No Atheists in Fox Holes - Atheists Brainwashed by Religion2

[Ramaraksha]

We have all heard the popular saying - that when trouble strikes even Atheists invoke God, ergo, Atheists and Atheism is a joke

Don't understand why Atheists take it lying down - the response is quite easy - "There are no Theists when Death comes calling"

Frankly religion has built up heaven so much, it is a wonder why anyone would choose to live down here on earth. I mean a Sugar Daddy is just waiting with a bucket of chicken ready, eternal good life awaits - just sit back and enjoy! God will pay all the bills! It's like a rich guy invites you to stay at his beach house rent free, a chef comes daily to cook your meals, you get to drive around his car and use his boat - ah the good life!(Amazing that millions fall for this cheap promise)

No wonder religion had to make committing suicide a crime, a sin - otherwise it would be seen as a death cult

But back to my response - have you ever seen anyone celebrate upon hearing that he or she has but a few days or months to live? The doctor saying, "in just a few months, all your troubles will be over! You will get to live the good life for eternity! Throw a party, enjoy!" - funny no doctor has ever said that. Instead every person at death's door grabs on to life with both hands and refuses to let go! He begs the doc to save him! Save him from God! From Heaven! He or she is ready to spend their entire life savings in order to stay alive!

 

[Keith&Co.]

We have all heard the popular saying - that when trouble strikes even Atheists invoke God, ergo, Atheists and Atheism is a joke

Yes, yes. Theists lie to themselves to feel better about themselves.

Don't understand why Atheists take it lying down - the response is quite easy - "There are no Theists when Death comes calling"

Wow.
That's inaccurate AND it doesn't make any sense. The whole POINT of the first claim is that fear drives people to grasp at ideological straws, such as a god being there to catch you after you die. That's why people who proclaim they're atheists cry for god at times of stress. It's a fear response.
Of course, soldiers with lethal wounds are split between crying for God and crying out for Mommy. Somehow, no one brags that frightened people believe that their mommy will fly to the battlefield and pull them from the burning tank and kiss the sucking chest wound and make it better. They just brag that someone thinks an invisible sky daddy will make it all better.

And as for 'take it lying down,' you're wrong. Look up the Military Association of Atheists for responses to the lie that there are no atheists in foxholes.

What does any of this have to do with atheists being brainwashed, though, other than the fact that you like to use the term, probably to goad people around you?

The lies and biases of the religious are their issue. Even if i were to take it 'lying down,' that doesn't mean they've 'brainwashed' me into accepting their lie. Could be that i just don't see that much benefit from confronting the silly little buggers. Or maybe the counter is just so obvious it doesn't need to be countered? Or maybe you're not paying sufficient attention to what atheists actually do to have a foggy idea what you're talking about?

 

[Atheos]

It didn't sound to me like Ramaraksha was presenting a theistic argument Keith. It looks more like the argument is that when the rubber hits the road few Christians welcome death. Many of them are still afraid of it and do whatever they can to forestall it for as long as possible. You'd think that if they really believed all the hype about heaven they'd be eager to die.

It's like the old joke about the preacher who obtained a bus. He drove it down to the bar, walked inside and said, "Everyone who wants to go to heaven needs to get out of this place and go get on that church bus!"

Everyone got on the bus except for one guy, who was still sitting at his table drinking his drink. The preacher looked at him and said, "What's the matter, don't you want to go to heaven? Get on the bus so I can take you to church!"

"Oh," he replied, "I misunderstood. I thought you were getting a load ready to go to heaven right now."

 

[Keith&Co.]

It didn't sound to me like Ramaraksha was presenting a theistic argument Keith.

