Gun bans prevent mass shootings

[Loren Pechtel]

It's been a mantra of the gun-banners on here.

Oops:

Australia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Hectorville_siege

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Sydney_hostage_crisis

England:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumbria_shootings

 

[LordKiran]

It's been a mantra of the gun-banners on here.

Oops:

Australia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Hectorville_siege

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Sydney_hostage_crisis

England:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumbria_shootings

You do know neither of those countries ban ALL firearms right?

Personally I don't support firearm bans or gun-free-zones as I find them either pointless or impractical solutions for where I live, but if you're going to contest the efficacy of fire-arm bans or restrictions as a universal concept, you're going to need to do better than three Wikipedia links.

 

[fromderinside]

Gun bans prevent mass shootings

It's been a mantra of the gun-banners on here.

Oops:

Australia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Hectorville_siege

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Sydney_hostage_crisis

England:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumbria_shootings

OK about 100 million people had four mass shootings in six years.

The following is not an indictment of Obama since if one cares to look mass shootings in the US have taken place regularly since the eighties. I just use it to put scale on the number os shootings in the US with 300 million people. Between 2010 and now there have been at least 16 mass shootings in the US.

15 Other Times President Obama Had to Address Mass Shootings During His Presidency http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slat...had_to_address_mass_shootings_during_his.html

What one probably should conclude is that in western English speaking democracies the rate of shootings in the US is about 3 per year and in GB and AU about 1/2 per year. Corrected for population differences that would be about a two to one rate between guns non banned and banned countries in mass shootings.

I think a that a halving of mass shooting is important. So I agree that banning guns, especially weapons used for war, from being possessed is a good thing.

IOW Loren Pechtel,"Oops" isn't appropriate. but, it should be changed to significantly reduced.

 

[LordKiran]

Gun bans prevent mass shootings

It's been a mantra of the gun-banners on here.

Oops:

Australia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Hectorville_siege

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Sydney_hostage_crisis

England:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumbria_shootings

OK about 100 million people had four mass shootings in six years.

The following is not an indictment of Obama since if one cares to look mass shootings in the US have taken place regularly since the eighties. I just use it to put scale on the number os shootings in the US with 300 million people. Between 2010 and now there have been at least 16 mass shootings in the US.

15 Other Times President Obama Had to Address Mass Shootings During His Presidency http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slat...had_to_address_mass_shootings_during_his.html

What one probably should conclude is that in western English speaking democracies the rate of shootings in the US is about 3 per year and in GB and AU about 1/2 per year. Corrected for population differences that would be about a two to one rate between guns non banned and banned countries in mass shootings.

I think a that a halving of mass shooting is important. So I agree that banning guns, especially weapons used for war, from being possessed is a good thing.

IOW Loren Pechtel,"Oops" isn't appropriate. but, it should be changed to significantly reduced.

At the end of the day I'd argue that the US's high rate of gun violence has more to do with rising internal conflicts and a loss of internal unity that has been consistent over the past fourty-odd years.

While gun restrictions can work under the right circumstances to reduce overall violent crime, it should be noted that in the cases of England and Australia, both are island nations with smaller borders and have a further proximity from nations that export/smuggle illegal firearms (Most gun-related crime in America is committed with illegally owned firearms.) Making it an impractical and ultimately futile endeavor as far as we're concerned.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

At the end of the day I'd argue that the US's high rate of gun violence has more to do with rising internal conflicts and a loss of internal unity that has been consistent over the past fourty-odd years.

While gun restrictions can work under the right circumstances to reduce overall violent crime, it should be noted that in the cases of England and Australia, both are island nations with smaller borders and have a further proximity from nations that export/smuggle illegal firearms (Most gun-related crime in America is committed with illegally owned firearms.) Making it an impractical and ultimately futile endeavor as far as we're concerned.

OK, how about Canada, which is right next to you, has similar demographics to you and has similar crime rates to you - except for the fact that vastly fewer people end up dead.

You're correct that it's not a panacea solution which will solve all of your country's problems in one fell swoop, but it's a step in the right direction and the fact that the first step won't be the last one isn't a reason to not take the first step.

