Russians try to warn America

[ZiprHead]

I'm curious. Why would you come here and subjugate yourself to this propaganda if things are so great in Russia?

 

[barbos]

I'm curious. Why would you come here and subjugate yourself to this propaganda if things are so great in Russia?

That's a very standard and very stupid rebuttal. Number of reasons, For example I was starving and wanted to eat.
Russia was a shithole in the 90s, and relatively speaking it still is. But it does not mean you can bash Russia indiscriminately.

 

[zorq]

If you ask me, the article of the OP is a message from friends warning us we are going off the cliff. It is like your best friend who has just told you your wife is cheating but you refuse to believe because she has been so nice to you.

And not to take this seriously is the height of stupidity and ignorance. We are in grave danger right now.

If you ask me, the article of the OP is a message from gullible consumers of Russian propoganda. So many Russians have been completely immersed in propaganda and have been their entire lives that they can't tell the difference between Russian lies and the truth.

Is Russia dangerous? Absolutely. Does that mean western citizens need to pressure their governments to bow down to Russia's every whim like these appeasement petitioners are suggesting? Absolutely not.

Russia's interventions in Ukraine in 2014 were extremely provocative.

Here's a reminder of what happened in Ukraine in 2014. (Hidden in case of TLDR.)

Show

Russian propaganda emphasizes that Ukraine's president Yanukovich was democratically elected but always ignore the un-democratic power-grab that took place after election.

In 2010 Yanukovich was elected on a platform of "neutrality" regarding Russia and the West, but immediately strong-armed the Ukrainian courts to change the constitution back to a previous version which would give the President More power. (Several judges had been forced to resign right before the ruling under pressure from Yanukovich) This controversial power-grab lead to unrest and distrust of the President which grew.

In November 2013 Yanukovich signed a partnership deal with Russia and rejected a deal with the EU which incited protests in Kiev. (Admittedly Russia did offer a better deal of $15 Billion compared to the EU's 838 Million in loans and aid, but Russia also ran a subversive ad campaign in Ukraine. They love their propaganda.)

In December 2013 Yanukovich tried his hand a gerrymandering by passing a law that reduced the influence of Kiev votes. Obviously this lead to larger protests in Kiev which grew further.

In February protests elevated to riots when more anti-protest laws were passed and the protesters occupied some government buildings. . Russia was determined to not let Yanukovich's opposition come to power and they publicly said so. Not only that, Russians insisted that force was necessary to resolve the situation and gave military advice and personnel, including snipers, to Yanukovich for use in squashing the protesters. With Russia's military help, Yanukovich tried a crackdown that left more than 100 people dead.

On February 22 After this failed crackdown Yanukovich signed an agreement with the opposition giving concessions including a return to the 2010 constitution. This agreement was mediated with both EU and Russian advisers and witnesses. The parliament voted unanimously to accept these concessions. Yanukovich's impeachment was proposed, and the next day Yanukovich fled the country and parliament declared that he had "withdrawn from his duties in an unconstitutional manner" and set a schedule for early elections. Parliament elected Turchynov acting president and prime minister of Ukraine. This very same day, the 23rd, Putin had a meeting where he discussed extracting Yanukovich and set the agenda of "returning Crimea to Russia"

On February 27 masked Russian troops not wearing any insignias took over the supreme council of Crimea and other strategic locations. This led to the installation of the pro-Russian Aksyonov government in Crimea and the declaration of Crimea's independence. This was a clear violation of the agreement that established Ukraine's independence following the break up of the USSR and a clear violation of international law.

In March 2014 Russia's "little green men" soldiers set up a self declared pro-Russian government and announced a referendum on Crimea's independence. This referendum is not recognized as legitimate by international rules. These same Russian soldiers were posted outside of the poling places and controlled the ballot boxes on the referendum day.

(sources available upon request, or just look it up yourself.)

Russia complains about the provocative nature of the West, but Russia militarily invaded, captured and annexed Crimea and currently has soldiers in the eastern Ukranian territories known as the Donbass. Some of these Russian soldiers are masquerading as a "humanitarian convoy," but a remarkable number of Russian soldiers have been sent home in caskets due to "military training accidents" in the past couple years. Russia is fighting Pro-Ukranian Government forces in the Donbass against international law, but NATO conducting a military training exercise in Poland is outrageous? Please.

 

[barbos]

If you ask me, the article of the OP is a message from friends warning us we are going off the cliff. It is like your best friend who has just told you your wife is cheating but you refuse to believe because she has been so nice to you.

And not to take this seriously is the height of stupidity and ignorance. We are in grave danger right now.

