The dog ate the IRS's homework.

[dismal]

It's worth noting that the public seems to have a different view of this than the rigorous Obama defenders on this forum:

I hope it’s no surprise that Americans tend to see this too-convenient email destruction for what it is. In a Fox News poll out today, 76 percent say the emails of Lerner and six other IRS officials were deliberately destroyed; 12 percent buy the oops-accident excuse.

Unsurprisingly, 90 percent of Republicans and 74 percent of independents are of a suspicious mind. What should have the Obama administration rethinking their strategy so far is that 63 percent of Democrats and 62 percent of self-identified liberals also believe the email destruction was no accident.

Because that means, by a 3-to-1 margin, even Democrats and/or liberals believe a crime was committed somewhere in the IRS with the intentional destruction of government records.

I don't imagine this will sway anyone here, but it certainly raises the issue of whether the Democrats are playing the politics of this issue right.

And why the apologists are so curiously ineffective.

http://dallasmorningviewsblog.dalla...-1-believe-someone-at-irs-broke-the-law.html/

 

[coloradoatheist]

What makes you think there weren't more drives that were intact? An intact drive isn't newsworthy and wouldn't be reported other than possibly as a total.

There would need to be significant failure rates of all drives ie 75% before seven specifically requested drives being unavailable is plausible in an investigation.

But how many others were requested and delivered?

And there might be some dirty pool going on here: What if they deliberately requested the drives they knew to be unavailable? (If they had that information I would think such an action would be likely--these things are about trying to bring down Obama, not about the truth. The Republicans have been doing this since the Clinton era.)

How would "they" know which drives had failed?

It was not even revealed until recently that Lois Lerner's email was not available. Indeed one of the bizarre elements of the disclosure is that it took so long for them to own up to it, and flat out lied that all her e-mails would be forthcoming.

You are straining awfully hard. I hope you are getting some sort of check for it.

Also, here's one I haven't heard come up yet that maybe the apologists can get a head start on: why weren't Lois Lerner's (and the other 6's) e-mails restored from back up immediately following the crash?

I'm thinking of someone in the IRSs IT department that tipped off the mudslingers about whose drives had died.

- - - Updated - - -

most places she would have to put in the ticket to get her email restored, so she probably just started over with no emails. Though most people don't like not having their past emails.

She wouldn't have lost *ALL* her e-mail--the 500mb still on the server would be fine. All she would have lost would be the archives.

Yes. But it also depends on what she was deleting and how much she saved and if she saved it all too. It was a very stupid policy of the IRS to have the employees keep track of their emails.

 

[laughing dog]

It is certainly possible that the IRS is telling the truth about the emails, but that does not validate their excuse. Nor does it validate their misbehavior. Nor does it validate the demagoguery of the Republicans on this issue that the IRS was only targeting conservative groups.

 

[prideandfall]

It's worth noting that the public seems to have a different view of this than the rigorous Obama defenders on this forum:

I hope it’s no surprise that Americans tend to see this too-convenient email destruction for what it is. In a Fox News poll out today, 76 percent say the emails of Lerner and six other IRS officials were deliberately destroyed; 12 percent buy the oops-accident excuse.

Unsurprisingly, 90 percent of Republicans and 74 percent of independents are of a suspicious mind. What should have the Obama administration rethinking their strategy so far is that 63 percent of Democrats and 62 percent of self-identified liberals also believe the email destruction was no accident.

Because that means, by a 3-to-1 margin, even Democrats and/or liberals believe a crime was committed somewhere in the IRS with the intentional destruction of government records.

I don't imagine this will sway anyone here, but it certainly raises the issue of whether the Democrats are playing the politics of this issue right.

And why the apologists are so curiously ineffective.

http://dallasmorningviewsblog.dalla...-1-believe-someone-at-irs-broke-the-law.html/

bwahahahahahahaha.

"oh lookit a poll conducted by a right-wing apologist propaganda channel of its right-wing propaganda-consuming audience finds that 3/4th of them believe the total bullshit we're spewing day in and day out!"

in another shocking twist that finally gives concrete evidence for man's greatest mysteries, 83% of christians say they believe god exists, so clearly god exists ipso facto.