No, he's mocking the theist argument, but also trying to mock atheists as if we've bought into the theist argument.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

We have all heard the popular saying - that when trouble strikes even Atheists invoke God, ergo, Atheists and Atheism is a joke

Don't understand why Atheists take it lying down - the response is quite easy - "There are no Theists when Death comes calling"

Frankly religion has built up heaven so much, it is a wonder why anyone would choose to live down here on earth. I mean a Sugar Daddy is just waiting with a bucket of chicken ready, eternal good life awaits - just sit back and enjoy! God will pay all the bills! It's like a rich guy invites you to stay at his beach house rent free, a chef comes daily to cook your meals, you get to drive around his car and use his boat - ah the good life!(Amazing that millions fall for this cheap promise)

No wonder religion had to make committing suicide a crime, a sin - otherwise it would be seen as a death cult

But back to my response - have you ever seen anyone celebrate upon hearing that he or she has but a few days or months to live? The doctor saying, "in just a few months, all your troubles will be over! You will get to live the good life for eternity! Throw a party, enjoy!" - funny no doctor has ever said that. Instead every person at death's door grabs on to life with both hands and refuses to let go! He begs the doc to save him! Save him from God! From Heaven! He or she is ready to spend their entire life savings in order to stay alive!

What about suicide bombers?

 

[abaddon]

You'd think that if they really believed all the hype about heaven they'd be eager to die.

I wouldn't think so. It's nothing unusual for people to really fully believe something, anything, but also have a bodily instinct that doesn’t give a flying crap about whatever beliefs.

 

[Keith&Co.]

to really fully believe something, anything, but also have a bodily instinct that doesn’t give a flying crap about whatever beliefs.

true. Hold your hand on the unbreakable glass while the rattlesnake strikes and don't flinch.

 

[Underseer]

We argue against it. None of us takes that argument lying down, believe me. As others have pointed out, this argument actually is worse for theism than for atheism because it implies that the cause of theistic belief is reason-destroying fear. They are all but admitting that they accept these beliefs because of an emotionally-charged appeal to consequence fallacy.

 

[Ramaraksha]

It didn't sound to me like Ramaraksha was presenting a theistic argument Keith.

No, he's mocking the theist argument, but also trying to mock atheists as if we've bought into the theist argument.

Yes though i wouldn't say mocking atheists - just think they can do more to fight back - yes victors do write history books but Atheists do have the power to fight back now but all i see is silence

Not that you have bought into the theist argument, more like Atheists are a bit passive and not protest much

 

[Ramaraksha]

We have all heard the popular saying - that when trouble strikes even Atheists invoke God, ergo, Atheists and Atheism is a joke

Don't understand why Atheists take it lying down - the response is quite easy - "There are no Theists when Death comes calling"

Frankly religion has built up heaven so much, it is a wonder why anyone would choose to live down here on earth. I mean a Sugar Daddy is just waiting with a bucket of chicken ready, eternal good life awaits - just sit back and enjoy! God will pay all the bills! It's like a rich guy invites you to stay at his beach house rent free, a chef comes daily to cook your meals, you get to drive around his car and use his boat - ah the good life!(Amazing that millions fall for this cheap promise)

No wonder religion had to make committing suicide a crime, a sin - otherwise it would be seen as a death cult

But back to my response - have you ever seen anyone celebrate upon hearing that he or she has but a few days or months to live? The doctor saying, "in just a few months, all your troubles will be over! You will get to live the good life for eternity! Throw a party, enjoy!" - funny no doctor has ever said that. Instead every person at death's door grabs on to life with both hands and refuses to let go! He begs the doc to save him! Save him from God! From Heaven! He or she is ready to spend their entire life savings in order to stay alive!

What about suicide bombers?

Yes isn't it - Join our religion - we welcome Suicide bombers?

As i have posted religions have built up heaven in such a wonderful manner, that no fool would want to stay down here, hence the injunction against suicide - it is a sin etc. The very same people who tell us that we are all sinners, that we are living in sin - so how can escape from a life of sin be wrong? Religious "morals" in full display

But back to your question - suicide bombers are failed people - they have failed at life - we all want the good life but down here on earth nothing is free, we have to fight for everything, everything that we want must be earned, paid for, whereas heaven is the total opposite - Sugar Daddy God will pay for everything, just sit back and enjoy! 72 virgins waiting! No wonder these failures find an excuse to kill themselves - they find an issue that "God approves" and go kill and in the process make sure that either they commit suicide or are killed and with guns, that's a certainity

 

[Keith&Co.]

No, he's mocking the theist argument, but also trying to mock atheists as if we've bought into the theist argument.