If you ask me, the article of the OP is a message from gullible consumers of Russian propoganda. So many Russians have been completely immersed in propaganda and have been their entire lives that they can't tell the difference between Russian lies and the truth.

Is Russia dangerous? Absolutely. Does that mean western citizens need to pressure their governments to bow down to Russia's every whim like these appeasement petitioners are suggesting? Absolutely not.

Russia's interventions in Ukraine in 2014 were extremely provocative.

Here's a reminder of what happened in Ukraine in 2014. (Hidden in case of TLDR.)

Show

Russian propaganda emphasizes that Ukraine's president Yanukovich was democratically elected but always ignore the un-democratic power-grab that took place after election.

In 2010 Yanukovich was elected on a platform of "neutrality" regarding Russia and the West, but immediately strong-armed the Ukrainian courts to change the constitution back to a previous version which would give the President More power. (Several judges had been forced to resign right before the ruling under pressure from Yanukovich) This controversial power-grab lead to unrest and distrust of the President which grew.

In November 2013 Yanukovich signed a partnership deal with Russia and rejected a deal with the EU which incited protests in Kiev. (Admittedly Russia did offer a better deal of $15 Billion compared to the EU's 838 Million in loans and aid, but Russia also ran a subversive ad campaign in Ukraine. They love their propaganda.)

In December 2013 Yanukovich tried his hand a gerrymandering by passing a law that reduced the influence of Kiev votes. Obviously this lead to larger protests in Kiev which grew further.

In February protests elevated to riots when more anti-protest laws were passed and the protesters occupied some government buildings. . Russia was determined to not let Yanukovich's opposition come to power and they publicly said so. Not only that, Russians insisted that force was necessary to resolve the situation and gave military advice and personnel, including snipers, to Yanukovich for use in squashing the protesters. With Russia's military help, Yanukovich tried a crackdown that left more than 100 people dead.

On February 22 After this failed crackdown Yanukovich signed an agreement with the opposition giving concessions including a return to the 2010 constitution. This agreement was mediated with both EU and Russian advisers and witnesses. The parliament voted unanimously to accept these concessions. Yanukovich's impeachment was proposed, and the next day Yanukovich fled the country and parliament declared that he had "withdrawn from his duties in an unconstitutional manner" and set a schedule for early elections. Parliament elected Turchynov acting president and prime minister of Ukraine. This very same day, the 23rd, Putin had a meeting where he discussed extracting Yanukovich and set the agenda of "returning Crimea to Russia"

On February 27 masked Russian troops not wearing any insignias took over the supreme council of Crimea and other strategic locations. This led to the installation of the pro-Russian Aksyonov government in Crimea and the declaration of Crimea's independence. This was a clear violation of the agreement that established Ukraine's independence following the break up of the USSR and a clear violation of international law.

In March 2014 Russia's "little green men" soldiers set up a self declared pro-Russian government and announced a referendum on Crimea's independence. This referendum is not recognized as legitimate by international rules. These same Russian soldiers were posted outside of the poling places and controlled the ballot boxes on the referendum day.

(sources available upon request, or just look it up yourself.)

Russia complains about the provocative nature of the West, but Russia militarily invaded, captured and annexed Crimea and currently has soldiers in the eastern Ukranian territories known as the Donbass. Some of these Russian soldiers are masquerading as a "humanitarian convoy," but a remarkable number of Russian soldiers have been sent home in caskets due to "military training accidents" in the past couple years. Russia is fighting Pro-Ukranian Government forces in the Donbass against international law, but NATO conducting a military training exercise in Poland is outrageous? Please.

That's a load of "western" propaganda.

 

[barbos]

Even such a hard opponent of Putin as Khodorkovsky refused to promise return of Crimea.
In a recent interview to Euronews he did call it "annexation" but said people (In Crimea) should decide their fate after "true" democracy is established in Russia. That's politically correct way to say "Ukraine is not going to get Crimea back even if I am a president"
West can protest perceived illegality all they want but the fact is, crimeans voted to get out of Ukraine and that's it.
Also, I don't remember the US/West complaining when Crimea and especially Sevastopol were illegally and undemocratically annexed to Ukraine in 1990s.

 

[whichphilosophy]

The US should be working together with Russia to more effectively combat terrorism and other world issues. Perhaps the US government doesn't realize that the Cold War is over, or should be.

 

[barbos]

The US should be working together with Russia to more effectively combat terrorism and other world issues. Perhaps the US government doesn't realize that the Cold War is over, or should be.

My theory is that American military-industrial complex saw the opportunity to get some money when Russia started spending some money on making their military slightly less inadequate. End of Cold war was a disaster for them.

