lines sounded like Sorkin got a Republican to help write them. No way he'd make a show with her as the protagonist. Sure, he has adult experience with other points of view, but that doesn't mean he can put himself in their shoes.

Sorkin appears to have made McAvoy a Republican so he can make a claim to credibility when he attacks the GOP.

Which is he charge the first quote answers. Is there something wrong in the first quote? Something un-republican in what he said? something untrue in the quote?

Sure, he answers the charge; but "'cause I am one" is an answer McAvoy can give but Sorkin can't. Spock isn't always logical, because his scriptwriters aren't Vulcans. We pretend for the sake of enjoying the show that the logical thing is whatever Spock does, and that's fine, but let's not pretend we aren't pretending. And no, there's nothing wrong with McAvoy's first quote; it's a beautiful piece of work. The problem isn't anything he says; the problem is what he doesn't say.

(And I'll bet that's not the part of the show Sorkin wrote first. I'll bet he wrote it precisely because while he was working up other scenes somebody accused him of making McAvoy a Republican so he can make a claim to credibility when he attacks the GOP.)

... I don't think Sorkin grew up around Republicans like Will McAvoy. He writes like he grew up in an echo chamber. Sorkin appears to have made McAvoy a Republican so he can make a claim to credibility when he attacks the GOP.

You're almost certainly right about Sorkin's motivations. But does that necessarily make McAvoy wrong?

Not in the least. I'm not defending what the Republican Party has become; I'm criticizing Sorkin's artwork.

 

[Trausti]

Meh. It's fiction, produced by someone with a particular political persuasion. Anyone can create a fictional character to represent an opposing point of view and depict that character as an idiot, fool, or misguided. Kinda like lying for Jesus, eh? But why use fiction? How about out of the mouths of actual characters?

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqAiarOhC2U[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeJbOU4nmHQ[/YOUTUBE]

 

[laughing dog]

He has a Democratic point of view which he put in McAvoy's mouth. Do you remember Ainsley Hayes from the West Wing? She rang true; her lines sounded like Sorkin got a Republican to help write them. No way he'd make a show with her as the protagonist. Sure, he has adult experience with other points of view, but that doesn't mean he can put himself in their shoes.

My father thinks McAvoy's speech rings true and he is lifelong Republican.

 

[Bomb#20]

My father thinks McAvoy's speech rings true and he is lifelong Republican.

Certainly. His speeches ring true; but that's not enough to make the man himself ring true. Like I said, the problem isn't anything he says; the problem is what he doesn't say. Does your father never say anything to challenge progressives' self-image as the conscience of the nation?

 

[Underseer]

Sometimes, in order to get the proper effect, words of truth are put in the mouths of people who are fictitious.

From the HBO show, The Newsroom, the character is Will McAvoy.

This is the show that made me coin the word RINOINO. Will McAvoy is what a partisan Democrat screen-writer like Sorkin imagines a RINO should be. A real live RINO criticizes the insanity of the current Republican Party and the troglodytes who've turned it into what it is very much the way Jeff Daniels does in the show; but he also criticizes Democrats.

I agree with you.

A real RINO is only slightly less fascist than the other Republicans. Kasich is a perfect example. Any actual moderates were driven out of the party a long time ago. The only thing left are varying degrees of extremism.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Another Sorkin Republican

Meet Ainsley Hayes