Is every "Miracle" a violation of "Free Will?"

[T.G.G. Moogly]

This would seem to be the case but I've never seen a discussion on the subject.

If a magic spaceman changes events in a person's life so that the person's life has a different outcome, that is interference in that person's free will I would think. Whether those decisions were conscious or not isn't important. If the spaceman saves a person from murder then lives have of both the victim and the murder have taken a direction contrary to free will.

A miraculous event therefore is the suspension of free will.

 

[Ovazor]

If a person is suffering from a deadly medical condition, and would rather than he was not, and *poof* - the spaceman cures him, how would that interfere with that person's free will?

 

[fast]

This would seem to be the case but I've never seen a discussion on the subject.

If a magic spaceman changes events in a person's life so that the person's life has a different outcome, that is interference in that person's free will I would think. Whether those decisions were conscious or not isn't important. If the spaceman saves a person from murder then lives have of both the victim and the murder have taken a direction contrary to free will.

A miraculous event therefore is the suspension of free will.

It would not be an interference of free will, and conscious decisions are important to the matter at hand. Free will is the ability to do as one pleases without compulsion.

If a dog wants to run to its owner but is restrained by a chain, then we have a case where 1) the dog wants to do something (want is important) and 2) compelled, in this case restrained as opposed to constrained, from doing what he wants (and compulsion is important).

If a dog wants to run to its owner yet there is no chain, we cannot rule out compulsory forces. For instance, if the dog knows that it may be punished, that is a compulsory force that the dog may or may not decide to ignore, but it's still a compulsory force. That's why a kidnap victim that decides to not run when she can is still compelled to stay despite an ability to run.

Interestingly enough, the law is a compelling force to keep speeders reasonably within the speed limits, even though they can overcome that force, yet a person that wants to obey the law is not driving against their will to drive within limits if in fact the driver wants to drive within established safety limits.

 

[Bronzeage]

This would seem to be the case but I've never seen a discussion on the subject.

If a magic spaceman changes events in a person's life so that the person's life has a different outcome, that is interference in that person's free will I would think. Whether those decisions were conscious or not isn't important. If the spaceman saves a person from murder then lives have of both the victim and the murder have taken a direction contrary to free will.

A miraculous event therefore is the suspension of free will.

"Free will" is a mercurial substance. I'm not sure what kind of calculus would be needed to take a snapshot of what was willed at any point in time.

Right now, my free will is wondering what the point of the question might be. Free will, whatever definition is used, is influenced by many factors, most of which aren't apparent at the time. To say some event intervenes and changes what we thought would be the immediate course of events, is no more a violation of free will, than a sudden thundershower which causes me to decide to wait a few minutes before walking to my car.

Of course, this means I am not in my car and I'm not driving when another car smashes into me.

The question frames "free will" as if it is some kind of virtue and and anything which changes it's probable course is a kind of corruption of good. There's no sense in that, and not any kind of reflection of reality.

 

[Keith&Co.]

If a magic spaceman changes events in a person's life so that the person's life has a different outcome,

Different from what?
If there's a 'supposed to' outcome, then we have no free will, anyway.

 

[DBT]

No different to the World at large changing our circumstances on daily basis. Happens all the time, we didn't get to choose the circumstances of our birth, parents, culture, language, family economic and social position, the words and actions of those around us, the diseases and afflictions we get over our lifetime, etc, most which recover from or we manage until something comes along that kills us....

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

No different to the World at large changing our circumstances on daily basis. Happens all the time, we didn't get to choose the circumstances of our birth, parents, culture, language, family economic and social position, the words and actions of those around us, the diseases and afflictions we get over our lifetime, etc, most which recover from or we manage until something comes along that kills us....

That's what I meant. We make decisions and those decisions we live out for better or worse. But then we are denied the path those decisions would have taken us on and end up elsewhere, again, for better or worse.

True again, random things happen, unless we are deterministic, but all those random events are naturally occurring and understandable. Alleged miracles are not the same thing.

 

[DBT]

True again, random things happen, unless we are deterministic, but all those random events are naturally occurring and understandable. Alleged miracles are not the same thing.

Obviously miracles are not the same as naturally occurring events (if miracles exist), nevertheless miracles as with naturally occurring events (getting sick no more a 'freely willed' choice or decision than its miraculous cure), act upon us, effect changes to our wellbeing, regardless.

 

[Lion IRC]

...If the spaceman saves a person from murder then lives have of both the victim and the murder have taken a direction contrary to free will.