 

[zorq]

If you ask me, the article of the OP is a message from gullible consumers of Russian propoganda. So many Russians have been completely immersed in propaganda and have been their entire lives that they can't tell the difference between Russian lies and the truth.

Is Russia dangerous? Absolutely. Does that mean western citizens need to pressure their governments to bow down to Russia's every whim like these appeasement petitioners are suggesting? Absolutely not.

Russia's interventions in Ukraine in 2014 were extremely provocative.

Here's a reminder of what happened in Ukraine in 2014. (Hidden in case of TLDR.)

Show

Russian propaganda emphasizes that Ukraine's president Yanukovich was democratically elected but always ignore the un-democratic power-grab that took place after election.

In 2010 Yanukovich was elected on a platform of "neutrality" regarding Russia and the West, but immediately strong-armed the Ukrainian courts to change the constitution back to a previous version which would give the President More power. (Several judges had been forced to resign right before the ruling under pressure from Yanukovich) This controversial power-grab lead to unrest and distrust of the President which grew.

In November 2013 Yanukovich signed a partnership deal with Russia and rejected a deal with the EU which incited protests in Kiev. (Admittedly Russia did offer a better deal of $15 Billion compared to the EU's 838 Million in loans and aid, but Russia also ran a subversive ad campaign in Ukraine. They love their propaganda.)

In December 2013 Yanukovich tried his hand a gerrymandering by passing a law that reduced the influence of Kiev votes. Obviously this lead to larger protests in Kiev which grew further.

In February protests elevated to riots when more anti-protest laws were passed and the protesters occupied some government buildings. . Russia was determined to not let Yanukovich's opposition come to power and they publicly said so. Not only that, Russians insisted that force was necessary to resolve the situation and gave military advice and personnel, including snipers, to Yanukovich for use in squashing the protesters. With Russia's military help, Yanukovich tried a crackdown that left more than 100 people dead.

On February 22 After this failed crackdown Yanukovich signed an agreement with the opposition giving concessions including a return to the 2010 constitution. This agreement was mediated with both EU and Russian advisers and witnesses. The parliament voted unanimously to accept these concessions. Yanukovich's impeachment was proposed, and the next day Yanukovich fled the country and parliament declared that he had "withdrawn from his duties in an unconstitutional manner" and set a schedule for early elections. Parliament elected Turchynov acting president and prime minister of Ukraine. This very same day, the 23rd, Putin had a meeting where he discussed extracting Yanukovich and set the agenda of "returning Crimea to Russia"

On February 27 masked Russian troops not wearing any insignias took over the supreme council of Crimea and other strategic locations. This led to the installation of the pro-Russian Aksyonov government in Crimea and the declaration of Crimea's independence. This was a clear violation of the agreement that established Ukraine's independence following the break up of the USSR and a clear violation of international law.

In March 2014 Russia's "little green men" soldiers set up a self declared pro-Russian government and announced a referendum on Crimea's independence. This referendum is not recognized as legitimate by international rules. These same Russian soldiers were posted outside of the poling places and controlled the ballot boxes on the referendum day.

(sources available upon request, or just look it up yourself.)

Russia complains about the provocative nature of the West, but Russia militarily invaded, captured and annexed Crimea and currently has soldiers in the eastern Ukranian territories known as the Donbass. Some of these Russian soldiers are masquerading as a "humanitarian convoy," but a remarkable number of Russian soldiers have been sent home in caskets due to "military training accidents" in the past couple years. Russia is fighting Pro-Ukranian Government forces in the Donbass against international law, but NATO conducting a military training exercise in Poland is outrageous? Please.

That's a load of "western" propaganda.

Go ahead, name a single fact I posted that you dispute and I can provide evidence for it's legitimacy.

It's better than you ever offer.

 

[barbos]

That's a load of "western" propaganda.

Go ahead, name a single fact I posted that you dispute and I can provide evidence for it's legitimacy.

It's better than you ever offer.

There is nothing for me to refute. You merely repeated what western media repeats over and over. The whole point of this thread is that western media ls lying, so your repeating it is pointless.

 

[zorq]

Go ahead, name a single fact I posted that you dispute and I can provide evidence for it's legitimacy.

It's better than you ever offer.

There is nothing for me to refute. You merely repeated what western media repeats over and over. The whole point of this thread is that western media ls lying, so your repeating it is pointless.

..........

 

[Keith&Co.]

I'm curious. Why would you come here and subjugate yourself to this propaganda if things are so great in Russia?

That's a very standard and very stupid rebuttal.

