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When Literalists have to literally lie to sell their literal truth (AKA Adventures in Ark-itecture)

Keith&Co. said:
Fine, if you want to play that way.
Then why did God dictate a measurement to Moses if we're unable to accurately use such information?
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I don't share your belief that God was giving Moses technical data about cubits so that we could all "use" that information.


Keith&Co. said:
But one that's pure invention on your, or anyone else's part.
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Nope. I'm happy with the text just as it is.
But if you are going to speculate beyond the text, I'm happy to engage in counter-speculation.
If Flood skeptics are going to read stuff into the text which isn't there, Ken Ham can be forgiven for a bit of 'creative license'.

Keith&Co. said:
...Some apologists have tried to say that Moses, being raised in the Royal Court, used the Egyptian cubit when he wrote The Books, which was slightly bigger than the Hebrew cubit. Thus they can sneak an increase in the size of the ark into the narrative, though it's entirely unsupported by the narrative.
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Sure. But I still maintain that it doesn't matter because the text is what it is and the biblical Flood events don't hinge on the precise empirical dimensions of the Arc. People are free to speculate because in many areas the text is open to speculation.

Keith&Co. said:
...But the structural integrity of the ark would be an important point, no? It's not presented as a raft, but as a three-story barge. A wooden ship that big would not be terribly seaworthy. It would break apart. The gopher wood flotsam would float, but no longer as An Ark.
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The Arc was designed to float - that's all.
 
Lion IRC said:
I don't share your belief that God was giving Moses technical data about cubits so that we could all "use" that information.
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But that's exactly what the Bible says. That ALL verses are for our instruction.
If we're going to pretend that the word 'cubit' merely looks like something we could understand, but is in fact a completely mysterious measurement, then we've got to reject one or another biblical verse. Either cubit doesn't mean a cubit, or not all verses are actually useful.
Either way, that's one in the eye for the literalists.
Keith&Co. said:
...But the structural integrity of the ark would be an important point, no? It's not presented as a raft, but as a three-story barge. A wooden ship that big would not be terribly seaworthy. It would break apart. The gopher wood flotsam would float, but no longer as An Ark.
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The Arc was designed to float - that's all.
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But that's just it, it's not designed to float. As a castle, it makes a good warehouse. As a ship, once it's waterborne, it's driftwood waiting for the first time the ship flexes. It probably wouldn't even outlast the flooding of the drydock.
 
Lion IRC said:
funinspace said:
... I think that the best critique is pointing out the geological history of the earth, whether it is the tree ring continuum, or the age of reefs, or the continuum of ice core samples goes back well beyond any date that these people have for their fairy tale.
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How is the Noachian Flood inconsistent with the age of reefs or ice cores? And don't understand how tree rings would be affected. The Flood story doesn't report that all trees died.
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Per Genesis (NASB) 7:18-20 "The water prevailed and increased greatly upon the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the water. The water prevailed more and more upon the earth, so that all the high mountains everywhere under the heavens were covered. The water prevailed fifteen cubits higher, and the mountains were covered." The highest altitude tree lines in the world are about 16,000 ft. The world has hundreds of mountain peaks that are thousands of feet higher than this. Do you really think that trees would survive being submerged in a muddy brackish mess for months like this.

Anywho, getting beyond another set of miracle cards... We have a continuum of ice core samples going back roughly 800,000 years. These would not survive a "Noachian Flood". So are you going for the Deluge happening even before 800,000 years ago? Or maybe your god is a trickster god? Or?
 
Keith&Co. said:
But that's just it, it's not designed to float. As a castle, it makes a good warehouse. As a ship, once it's waterborne, it's driftwood waiting for the first time the ship flexes. It probably wouldn't even outlast the flooding of the drydock.
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The gopher wood had god magical forces within it, so the force would keep it together :cheeky:
 
funinspace said:
Keith&Co. said:
But that's just it, it's not designed to float. As a castle, it makes a good warehouse. As a ship, once it's waterborne, it's driftwood waiting for the first time the ship flexes. It probably wouldn't even outlast the flooding of the drydock.
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The gopher wood had god magical forces within it, so the force would keep it together :cheeky:
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I'm pretty sure I've actually seen this defense before. I used to argue the Noah's ark thing, but seesh, it's just embarrassing now. Not for my interlocutor, but for me. I literally get red faced on their behalf. It's just well, silly.

Besides, the epic of Gilgamesh is much more entertaining than the Noah story, although the Noah story has the nice family moment at the end of it all after Noah gets all liquored up.
 
braces_for_impact said:
funinspace said:
The gopher wood had god magical forces within it, so the force would keep it together :cheeky:
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I'm pretty sure I've actually seen this defense before. I used to argue the Noah's ark thing, but seesh, it's just embarrassing now. Not for my interlocutor, but for me. I literally get red faced on their behalf. It's just well, silly.
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I wasn't making it up, other than the levity part...I've read it before as well.

Besides, the epic of Gilgamesh is much more entertaining than the Noah story, although the Noah story has the nice family moment at the end of it all after Noah gets all liquored up.
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I agree. And the oldest Gilgamesh copy is way older than anything from the Jews, being nearly 4,000 years old.
 
