When Literalists have to literally lie to sell their literal truth (AKA Adventures in Ark-itecture)

[Learner]

Dont mind me .. just in a little banter mode from rushing about all day.

 

[atrib]

I am just waiting for someone with more time on their hands than I have, to figure up the total mass, weight, and density of TWO of every creature on earth and then show you can't fit them all in this monstrosity (even if they were all babies).

Why two of every creature on earth today?
That wouldn't necessarily be the same number as the theoretical number in Noah's Ark.
You're guessing aren't you? Artistic license?

What number should it be? Go on, I am waiting for you to provide us with hard data.

- - - Updated - - -

So then what would the point be in writing that the boat was X cubits long, if the value of a cubit was going to be such a mystery?
Why would Moses have recorded completely meaningless values that way?

The measurements were for Noah's benefit - not Moses'
Noah knew how big a cubit was in the time he was measuring and building.
What difference would it make to Moses ? ? ?

Hey cool fact...a nautical mile is 15% longer than a standard mile.
Imagine how many more animals you could fit into an Arc that was 15% bigger?

Would an ark that was 15% bigger be able to fit all the animals on boards with sufficient provisions to feed and care for them over this incredible voyage. Go on, I am waiting for you to come up with some hard facts.

 

[atrib]

Not for me. Not for literalists. Who is troubled by these alleged problems?

...The typical fundagelical believer, simply uses the "its a miracle" card to pretend that those dozens of absurdities are within their God's realm.

Well, no biblical theist I know claims the Flood occurred WITHOUT divine intervention.
So it's gotta be hard (and frustrating) for bible skeptics to try and find defeaters for the 'miracle' trump card.

... I think that the best critique is pointing out the geological history of the earth, whether it is the tree ring continuum, or the age of reefs, or the continuum of ice core samples goes back well beyond any date that these people have for their fairy tale.

How is the Noachian Flood inconsistent with the age of reefs or ice cores? And don't understand how tree rings would be affected. The Flood story doesn't report that all trees died.

The Biblical flood is not consistent with any of the evidence available to us today. A flood of the proportions described would have left an enormous volume of evidence in the geological record, not to mention in the genetic record of all the animals that were supposedly saved by the Biblical ark. Yet no such evidence exists. Go on, prove me wrong. Point to the volumes of geological publications that describe the physical evidence for the flood, or the mountains of scientific publications that report on the genetic bottlenecks that would result from such an event. Go on, produce some hard facts.

 

[atrib]

Um...who wrote the first five books of the Books, Lion? Traditionally? Including the measurement of the Boat's dimensions?

God did.
Moses didn't make that story up. Moses wasn't guessing how many cubits long or wide. Neither was he in any position to argue.

...Noah knew how big a cubit was in the time he was measuring and building.

Yeah, sure.

Indeed. And that was Learner's point.

...
What difference would it make to Moses ? ? ?

as above...

I'm not sure what the measurements have to do with Moses.
Why would he care?

...Hey cool fact...a nautical mile is 15% longer than a standard mile.

Um... You're inventing a nautical cubit? Seriously?

Wut?
No. I'm pointing out that the word 'cubit' like the word 'mile' cannot be assumed to be an empirical, unchanging measurement. If a cubit in Noah's time was 15% different to some other nominal cubit then obviously that would be an interesting factor.

...
Imagine how many more animals you could fit into an Arc that was 15% bigger?

Fewer, really.
Wooden ships that big would need so much internal support in order to float, there'd be less room for animals or crew.

Floatation is a matter of buoyancy (displacement of water/volume) not internal structural support.
Plus, last time I checked, wood floats.

The ark would be required to weather a storm flood event that is unparalleled in human history. Modern naval engineers would be hard pressed to design a large vessel housing millions of lives today that could hold up in a Category 5 Hurricane, much less the Biblical flood. I am curious to know how a simple vessel made out of gopherwood would be able to ride out the storm. Go on, produce some hard facts to support your claims. Oh wait, you people don't do facts and evidence.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

I am just waiting for someone with more time on their hands than I have, to figure up the total mass, weight, and density of TWO of every creature on earth and then show you can't fit them all in this monstrosity (even if they were all babies).

Why two of every creature on earth today?
That wouldn't necessarily be the same number as the theoretical number in Noah's Ark.
You're guessing aren't you? Artistic license?

No.
But you're right It wouldn't be the same. We have killed off a lot species since this flood is supposed to have happened so the number on the ark would have more.

By just asking for the animals today, I'm trying to help the creationists out.

 

[bigfield]

Turns out that the Ark would have needed eight giraffes, not two:

Giraffe genetic secret: Four species of tallest mammal identified
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-37311716

Matthew Cobb, professor of zoology at the University of Manchester explained that the "four groups of giraffes had "been separated for 1-2 million years, with no evidence of genes being exchanged between them".

That's a lot of extra headroom.

 

[Learner]

According to this ancient Egyptian depiction on the right,there were big people in those days. Thought provoking in any case.

 

[Keith&Co.]

According to this ancient Egyptian depiction on the right,there were big people in those days. Thought provoking in any case.

They also portayed people with dog heads and cat heads and jackal heads and falcon heads... Does that mean you tend to believe such people existed?

 

[Atheos]

Magic, magic magic magic magic. Maaaaaagic, magic magic magic magic magic.

lol Ok Atheos , God said to Neo I mean Noah," Is that oxygen you think you are breathing?" I can program or rather I can create anything at will being the Lord Almighty.
Where do you think some of the ideas of the matrix came from?