It's a question, not a rebuttal.

That would explain a lot, really, if you think any comeback is 'a rebuttal.'

 

[barbos]

That's a very standard and very stupid rebuttal.

It's a question, not a rebuttal.

That would explain a lot, really, if you think any comeback is 'a rebuttal.'

Ok, it is a very standard and very stupid comeback. Feeling better?
Unlike you and majority of US talking heads, people who signed that letter have an advantage of actually knowing and understanding both countries. It will do you good to listen to other side sometimes, instead of repeating bullshit you like to hear.

 

[Keith&Co.]

It's a question, not a rebuttal.

That would explain a lot, really, if you think any comeback is 'a rebuttal.'

Ok, it is a very standard and very stupid comeback. Feeling better?

Oh, it's not about my feeling better. it's about you once more not knowing what you're talking about, and making it quite clear to your readers.

Unlike you and majority of US talking heads, people who signed that letter have an advantage of actually knowing and understanding both countries. It will do you good to listen to other side sometimes, instead of repeating bullshit you like to hear.

If these letter writing-Russians are living in the US, then they're subject to the same US lying media I am, right? How is it they have a superior understanding of both countries?
Is it because Russia's media is telling them.....The Trooth?

 

[Tigers!]

BTW: what is the Russian obsession with Poland? Why can't they just leave the country alone?

There is no russian obsession with Poland. There is polish obsession with Russia, even NATO is getting tired of Poland.

IIRC just this last century Russia has invaded Poland in 1914, 1920, 1939, 1956 & 1980. I think Poland is correct to be obsessed with Russia.

 

[barbos]

Ok, it is a very standard and very stupid comeback. Feeling better?

Oh, it's not about my feeling better. it's about you once more not knowing what you're talking about, and making it quite clear to your readers.

My irony meter activated.

Unlike you and majority of US talking heads, people who signed that letter have an advantage of actually knowing and understanding both countries. It will do you good to listen to other side sometimes, instead of repeating bullshit you like to hear.

If these letter writing-Russians are living in the US, then they're subject to the same US lying media I am, right? How is it they have a superior understanding of both countries?

Because they lived in both countries and know a lot of the stuff first hand.

Is it because Russia's media is telling them.....The Trooth?

No, because they lived in Russia, unlike talking heads who use Holywood movies as a source of inspiration.

- - - Updated - - -

There is no russian obsession with Poland. There is polish obsession with Russia, even NATO is getting tired of Poland.

IIRC just this last century Russia has invaded Poland in 1914, 1920, 1939, 1956 & 1980. I think Poland is correct to be obsessed with Russia.

And Poland invaded Russia number of times too, your point?
Poland at one time was bigger (population wise) and certainly more powerful than Russia.

 

[Keith&Co.]

No, because they lived in Russia, unlike talking heads who use Holywood movies as a source of inspiration.

Yeah, see, it's not really much of a 'rebuttal' if we know that every time you evaluate a fact claim, you're going to maintain that anyone who disagrees with you simply must be using Hollywood as their source material.

 

[ZiprHead]

I'm curious. Why would you come here and subjugate yourself to this propaganda if things are so great in Russia?

That's a very standard and very stupid rebuttal. Number of reasons, For example I was starving and wanted to eat.
Russia was a shithole in the 90s, and relatively speaking it still is. But it does not mean you can bash Russia indiscriminately.

I was discriminately asking a question you still have not answered. Here it is again.: What would happen to Russians in Russia if they wrote a similar letter warning Russia not to antagonize the US and NATO?

 

[barbos]

No, because they lived in Russia, unlike talking heads who use Holywood movies as a source of inspiration.

Yeah, see, it's not really much of a 'rebuttal' if we know that every time you evaluate a fact claim, you're going to maintain that anyone who disagrees with you simply must be using Hollywood as their source material.

Not with me, with reality. every time you disagree with reality.

- - - Updated - - -

That's a very standard and very stupid rebuttal. Number of reasons, For example I was starving and wanted to eat.
Russia was a shithole in the 90s, and relatively speaking it still is. But it does not mean you can bash Russia indiscriminately.

I was discriminately asking a question you still have not answered. Here it is again.: What would happen to Russians in Russia if they wrote a similar letter warning Russia not to antagonize the US and NATO?

One of the Putin advisers did just that, he is doing fine.

 

[ZiprHead]

One of the Putin advisers did just that, he is doing fine.

Cite?

 

[barbos]

One of the Putin advisers did just that, he is doing fine.

Cite?

https://www.vedomosti.ru/economics/articles/2016/05/30/642871-kudrin-putinu