Learner said:
Just not in any way you can demonstrate.
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That they never existed or I have not seen one myself?
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That discoveries are being revealed that support the existence of giants...

It just seems logical by one example; the sheer gargantuan ruins of Baalbek in Lebanon.
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You use 'logic' in a funny way. What's the logical chain from 'people built big buildings' to 'they must have been giants?'
How do you dismiss the possibility that they were arrogant, ambitious, or just enthusiastic, instead?
 
Learner said:
That they never existed or I have not seen one myself?
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It depends on what one calls a giant. People six and a half feet tall would appear to be giants for people who rarely, if ever, saw anyone over five and a half feet tall.
It just seems logical by one example; the sheer gargantuan ruins of Baalbek in Lebanon. It may all be totally wrong but I just can't see it some how.
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Certainly you are not judging people's height by the size of edifices they erect are you? The Hagia Sophia and the people who built that church were certainly not giants and it is a gigantic building. There is also no reason to believe that only giants could have built the U.S. Capitol building which is another huge edifice.
 
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15% more room wouldn't solve the logistical problems of the ark myth anyway, and as Keith&Co mentioned it would only exacerbate the already impossible problem of keeping a wooden boat of those dimensions afloat on deep sea water for more than a few days.

But the boat's size and construction is only the tip of the iceberg metaphorically speaking when it comes to realistically looking at this story's plausibility. The NonStampCollector videos (Part 1 and Part 2) do a decent (and humorous) job of exploring many of the other problems.

The flood described in this myth didn't happen. Well it could have happened with a lot of intervention from a god I suppose, but once we start down that path  Last Thursdayism is as good a working hypothesis. Noah's Ark and George Washington become products of the same illusion.
 
Atheos said:
The flood described in this myth didn't happen. Well it could have happened with a lot of intervention from a god I suppose, but once we start down that path  Last Thursdayism is as good a working hypothesis. Noah's Ark and George Washington become products of the same illusion.
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LOL...hadn't heard of Last Thursdayism...tis funny; and much like the Matrix construct. But actually, it is worse than even that as a working hypothesis, which is why I pointed out in my Post #5 'So either the Deluge is a fairy tale, or their God is a deceiving trickster. Of course there is still "la la la...I'll just pretend reality isn't real"....'. Fundagelicals are stuck either making the absurd claim that scientists can't properly evaluate ice core samples going back 800,000 years, or having to accept that they worship a deceiving trickster Loki style god.

The 17th unmentioned Yahweh miracle, can always have an 18th tacked on. But it is harder for most fundagelicals to posit a trickster god. Cuz...well fuck then, heaven and hell would be completely unreliable promises/threats as they would be asking people to trust a trickster. This kind of reminds me of one of the things that I will sometimes throw out when hellish conversations go weird: that maybe only the people who accept the notion of eternal torment for the masses as a moral construct will be actually be sent to this hellish notion.
 
Keith&Co. said:
That discoveries are being revealed that support the existence of giants...

You use 'logic' in a funny way. What's the logical chain from 'people built big buildings' to 'they must have been giants?'
How do you dismiss the possibility that they were arrogant, ambitious, or just enthusiastic, instead?
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If there were no giants then you may have highlighted on something. Noah and his peeps were 'arrogant,ambitious, and quite enthusiastic.'
 
You realize, of course, that it is just as plausible that all life forms on the planet except humans were only 1/10 their current size at the time of the flood, and that every last one of them hibernated through the trip which saved on feeding and waste-removal logistical problems. Still doesn't address how enough oxygen was circulated through the single window to provide adequate air for all the animals but we'll ignore that for a moment and focus on what happens when these animals wake up and are hungry. Vegetation would have been scarce for the herbivores, and carnivores would just have to hold off a few years before predating, otherwise every meal they ate would be an extinction-level event for some other species.

Magic, magic magic magic magic. Maaaaaagic, magic magic magic magic magic.
 
Learner said:
Keith&Co. said:
That discoveries are being revealed that support the existence of giants...

You use 'logic' in a funny way. What's the logical chain from 'people built big buildings' to 'they must have been giants?'
How do you dismiss the possibility that they were arrogant, ambitious, or just enthusiastic, instead?
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If there were no giants then you may have highlighted on something. Noah and his peeps were 'arrogant,ambitious, and quite enthusiastic.'
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Psssst ...

Psssst ...

There was no Noah, there was no flood, and the only Ark is the one they just built in Kentucky as an exercise in separating fools from their money.
 
And the magic around the fishes in the deep blue sea; as they were magically insulated from saline overdose and deprivation, along with the muck....
 
Atheos said:
Magic, magic magic magic magic. Maaaaaagic, magic magic magic magic magic.
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lol Ok Atheos , God said to Neo I mean Noah," Is that oxygen you think you are breathing?" I can program or rather I can create anything at will being the Lord Almighty.
Where do you think some of the ideas of the matrix came from?
 
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AthenaAwakened said:
Psssst ...

Psssst ...

There was no Noah, there was no flood, and the only Ark is the one they just built in Kentucky as an exercise in separating fools from their money.
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What .. whos that behind me? I've seen the movies including the one with Russell Crowe and it seemed realistic to me.
 
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