Yes though i wouldn't say mocking atheists -

Well, that's my impression of you insisting on describing us as brainwashed.

just think they can do more to fight back - yes victors do write history books but Atheists do have the power to fight back now but all i see is silence

Then you're not looking closely. Or at least not in the right places. I see plenty of fighting back.

Not that you have bought into the theist argument, more like Atheists are a bit passive and not protest much

Try searching for 'atheists in foxholes,' maybe?

 

[abaddon]

From the OP:

have you ever seen anyone celebrate upon hearing that he or she has but a few days or months to live? … every person at death's door grabs on to life with both hands and refuses to let go!

Not actually “celebrate”, no. But if you think death is totally unwelcome to all persons, that everyone fights against it tooth and nail, that’s a bold claim that’s demonstrably false when you find persons who show they’re ready to “move on” … or in Tom Sawyer’s example, ready to blow up… so I would advise against making big claims about what absolutely everyone does or doesn’t do.

About suicide bombers, they seem to be rather like persons who believe they must fight for everything in the way you describe people who aren’t “failures” … Studies indicate it has more to do with intense devotion to a group’s political cause. Suicide bombers are worried less about what their individual self gains or loses and concerned more about their group’s cause and proving their resolve is too strong to be defeated regardless how outgunned they may be.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

From the OP:

have you ever seen anyone celebrate upon hearing that he or she has but a few days or months to live? … every person at death's door grabs on to life with both hands and refuses to let go!

Not actually “celebrate”, no. But if you think death is totally unwelcome to all persons, that everyone fights against it tooth and nail, that’s a bold claim that’s demonstrably false when you find persons who show they’re ready to “move on” … or in Tom Sawyer’s example, ready to blow up… so I would advise against making big claims about what absolutely everyone does or doesn’t do.

About suicide bombers, they seem to be rather like persons who believe they must fight for everything in the way you describe people who aren’t “failures” … Studies indicate it has more to do with intense devotion to a group’s political cause. Suicide bombers are worried less about what their individual self gains or loses and concerned more about their group’s cause and proving their resolve is too strong to be defeated regardless how outgunned they may be.

Ya, that's like saying that someone who throws themselves on a grenade to save their friends is a failed person. Suicide bombers feel that they have a cause worth dying for. The fact that they're wrong and their cause is stupid doesn't change their motivations.

 

[Ramaraksha]

From the OP:

have you ever seen anyone celebrate upon hearing that he or she has but a few days or months to live? … every person at death's door grabs on to life with both hands and refuses to let go!

Not actually “celebrate”, no. But if you think death is totally unwelcome to all persons, that everyone fights against it tooth and nail, that’s a bold claim that’s demonstrably false when you find persons who show they’re ready to “move on” … or in Tom Sawyer’s example, ready to blow up… so I would advise against making big claims about what absolutely everyone does or doesn’t do.

About suicide bombers, they seem to be rather like persons who believe they must fight for everything in the way you describe people who aren’t “failures” … Studies indicate it has more to do with intense devotion to a group’s political cause. Suicide bombers are worried less about what their individual self gains or loses and concerned more about their group’s cause and proving their resolve is too strong to be defeated regardless how outgunned they may be.

Your first observation about death - in such things we have to take things in general - sure there will be people who welcome death. It is like your doctor advising you to exercise and eat right - aren't they people who never exercise, smoke and eat bad who have lived a long life? Does that conclude the doctor is wrong for advising people to eat right?

For the most part, most people don't seem much eager to see God and enjoy Heaven - they would rather stick around even if life isn't much

As for the second - rarely if ever there is just one reason for anyone doing anything - usually there are multiple reasons - I am sure for suicide bombers, there is a conviction that they are, in their crazy way, doing something right. Some of them might do it for monetary reasons - a few years ago Pakistanis snuck into India and went on a killing spree - most of these killers were poor young men - were they promised money?

And if some of these killers were urged to kill by their religious leaders, don't you think the promise of Heaven was not dangled in front of them? Of course it was

Your post on suicide killers is a bit disturbing - you do realize they are killing innocent people? Some of them children? I have heard of killers targeting the military but to apply the same rule to killers of innocents? That's a bit much of you

 

[Ramaraksha]

From the OP:
Not actually “celebrate”, no. But if you think death is totally unwelcome to all persons, that everyone fights against it tooth and nail, that’s a bold claim that’s demonstrably false when you find persons who show they’re ready to “move on” … or in Tom Sawyer’s example, ready to blow up… so I would advise against making big claims about what absolutely everyone does or doesn’t do.