 

[LordKiran]

At the end of the day I'd argue that the US's high rate of gun violence has more to do with rising internal conflicts and a loss of internal unity that has been consistent over the past fourty-odd years.

While gun restrictions can work under the right circumstances to reduce overall violent crime, it should be noted that in the cases of England and Australia, both are island nations with smaller borders and have a further proximity from nations that export/smuggle illegal firearms (Most gun-related crime in America is committed with illegally owned firearms.) Making it an impractical and ultimately futile endeavor as far as we're concerned.

OK, how about Canada, which is right next to you, has similar demographics to you and has similar crime rates to you - except for the fact that vastly fewer people end up dead.

You're correct that it's not a panacea solution which will solve all of your country's problems in one fell swoop, but it's a step in the right direction and the fact that the first step won't be the last one isn't a reason to not take the first step.

What laws would you have us enact in regards to firearms and how would that solve our high gun violence rate in a nation where a majority of gun violence is committed with firearms which are already illegal?

People like to make a big deal about mass shootings because they're shocking and dramatic, but those only account for a small sliver of all gun related injuries and deaths in our country. I submit to you that the problems aren't legally owned fire arms or the people who own them. The problems are larger and complicated issues that are difficult to fix related to our fragmenting populations, gangs that are difficult to root out (unlike other countries, the US has no laws against the formation of armed militias you see. In fact their formation is more or less protected under the law.) A culture that celebrates gun ownership as an inherently positive and patriotic past time rather than regarding and respecting them as tools ect.

 

[none]

OK, how about Canada, which is right next to you, has similar demographics to you and has similar crime rates to you - except for the fact that vastly fewer people end up dead.

You're correct that it's not a panacea solution which will solve all of your country's problems in one fell swoop, but it's a step in the right direction and the fact that the first step won't be the last one isn't a reason to not take the first step.

What laws would you have us enact in regards to firearms and how would that solve our high gun violence rate in a nation where a majority of gun violence is committed with firearms which are already illegal?

People like to make a big deal about mass shootings because they're shocking and dramatic, but those only account for a small sliver of all gun related injuries and deaths in our country. I submit to you that the problems aren't legally owned fire arms or the people who own them. The problems are larger and complicated issues that are difficult to fix related to our fragmenting populations, gangs that are difficult to root out (unlike other countries, the US has no laws against the formation of armed militias you see. In fact their formation is more or less protected under the law.) A culture that celebrates gun ownership as an inherently positive and patriotic past time and ect.

dude,...you just admitted that legal firearms are a bigger problem

 

[Tom Sawyer]

OK, how about Canada, which is right next to you, has similar demographics to you and has similar crime rates to you - except for the fact that vastly fewer people end up dead.

You're correct that it's not a panacea solution which will solve all of your country's problems in one fell swoop, but it's a step in the right direction and the fact that the first step won't be the last one isn't a reason to not take the first step.

What laws would you have us enact in regards to firearms and how would that solve our high gun violence rate in a nation where a majority of gun violence is committed with firearms which are already illegal?

People like to make a big deal about mass shootings because they're shocking and dramatic, but those only account for a small sliver of all gun related injuries and deaths in our country. I submit to you that the problems aren't legally owned fire arms or the people who own them. The problems are larger and complicated issues that are difficult to fix related to our fragmenting populations, gangs that are difficult to root out (unlike other countries, the US has no laws against the formation of armed militias you see. In fact their formation is more or less protected under the law.) A culture that celebrates gun ownership as an inherently positive and patriotic past time and ect.

Well, the first thing that you should do is limit, regulate and track the supply of legal guns. Illegal guns don't just turn up out of the blue. Somebody bought them and then they were stolen or resold illegally. Every step you take to help dry up the main supply source for illegal guns helps to limit the number of illegal guns.

You're correct that mass shootings are a trivial problem next to regular old shootings. You're incorrect that the high rate of legal gun ownership isn't the heart of the problem.

 

[LordKiran]

What laws would you have us enact in regards to firearms and how would that solve our high gun violence rate in a nation where a majority of gun violence is committed with firearms which are already illegal?