 

[ksen]

It's worth noting that the public seems to have a different view of this than the rigorous Obama defenders on this forum:

I hope it’s no surprise that Americans tend to see this too-convenient email destruction for what it is. In a Fox News poll out today, 76 percent say the emails of Lerner and six other IRS officials were deliberately destroyed; 12 percent buy the oops-accident excuse.

Unsurprisingly, 90 percent of Republicans and 74 percent of independents are of a suspicious mind. What should have the Obama administration rethinking their strategy so far is that 63 percent of Democrats and 62 percent of self-identified liberals also believe the email destruction was no accident.

Because that means, by a 3-to-1 margin, even Democrats and/or liberals believe a crime was committed somewhere in the IRS with the intentional destruction of government records.

I don't imagine this will sway anyone here, but it certainly raises the issue of whether the Democrats are playing the politics of this issue right.

And why the apologists are so curiously ineffective.

http://dallasmorningviewsblog.dalla...-1-believe-someone-at-irs-broke-the-law.html/

bwahahahahahahaha.

"oh lookit a poll conducted by a right-wing apologist propaganda channel of its right-wing propaganda-consuming audience finds that 3/4th of them believe the total bullshit we're spewing day in and day out!"

in another shocking twist that finally gives concrete evidence for man's greatest mysteries, 83% of christians say they believe god exists, so clearly god exists ipso facto.

I was kind of shocked it was only 76%.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

It is certainly possible that the IRS is telling the truth about the emails, but that does not validate their excuse. Nor does it validate their misbehavior. Nor does it validate the demagoguery of the Republicans on this issue that the IRS was only targeting conservative groups.

Even with all the caveats that's still a pretty impressive admission from you.

 

[dismal]

It's worth noting that the public seems to have a different view of this than the rigorous Obama defenders on this forum:

I hope it’s no surprise that Americans tend to see this too-convenient email destruction for what it is. In a Fox News poll out today, 76 percent say the emails of Lerner and six other IRS officials were deliberately destroyed; 12 percent buy the oops-accident excuse.

Unsurprisingly, 90 percent of Republicans and 74 percent of independents are of a suspicious mind. What should have the Obama administration rethinking their strategy so far is that 63 percent of Democrats and 62 percent of self-identified liberals also believe the email destruction was no accident.

Because that means, by a 3-to-1 margin, even Democrats and/or liberals believe a crime was committed somewhere in the IRS with the intentional destruction of government records.

I don't imagine this will sway anyone here, but it certainly raises the issue of whether the Democrats are playing the politics of this issue right.

And why the apologists are so curiously ineffective.

http://dallasmorningviewsblog.dalla...-1-believe-someone-at-irs-broke-the-law.html/

bwahahahahahahaha.

"oh lookit a poll conducted by a right-wing apologist propaganda channel of its right-wing propaganda-consuming audience finds that 3/4th of them believe the total bullshit we're spewing day in and day out!"

in another shocking twist that finally gives concrete evidence for man's greatest mysteries, 83% of christians say they believe god exists, so clearly god exists ipso facto.

Wow, now who could have predicted that response?

Feel free to cite a left wing apologist poll of your choice, though you may find they are working very hard to say "Nanananananana-this IRS thing isn't happening" instead of polling people about it.

It must be quite an ongoing challenge for Obama fanboys and apologists to rationalize Obama's ongoing suckage in the polls.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yes. But it also depends on what she was deleting and how much she saved and if she saved it all too. It was a very stupid policy of the IRS to have the employees keep track of their emails.

I don't think it was a policy. Rather, it happened because some beancounter skimped on mailbox space.

 

[coloradoatheist]

Yes. But it also depends on what she was deleting and how much she saved and if she saved it all too. It was a very stupid policy of the IRS to have the employees keep track of their emails.

I don't think it was a policy. Rather, it happened because some beancounter skimped on mailbox space.

Except it was policy of, keep the email you need to keep on your own workstation and not have it be backed up for years. I'm not saying it's only a problem at the IRS. I do think this is an issue with a lot of companies.

 

[prideandfall]

Wow, now who could have predicted that response?

anyone with enough brains to see how patently ridiculously stupid it was for you to post such a ludicrously pointless and irrelevant poll.