About suicide bombers, they seem to be rather like persons who believe they must fight for everything in the way you describe people who aren’t “failures” … Studies indicate it has more to do with intense devotion to a group’s political cause. Suicide bombers are worried less about what their individual self gains or loses and concerned more about their group’s cause and proving their resolve is too strong to be defeated regardless how outgunned they may be.

Ya, that's like saying that someone who throws themselves on a grenade to save their friends is a failed person. Suicide bombers feel that they have a cause worth dying for. The fact that they're wrong and their cause is stupid doesn't change their motivations.

I have to say that is a horrible, demented analogy - the soldier who throws himself on a grenade was trying to save people - lesson the killings to just one person. A Suicide killer is all about mass killing of innocents - in your demented analogy, as a killer shoots people randomly, someone who tries to save your loved ones by blocking them with his body is no better than the suicide killer? What a sick thought

 

[Keith&Co.]

Ya, that's like saying that someone who throws themselves on a grenade to save their friends is a failed person. Suicide bombers feel that they have a cause worth dying for. The fact that they're wrong and their cause is stupid doesn't change their motivations.

I have to say that is a horrible, demented analogy - the soldier who throws himself on a grenade was trying to save people - lesson the killings to just one person. A Suicide killer is all about mass killing of innocents - in your demented analogy, as a killer shoots people randomly, someone who tries to save your loved ones by blocking them with his body is no better than the suicide killer? What a sick thought

How about kamikaze pilots, then? Killing not a random, but as many of the enemy as possible to protect the homeland? Are they exclusively recruited from failures?

 

[Ramaraksha]

I have to say that is a horrible, demented analogy - the soldier who throws himself on a grenade was trying to save people - lesson the killings to just one person. A Suicide killer is all about mass killing of innocents - in your demented analogy, as a killer shoots people randomly, someone who tries to save your loved ones by blocking them with his body is no better than the suicide killer? What a sick thought

How about kamikaze pilots, then? Killing not a random, but as many of the enemy as possible to protect the homeland? Are they exclusively recruited from failures?

The key here is whom they are killing - in war, i guess anything goes, but killing innocent people is still considered wrong. John Kerry was in the news recently, caught in a crossfire, he shot down innocent villagers - he has since apologized - some consider that he should be jailed for this crime

The kamikaze pilots were aiming at enemy ships and soldiers, not innocent people. The suicide killer makes sure that there is less of a chance of armed police or soldiers who can fight back, the total opposite

 

[ronburgundy]

to really fully believe something, anything, but also have a bodily instinct that doesn’t give a flying crap about whatever beliefs.

true. Hold your hand on the unbreakable glass while the rattlesnake strikes and don't flinch.

I think that is a bad analogy. The snake is a physical object coming at you, and thus the response a physical instinct. That is why beliefs don't have the power to stop the response.
However, dying in week is not an object coming at you. It is a concept, and a concept that is not innate but learned. People learn to fear death after they acquire a concept of self and ponder the notion of not existing any more. A person that sincerely believed they would continue to exist would not have that concept of death and thus would not fear it as an idea. Sure, they would still jump out of the way of a bus, but if you told them they would be hit by a bus next week and there is nothing they can do to stop it, this idea would not bother them.

I think the OP is correct in pointing out that the extremely rare instances of true acceptance of death and lack of fear of it among theists, reveals that almost no theists sincerely believe in the afterlife in the same way that they believe in things they have actually basis to believe in, such as that their car's brakes will almost certain work the next time they step on them. If this belief was pure faith like theism and afterlife, then most people would never get in a car. They would be constantly afraid whenever in a car that it would crash, just as they are now afraid of their own death because at some level they almost all know that faith has no correspondence to reality and their belief in heaven is really only a hope.

This is also why religious faith is so strongly tied to oppression and violence against doubters. The believers don't fully believe themselves, and thus must actively suppress all sources of doubt (within and outside themselves) in order to maintain the delusion.