And that's exactly my point. Once you start invoking magic the whole story becomes even more absurd. Why bother with all the drama when you can just write a quick routine to purge out of existence everything you don't want to salvage? Is the "Lord Almighty" so unmerciful that he'd rather watch the horror and hear the screams of millions of children struggling for one more breath? The same god who could turn Lot's wife into a pillar of salt could just as easily turn millions of humans into topsoil. Problem solved and orders of magnitude less suffering involved for everyone.

 

[funinspace]

According to this ancient Egyptian depiction on the right,there were big people in those days. Thought provoking in any case.

According to author Zecharia Sitchin, developed in the book 'The 12th Planet', humanity originated from aliens and is recorded within Sumerian mythology. Sitchin also stated that these aliens are called the Nephilim in Genesis. Thought provoking for sure....

 

[Atheos]

WOW

All this discussion about the Noah myth got me interested enough to go back and read it again. It's been a long time. It's a very short story, taking well under 10 minutes to read in its entirety.

Anyway, over the years I'd heard rationalizations that included the possibility that the animals slept through the entire voyage, eliminating the logistical issue of having to store food as well as the daunting task of feeding and waste removal.

Evidently such apologists hadn't actually read the story themselves in a long time.

Gen 6

:21 And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them.

The previous two verses let us know who "them" is (hint, it wasn't Noah's family).

Gen 6

:19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.
:20 Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.

So food storage would have been a concern as well as waste removal. Tough job for only 8 people...

 

[funinspace]

Come on Atheos, are you suggesting that this tale was finalized by 1st millennia BC goat herders who only knew of a few hundred animals? I mean what is so hard about gathering a bunch of bamboo for the 2 panda bears? And they would only have to just build a little extra in the beaver cage, so they have food. I mean how hard would it be for them to gather krill, fish, and squid for the penguins? Though getting more than a few ant hives in place for the 10 or so anteaters species might be a bit of a challenge...

 

[Learner]

They also portayed people with dog heads and cat heads and jackal heads and falcon heads... Does that mean you tend to believe such people existed?

Good point. By Christian belief at least, these people could obviously come under the category of demons, false gods or magicians. Belief aside , we could imagine and examine and try make sense the human perspective of these depictions for example one could imagine that these were deceitful powerful men portraying themselves as animal gods with masks. That would certainly create a mass of fearful woshipers.

 

[bigfield]

View attachment 8066
According to this ancient Egyptian depiction on the right,there were big people in those days. Thought provoking in any case.

Is it a giant hand or a tiny person?


I applaud your imagination in interpreting the Egyptian art, but the most mundane explanation is the most likely one: the artist drew an inaccurately-small giraffe for some reason--probably to fit it in the panel.

 

[Angry Floof]

They also portayed people with dog heads and cat heads and jackal heads and falcon heads... Does that mean you tend to believe such people existed?

By Christian belief at least, these people could obviously come under the category of demons, false gods or magicians.

By Christian belief, anyone and anything can conveniently come under the category of demons, false gods, or magicians.

 

[funinspace]

Is it a giant hand or a tiny person?

It is a tiny hand with a Who in a ring...

 

[Learner]

And that's exactly my point. Once you start invoking magic the whole story becomes even more absurd. Why bother with all the drama when you can just write a quick routine to purge out of existence everything you don't want to salvage?

Is the "Lord Almighty" so unmerciful that he'd rather watch the horror and hear the screams of millions of children struggling for one more breath? The same god who could turn Lot's wife into a pillar of salt could just as easily turn millions of humans into topsoil. Problem solved and orders of magnitude less suffering involved for everyone.

I believe it pains God to see this suffering. The prophecy has to be fulfilled and God does not break his word or promises. The whole understanding from Christians is there is a better future.

Revelations 21.4
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

 

[Learner]

I applaud your imagination in interpreting the Egyptian art, but the most mundane explanation is the most likely one: the artist drew an inaccurately-small giraffe for some reason--probably to fit it in the panel.

Why can't my explanation be a mundane one too? I've only shown one of quite a few that exists out there.

 

[Angry Floof]

And that's exactly my point. Once you start invoking magic the whole story becomes even more absurd. Why bother with all the drama when you can just write a quick routine to purge out of existence everything you don't want to salvage?

Is the "Lord Almighty" so unmerciful that he'd rather watch the horror and hear the screams of millions of children struggling for one more breath? The same god who could turn Lot's wife into a pillar of salt could just as easily turn millions of humans into topsoil. Problem solved and orders of magnitude less suffering involved for everyone.

I believe it pains God to see this suffering. The prophecy has to be fulfilled and God does not break his word or promises. The whole understanding from Christians is there is a better future.

It pains God to see the suffering he himself created. What a twisted cult.

Revelations 21.4
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

This God is such an obvious human-created abuser. Punish and torment, make the victims believe it's their own fault, then promise relief. This is clear, textbook psychological abuse.

 

[Iznomneak]

You realize, of course, that it is just as plausible that all life forms on the planet except humans were only 1/10 their current size at the time of the flood, and that every last one of them hibernated through the trip which saved on feeding and waste-removal logistical problems. Still doesn't address how enough oxygen was circulated through the single window to provide adequate air for all the animals but we'll ignore that for a moment and focus on what happens when these animals wake up and are hungry. Vegetation would have been scarce for the herbivores, and carnivores would just have to hold off a few years before predating, otherwise every meal they ate would be an extinction-level event for some other species.

Magic, magic magic magic magic. Maaaaaagic, magic magic magic magic magic.

Another possibility is that Noah had a Tardis. Or maybe the ark was more like pasta which expands when you put it in water. Magic is fun.