People like to make a big deal about mass shootings because they're shocking and dramatic, but those only account for a small sliver of all gun related injuries and deaths in our country. I submit to you that the problems aren't legally owned fire arms or the people who own them. The problems are larger and complicated issues that are difficult to fix related to our fragmenting populations, gangs that are difficult to root out (unlike other countries, the US has no laws against the formation of armed militias you see. In fact their formation is more or less protected under the law.) A culture that celebrates gun ownership as an inherently positive and patriotic past time and ect.

dude,...you just admitted that legal firearms are a bigger problem

How so? I acknowledged that there is an almost fetishistic view of fire arms in my country but this manifests itself in more than one way. It doesn't really change the fact that the majority of gun crime in America is attributable to illegally owned firearms.

 

[none]

dude,...you just admitted that legal firearms are a bigger problem

How so? I acknowledged that there is an almost fetishistic view of fire arms in my country but this manifests itself in more than one way. It doesn't really change the fact that the majority of gun crime in America is attributable to illegally owned firearms.

why do I have to repeat peoples posts back to them for them to understand what the fuck they wrote?
why are you no different?

 

[LordKiran]

What laws would you have us enact in regards to firearms and how would that solve our high gun violence rate in a nation where a majority of gun violence is committed with firearms which are already illegal?

People like to make a big deal about mass shootings because they're shocking and dramatic, but those only account for a small sliver of all gun related injuries and deaths in our country. I submit to you that the problems aren't legally owned fire arms or the people who own them. The problems are larger and complicated issues that are difficult to fix related to our fragmenting populations, gangs that are difficult to root out (unlike other countries, the US has no laws against the formation of armed militias you see. In fact their formation is more or less protected under the law.) A culture that celebrates gun ownership as an inherently positive and patriotic past time and ect.

Well, the first thing that you should do is limit, regulate and track the supply of legal guns.

But we already do this.

Illegal guns don't just turn up out of the blue.

No they're smuggled into the country over the border. It's more common than you might think.

Somebody bought them and then they were stolen or resold illegally.

This is true and is something I personally am in favor of.

Every step you take to help dry up the main supply source for illegal guns helps to limit the number of illegal guns.

You're correct that mass shootings are a trivial problem next to regular old shootings. You're incorrect that the high rate of legal gun ownership isn't the heart of the problem.

The mantra of 'Every little bit helps' is perfectly valid, but there's really only so much legislation can do on it's own.

The best things you can do to reduce gun violence in America are end the war on drugs and increase the economic prosperity of those living in economically depressed or disadvantaged areas.

- - - Updated - - -

How so? I acknowledged that there is an almost fetishistic view of fire arms in my country but this manifests itself in more than one way. It doesn't really change the fact that the majority of gun crime in America is attributable to illegally owned firearms.

why do I have to repeat peoples posts back to them for them to understand what the fuck they wrote?
why are you no different?

I don't know, the same reason you feel the need to be this combative with me when I've neither done or said anything to warrant it. Chill your jets and answer my question.

 

[none]

why do I have to repeat peoples posts back to them for them to understand what the fuck they wrote?
why are you no different?

I don't know, the same reason you feel the need to be this combative with me when I've neither done or said anything to warrant it. Chill your jets and answer my question.

what question, you want me to read your post back to you?
fuck
here it is
you said illegal guns were a sliver of gun deaths and injuries
stupid shit
that means the vast amount of gun injuries and deaths are by legal guns
if that isn't what you meant then don't say things like that

 

[LordKiran]

I don't know, the same reason you feel the need to be this combative with me when I've neither done or said anything to warrant it. Chill your jets and answer my question.

what question, you want me to read your post back to you?
fuck
here it is
you said illegal guns were a sliver of gun deaths and injuries
stupid shit
that means the vast amount of gun injuries and deaths are by legal guns
if that isn't what you meant then don't say things like that

Actually I said that mass shootings were a sliver of overall gun violence, you simply misread my statements.
In the event that I'm just blind tonight then let me state now that what I mean is that legal firearms account for a very small number of all violent crime in America.

In either case, kindly drop the attitude as I don't care for it and it's completely unnecessary to speak to me this way.