Feel free to cite a left wing apologist poll of your choice, though you may find they are working very hard to say "Nanananananana-this IRS thing isn't happening" instead of polling people about it.

as usual, your partisan blinders make you incapable of seeing the actual point.
you were trying to use a viewership poll to somehow magically validate this smoke-and-mirrors bullshit "scandal" that you've got such a raging boner for - THAT is what is so funny and pathetic, not that it was by right-wingers, of right-wingers, to prove that the opinions of right-wingers reinforce the views of right-wingers... though that part is sad and tragic in-and-of-itself as well.

It must be quite an ongoing challenge for Obama fanboys and apologists to rationalize Obama's ongoing suckage in the polls.

how is this comment in any way remotely relevant?
firstly, are there even any obama 'fanboys' on this forum?
secondly, what does his poll numbers have to do with the fact that this IRS 'scandal' is quite literally a partisan delusion on your part?

 

[prideandfall]

Yes. But it also depends on what she was deleting and how much she saved and if she saved it all too. It was a very stupid policy of the IRS to have the employees keep track of their emails.

I don't think it was a policy. Rather, it happened because some beancounter skimped on mailbox space.

Except it was policy of, keep the email you need to keep on your own workstation and not have it be backed up for years. I'm not saying it's only a problem at the IRS. I do think this is an issue with a lot of companies.

but then again it comes back to the policy as it's worded.
the policy (which has been linked in this thread a couple of times now) says "make sure anything relevant or important to the department or the specifics of your work gets backed up" and then leaves it up to the individual to decide what is or isn't important.

now, coming from the perspective of both the IRS employees involved and anyone that isn't sharing in a mass right-wing hallucination, it's pretty clearly obvious that any emails regarding the whole situation with the IRS looking more closely at groups asking for tax-exempt status wouldn't fall under the auspice of "relevant or important to the department or the specifics of your work", and i don't see any reason why anyone should expect that those emails were required to be backed up in the first place, or actually backed up.

 

[dismal]

anyone with enough brains to see how patently ridiculously stupid it was for you to post such a ludicrously pointless and irrelevant poll.

Feel free to cite a left wing apologist poll of your choice, though you may find they are working very hard to say "Nanananananana-this IRS thing isn't happening" instead of polling people about it.

as usual, your partisan blinders make you incapable of seeing the actual point.
you were trying to use a viewership poll to somehow magically validate this smoke-and-mirrors bullshit "scandal" that you've got such a raging boner for - THAT is what is so funny and pathetic, not that it was by right-wingers, of right-wingers, to prove that the opinions of right-wingers reinforce the views of right-wingers... though that part is sad and tragic in-and-of-itself as well.

It must be quite an ongoing challenge for Obama fanboys and apologists to rationalize Obama's ongoing suckage in the polls.

how is this comment in any way remotely relevant?
firstly, are there even any obama 'fanboys' on this forum?
secondly, what does his poll numbers have to do with the fact that this IRS 'scandal' is quite literally a partisan delusion on your part?

You are the one with your hands over your ears going "NANANANANANANANANANANANA".

If you have some facts or evidence you think is better than the poll I cited please produce it.

 

[coloradoatheist]

Yes. But it also depends on what she was deleting and how much she saved and if she saved it all too. It was a very stupid policy of the IRS to have the employees keep track of their emails.

I don't think it was a policy. Rather, it happened because some beancounter skimped on mailbox space.

Except it was policy of, keep the email you need to keep on your own workstation and not have it be backed up for years. I'm not saying it's only a problem at the IRS. I do think this is an issue with a lot of companies.

but then again it comes back to the policy as it's worded.
the policy (which has been linked in this thread a couple of times now) says "make sure anything relevant or important to the department or the specifics of your work gets backed up" and then leaves it up to the individual to decide what is or isn't important.

now, coming from the perspective of both the IRS employees involved and anyone that isn't sharing in a mass right-wing hallucination, it's pretty clearly obvious that any emails regarding the whole situation with the IRS looking more closely at groups asking for tax-exempt status wouldn't fall under the auspice of "relevant or important to the department or the specifics of your work", and i don't see any reason why anyone should expect that those emails were required to be backed up in the first place, or actually backed up.