Change the word spaceman to police man and explain why the situation is any different.
The policeman has his own free will just like the victim and the attacker. And the intersection of each of the separate autonomous free wills of three different people doesn't seem to undermine freedom of choice.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Ya, the question doesn't seem to make much sense. A person doing something else because God did him a favour doesn't seem much different from his doing something else because some other random dude did him a favour. I don't know why it would factor in with free will in any way. That has to do with how we choose to act given the situations we find ourselves in, not the details of how we end up finding ourselves in those situations.

It does, though, raise the question of why God is answering the prayer in the first place as opposed to making the prayer unnecessary. If God is planning to cure someone of cancer when they ask him to, why not just not have him get cancer in the first place? If he's planning to save someone from a murderer when the guy prays for that while running away screaming, why not just have the murderer not cross his path and avoid the situation entirely? It seems that someone who can see the future would be able to be more preemptive in how he goes about dealing with things when the events from that future which he's choosing to intervene in come about.

 

[DBT]

...If the spaceman saves a person from murder then lives have of both the victim and the murder have taken a direction contrary to free will.

Change the word spaceman to police man and explain why the situation is any different.
The policeman has his own free will just like the victim and the attacker. And the intersection of each of the separate autonomous free wills of three different people doesn't seem to undermine freedom of choice.

All participants have proclivities and imperatives that drive their decision making process, the policeman may have preferred to be at home with his family but had to act according to work procedure, the victim had an appointment to keep, the spaceman belongs to a pathological, heart on their sleeve. do good at all cost society. Social conditioning, compulsions, habits, duress, peer pressure, addictions, obligations, etc, etc...decision making itself does not equate to 'free will'

 

[Valjean]

Not a violation of free will, but a violation of the laws of physics.

 

[DBT]

The proposition of free will is a violation of the laws of physics.

 

[Lion IRC]

You still have to reconcile the laws of physics with free will.

Gravity which is a predictable and measurable force causes the apple to fall from the tree.

But my (unpredictable) free will can act upon the matter of my arm/hand and the apple picking it up and moving it - lifting it up in the opposite direction of gravity. Am I violating the 'free will' of the apple?

Agent/Mechanism. Rock, lever, fulcrum (no free will) all obeying the laws pf physics. Man acting unpredictably exercising his free will.

 

[Lion IRC]

OK we know how the rock/lever/fulcrum work.
Now cue the "why questions".

Why is the man lifting the rock? It's not as if there is no reason.

 

[Atheos]

...If the spaceman saves a person from murder then lives have of both the victim and the murder have taken a direction contrary to free will.

Change the word spaceman to police man and explain why the situation is any different.
The policeman has his own free will just like the victim and the attacker. And the intersection of each of the separate autonomous free wills of three different people doesn't seem to undermine freedom of choice.

Change the word spaceman to policeman and the situation becomes vastly different. A policeman, if he knew that someone was about to rape and kill an 8 year old girl, would likely do everything in his power to prevent the rapist from exercising his free will. Hypothetically given a spaceman with absolute knowledge that the rape is going to happen, unrestricted ability to stop the rape from happening and unabated desire to prevent the rape from happening the only mystery left is why the rape would happen.

If the spaceman prefers to let free will reign then he doesn't have unabated desire to prevent the rape. The desire to prevent the rape is abated by the greater desire to allow free will.

I've never heard a rationalization for this problem that didn't involve trying to sneak the power down on at least one of the three Tri's of the Tri-Omni spaceman. I know that's not what we started with but that's the explanation of the difference between the spaceman and the policeman in this hypothetical discussion.

 

[DBT]

OK we know how the rock/lever/fulcrum work.
Now cue the "why questions".

Why is the man lifting the rock? It's not as if there is no reason.

Probably because he has to earn a living, he probably would prefer to be doing something else. He is probably as much a tool of the system and its demands, life and its demands as is the rock/fulcrum/lever his. Then consider his own non chosen neuronal makeup governing his aptitudes and abilities, the way he sees the world, thinks, feels and acts...and there goes all notion of 'free' will.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

The spaceman told Abraham to kill his son, and Abraham was happily about the deed. But then the spaceman sent another spaceman to stop him, at least according to the story about Abraham, Isaac and the spaceman.

Did either of the spacemen in this story violate Abraham's free will?

 

[Lion IRC]

No.

And I think both you and Atheos are confusing free will (intent) with ability.

If the policeman puts me in handcuffs he isn't violating my free will - I still want to escape.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

OK we know how the rock/lever/fulcrum work.
Now cue the "why questions".

Why is the man lifting the rock? It's not as if there is no reason.

According to Paul's theology, all is predetermined by God. God's Providence. The man literally has no free will. Why then do men do evil? Augustine, Luther and Calvin's answwer. God is incomprehensible and beyond human understanding.

Islam is no better on the issue of free will. Does this work for you?