 

[none]

what question, you want me to read your post back to you?
fuck
here it is
you said illegal guns were a sliver of gun deaths and injuries
stupid shit
that means the vast amount of gun injuries and deaths are by legal guns
if that isn't what you meant then don't say things like that

Actually I said that mass shootings were a sliver of overall gun violence, you simply misread my statements.
In the event that I'm just blind tonight then let me state now that what I mean is that legal firearms account for a very small number of all violent crime in America.

In either case, kindly drop the attitude as I don't care for it and it's completely unnecessary to speak to me this way.

oh I thought you were talking about guns
which you were which is supported by what you said
you think that the vast majority of gun deaths and injuries are caused by legal firearms?
what attitude?

 

[LordKiran]

Actually I said that mass shootings were a sliver of overall gun violence, you simply misread my statements.
In the event that I'm just blind tonight then let me state now that what I mean is that legal firearms account for a very small number of all violent crime in America.

In either case, kindly drop the attitude as I don't care for it and it's completely unnecessary to speak to me this way.

oh I thought you were talking about guns
what attitude?

The language you're using is overly aggressive to the point of coming off as hostile.

 

[none]

oh I thought you were talking about guns
what attitude?

The language you're using is overly aggressive to the point of coming off as hostile.

well then you shouldn't have said what you said and then play stupid about it
I edited my post prior to your reply, try again

oh I thought you were talking about guns
which you were, which is supported by what you said
you think that the vast majority of gun deaths and injuries are caused by legal firearms?
what attitude?

 

[bilby]

It's been a mantra of the gun-banners on here.

Oops:

Australia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Hectorville_siege

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Sydney_hostage_crisis

England:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumbria_shootings

What a crock. Please provide a quote from ANYBODY on here saying that 'gun bans prevent mass shootings'.

Gun restrictions and tight regulation of gun ownership massively reduces mass shootings.

That makes restricting gun ownership and regulating it tightly a very good idea.

That we should not be "making perfect the enemy of good" is something of a mantra of at least one poster on here:

You're letting perfect be the enemy of good.

... what you are doing it going for perfect--which is as usual the enemy of good.

Guns are NOT banned in Australia nor in England. But they are tightly regulated.

The main benefit of this with regards to illegal guns is that it means that a gun seen by a cop in public is grounds for an arrest; and it means that severe penalties can be imposed on people found with guns in public - even in the absence of any other offence.

When you don't need to prove that the guy with the gun was planning to rob a bank, in order to arrest and charge him, criminals quickly find that carrying (or even owning) a gun is not worth the risk. An English petty criminal doesn't want the risk that a gun will be found if police search his home. A US petty criminal needn't worry - merely finding a gun in his nightstand is not sufficient for the police to drag him off to jail.

In England (and more recently in Australia), this has meant a much smaller number of guns used by criminals, compared with the USA. That's a GOOD THING, even if the decline has not been to zero.

Australian and English hunters and target shooters still have the means available to participate in their chosen sports. What they can't do is go around armed in public. So when road rage strikes, they have to resort to punches, rather than bullets (or blades - knives are also restricted in both jurisdictions).

What a dreadful OP:

Straw Man + Confirmation Bias =/= Logic.

 

[LordKiran]

The language you're using is overly aggressive to the point of coming off as hostile.

well then you shouldn't have said what you said and then play stupid about it
I edited my post prior to your reply, try again

oh I thought you were talking about guns
which you were, which is supported by what you said
you think that the vast majority of gun deaths and injuries are caused by legal firearms?
what attitude?

You're the one who's misinterpreting me. -_- Are you trolling me right now?

 

[none]

well then you shouldn't have said what you said and then play stupid about it
I edited my post prior to your reply, try again

oh I thought you were talking about guns
which you were, which is supported by what you said
you think that the vast majority of gun deaths and injuries are caused by legal firearms?
what attitude?

You're the one who's misinterpreting me. -_- Are you trolling me right now?

no I asked you to clarify, maybe not formally
here:
do you think more injuries and death is caused by legal guns or by illegal guns?

 

[ZiprHead]

My two cents: I believe all hand gun possession by anyone other than law enforcement and certified security personnel should be illegal and severely punished.

I know, it's just a dream...