Huh? Those emails should be kept. The question really is by whom when it applies to a company. If it's General Motors and their engineers saying the car is faulty, who should be backing up the emails, GM or the individual?

 

[prideandfall]

If you have some facts or evidence you think is better than the poll I cited please produce it.

i have cited facts and evidence numerous times in this thread, and a half-blind poodle with a dead sparrow in its mouth and an old cooking pot on its head that is howling itself deaf while being whacked in the knackers with a woodsman axe is "better evidence" than any single thing you've posted in this thread, so you might want to see about checking whether or not that smug has any remotely valid justification.

there are 3 very simple and unassailable facts in evidence in this case:
1. all types of political groups were targeted for extra scrutiny, and only progressive/liberal groups were actually denied tax exempt status, so this isn't some anti-conservative conspiracy like you're trying to pretend it is.
2. there is no reasonable or valid evidence to support an assertion that either A. these emails "should" have been archived in the first place or that B. the lost emails were the result of malicious intent.
3. so far as i know, nobody and nothing in this case has broken any laws or violated any policy or code of conduct - extra scrutiny to 501c4 applications is within the authority of the IRS, the only thing in question here is the criteria by which certain persons picked groups for review.

as much as some people of a certain ideological bent desperately want this whole thing to be about a cigar-chomping commie nigger coming after them to take their guns and white women away, so that you can validate their paranoia and emotional over-reaction to basically everything, the purely objective facts is that this is nothing, founded on nothing, which harmed nobody.

 

[prideandfall]

Huh? Those emails should be kept.

why?
i don't mean that rhetorically, i mean looking at this from the perspective of an adherence to the IRS archiving policy as its worded and the point-of-view of the people involved, what reason would there have been to archive those emails?

If it's General Motors and their engineers saying the car is faulty, who should be backing up the emails, GM or the individual?

if it's general motors saying that someone should take an extra look at the passenger-side seat back recliner to make sure it has an adequate number of resting-state holders, who should be backing that up?

 

[coloradoatheist]

why?
i don't mean that rhetorically, i mean looking at this from the perspective of an adherence to the IRS archiving policy as its worded and the point-of-view of the people involved, what reason would there have been to archive those emails?

Are you saying that no documents should be backed up?

if it's general motors saying that someone should take an extra look at the passenger-side seat back recliner to make sure it has an adequate number of resting-state holders, who should be backing that up?

It would be individuals at General Motors who made the decision and it would be emails from engineers saying that the something was broken. What would the courts rule in terms of what documents needed to be kept by General Motors and individuals at general motors?

 

[prideandfall]

Are you saying that no documents should be backed up?

why on earth would you ask me that? how is anything i said remotely leading to that conclusion?

what i said, very specifically, and will say again for the benefit of anyone who's having trouble keeping up:
given the policy and how it's worded, and given the perspective of the people involved, what reason would there have been for them to back up or archive these particular emails, per the IRS guidelines?

It would be individuals at General Motors who made the decision and it would be emails from engineers saying that the something was broken.

who said anything about anything being broken?

What would the courts rule in terms of what documents needed to be kept by General Motors and individuals at general motors?

relevance?

 

[coloradoatheist]

So emails discussing the policy of how the IRS conducts audits should not be something that is retained? I'll try and go back and find what the listings for the IRS policies are. But I said it's funny that the IRS can ask you to keep your gas station receipt for 7 years but they can't keep emails regarding audit policies more than six months.

 

[ksen]

The IRS was auditing these groups?

I thought they were just processing routine paperwork and just wanted to verify that groups with politically charged names were not engaging in politics so they could approve their tax-exempt status?

And since they were all approved why keep the emails around?

 

[coloradoatheist]

The IRS was auditing these groups?

I thought they were just processing routine paperwork and just wanted to verify that groups with politically charged names were not engaging in politics so they could approve their tax-exempt status?

And since they were all approved why keep the emails around?

Only 4 tea party groups were approved in 2010 and 2011. Once the scandal broke they started approving them at a greater rate.